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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: dstark]
    #8624488 - 07/12/08 07:22 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

The venom will have to be purified.  I think they use vacuum to draw it through a micron filter prior to freeze drying.  Since it's not heat stable, you have to add it to already sterilized and cooled agar, just before it solidifies.  It's certainly not a home-type operation, even if you do have a flowhood and freeze drying equipment.
RR


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Invisibledumbfounded1600
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: dstark]
    #8624695 - 07/12/08 09:18 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

dstark said:
Be carfull guys! that was a snake byte might cause!

















here is the snake


Goodluck and be SAFE!!!






Is that you dstark? Regardless i'da cut hat fuckers head off and manslaughter the whole race. If it was in self defense though you learn.


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Offlinedstark
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: dumbfounded1600]
    #8628287 - 07/13/08 06:01 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

No its not me...

Just an example of what unsafty might cause -.-


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #8644589 - 07/16/08 09:10 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
The venom will have to be purified.  I think they use vacuum to draw it through a micron filter prior to freeze drying.  Since it's not heat stable, you have to add it to already sterilized and cooled agar, just before it solidifies.  It's certainly not a home-type operation, even if you do have a flowhood and freeze drying equipment.
RR




Naw, you can do it at home just fine if you have a spare syringe barrel and a $5 micropore filter.  Not terribly difficult, I filter sterilize things all the time.

I don't really see any reason to freeze dry it either since you'll just be reconstituting it again anyways.  As long as you don't have to store it that long you shouldn't need the freeze drying.


-FF


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OfflineMycoAu
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: fastfred]
    #8646797 - 07/17/08 12:22 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

You might need to have a low-protein-binding filter to do it though.  What exactly is the venom?  (I'm being lazy asking instead of searching, sorry.)

I don't see any reason it wouldn't work just fine with the appropriate syringe filter.

Just be careful not to stick yourself with a needle!


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Offlinetrikki
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #8674295 - 07/23/08 11:20 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

:nothingtoadd:


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InvisibleMeltingPenguin
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: fastfred]
    #8721465 - 08/03/08 08:54 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Crap, that snakebite arm reminds me of a nightmare I had.  What's that netting they put over it?  Is that how they do a skin graft?


From what I know about snakes they either have hemotoxin (rattle snakes) or neurotoxin (sea snakes i.e.)  Hemotoxin which is known for rapidly breaking down blood cells.  Like in the pics the skin and muscle basically melts off as all the blood vessels are destroyed. I'm guessing that if rattlesnake hemotoxin breaks down spore and mycelium cell walls then any hemotoxin could possibly work.  I'm not sure if there is anything specific about rattlesnake vemon that allows it work on mushrooms, it was probably just abundant, available and the first type of hemotoxin they tested.  If that's true then any hemotoxin could work, in the right amounts which includes many snakes, all vipers that I know of, and other types too.  Also some spiders, (not sure which ones), some scorpions, bearded lizards and gila monsters, etc... 

I'm not sure if bees have hemo or nuero toxin, but i'm almost certain the have hemotoxin.  If they have hemo then that could be a safe and cheap alternative to getting your hands on some working venom.  It wouldn't be difficult to trick a captured bee into releasing it's venom sack into something soft where it could be collected.  Who knows how much you'd need...  Bee's have a lot less venom then snakes, and I don't think it's as potent, but then again spores aren't very big.

Who else can think of a safer (then snakes) way to get some hemotoxin for testing?


:Edit:  i just learned that some rattlesnakes like the Mojave Rattlesnake have a mixture of hemo and nuero venom.


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Edited by MeltingPenguin (08/03/08 09:13 PM)


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InvisiblePinback
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: MeltingPenguin]
    #8723191 - 08/04/08 08:44 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I find the whole rattlesnake toxin deal a bit fishy. Why use a haemotoxin to weaken a chitinous cell wall? Can't find any publications of people using the method either (only the Holliday paper and their patent). Not before and not after. It would be interesting to hear what a real mycologist (specialized in hybridization of course :smile:) would say about it.


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OfflinePsoulocybe
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: Pinback]
    #8733193 - 08/06/08 11:10 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I am almost excited for the day one of the novices here gets in serious trouble with a snake.

Who was it that recommended arm length thick rubber gloves......?  Go shoot yourself.  That is the most sure fire way of getting a bite somewhere other than your hand.

The only safe way to handle a snake is to respect it and give it distance.  I use hooks 99.9% of the time.  I've free handled more snakes than I can count, but that's 15 years of experience with DNR studies and working in a breeding facility.  Not picking them up from under logs on my family camping trip.  If you have to handle one for conservation or observation, you should always be in the company of at least one other experienced handler and ensure you are in a "Hot Room" to ensure the safety of others in the area.  Please don't think that you guys need to be collecting snake venom to make some "Special Mushroom."


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: Psoulocybe]
    #8739346 - 08/07/08 02:29 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

It would be interesting to hear what a real mycologist (specialized in hybridization of course :smile:) would say about it.




John Holliday IS a real mycologist.  Write him to ask for more info if you wish.  He owns www.alohamedicinals.com

This whole damn thread has drifted way off topic and is about to get locked.

This is the advanced mycology forum. It's not intended to be a forum on snake handling safety.  Nobody is going to grab a snake from under a log and extract purified venom from it.  That's why specialty labs that produce purified, freeze dried venom can charge(and receive) four to five times the street price per gram of cocaine for their product.

Anyone with actual experience to relate may feel free to do so.  As far as I know, I'm the only member of the shroomery who has used purified snake venom in mycology experiments, and have already written of my experiences.
RR


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Invisiblecricket
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: dstark]
    #9104012 - 10/20/08 12:26 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

The doctors made things worse for the guy in the pics.
In the olden days... Dr.s were quick to try cutting you open, saying that swelling tissue squeezed by tight skin caused extra tissue damage, as well as restricting blood flow to good tissue, and that splitting the skin was the only way they could save the limb.
The real deal is that it is easier for them to stitch a strait line then the jagged spirals that happen on the (VERY RARE) occasions swelling gets bad enough to tear the skin.
Not to mention the boat payments you will make for them while paying for tissue scraping sessions, heavy duty antibiotics for secondary infections, skin grafts, muscular reconstruction, and rehab. On top of the cost for Antivenin, transport, hospital stay.

They now say that you are NOT to split the skin like that.
Turns out that the swelling can help to stop the spread of the venom. The rate of deadly, secondary infection is very high. AND... Studies have shown that in may cases the tissue damage is less, and the healing faster if left alone.

This thread has been going for a while. Don't know about everyone else but I would like to SEE some results.

OH, BY THE WAY...
 
I have Broadband Copperhead and Western Diamondback venom available. Sterile collected and dried under vacuum at room temp. Trust me this venom is still very active.

I WILL NOT HAND THIS SHIT OVER TO JUST ANYBODY!!! NO PM'S
Convince me you have done your research on both. Mycological procedures and snakebite protocol.
NO PM's. 
Post what you know.
The process you will use.
How you will safely, handle the venom samples. 
What you will do if you envenom-ate yourself.
I WILL NOT HAND THIS SHIT OVER TO JUST ANYBODY!!! NO PM'S
 

Quote:

dstark said:
Be carfull guys! that was a snake byte might cause!

















here is the snake


Goodluck and be SAFE!!!




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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: cricket] * 1
    #9104463 - 10/20/08 02:22 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Slightly off topic, but for those of you who are exposed to the possibility of snake bite, I learned something the other day in EMT training.  The latest thing to treat venomous snake bites is high voltage, low current DC electric shock.  If administered within minutes of the bite, it will completely neutralize the venom.

The easiest way to get the correct voltage is with those BBQ grill push button igniters that create a spark to light the grill.  Get one of them and attach a washer to one terminal to hold your fingers against, and then touch the patient with the tip and push the button while holding the patient near the bite with your other hand.  The electric shock will travel through both you and the victim, and you'll feel the jolt, but it's not too bad.  Administer a few dozen shocks around the bite, and by the time the patient gets to the hospital, there will be no sign of venom in his or her body.

The theory of operation is that the voltage destroys the protein, which is what venom is composed of.  At least that's what the instructor said.  He's used it a few dozen times in Arizona and Southern California, and each time the patient has had zero effects from the bite, IF administered within half an hour of the bite.

Those of you who handle snakes would do well to get one at a hardware store and keep it handy.  I bought two, one each for my wife's and my own first aid kits that we take hiking.
RR


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #9104481 - 10/20/08 02:26 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Thats pretty darn cool Roger. Thanks for the tip.

LIPA


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: lipa]
    #9123193 - 10/23/08 07:48 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I wouldn't put too much faith in a grill lighter saving you from a snakebite.  Seems there is some conflicting research in the literature.

Quote:


Electric shock does not save snakebitten rats
Annals of Emergency Medicine, Volume 17, Issue 3, March 1988, Pages 254-256
Nathan R Howe, John L Meisenheimer Jr

A team of missionary doctors from Ecuador recently described striking success in the treatment of venomous snakebites with a series of brief, high-voltage, low-current electric shocks applied to the bite site. We designed a randomized, controlled, blinded test of their methods in laboratory rats. Venom of the fer-de-lance, Bothrops atrox, was injected subcutaneously into rats in a series of increasing doses. Half of each dose group then was shocked with a device used by the Ecuadoran group. Envenomated animals developed hemorrhagic ulcers at the injection sites, the size of which was strongly related to venom dose. Electric shock did not influence the development of morbidity or the eventual ulcer size in sublethally envenomated animals, nor did shocks reduce mortality in lethally envenomated animals. We conclude that shocks are without effect on snakebitten rats, and we discuss implications of our findings for the treatment of snakebitten human beings.




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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: fastfred]
    #9123296 - 10/23/08 08:06 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah. I ran into that article too and now I have second thoughts about it.


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Invisiblecricket
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: lipa]
    #9129442 - 10/24/08 11:16 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

electric shock has been proven not to work on any type of venom.


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OfflineJuke Adro
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: cricket]
    #9133307 - 10/25/08 06:39 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

If I was bitten I would still zap the shit out of my self till help came, it may act differently on humans.


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Offlinemushroomhunter10
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #9133634 - 10/25/08 07:50 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Strange. To say the least.


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Invisiblerugergirl79
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: mushroomhunter10]
    #9133708 - 10/25/08 08:04 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

check this out....it is also used for bees, scorpions and spider bites......very interesting rodger...you seem to have a  plethora of knowledge in your skull.  :thumbup:                          bees, spiders, snakes, and scorpions.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: rugergirl79]
    #9133842 - 10/25/08 08:30 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

It works on rattlesnakes for sure.  The ambulance drivers in southern california carry the bbq grill igniters with them and that's what they use.  I trust my EMT instructor who's used it many times, and he's the one I learned it from.  Since I now live in Eastern WA and hike in rattlesnake country, I carry one all the time.  I'm actually more worried about my dog getting bit than me.  She has to chase all the squirrels, and really doesn't pay much attention to where she goes.

As for the above referenced study with rats, it must be remembered that rattlesnakes secrete venom into the rats not just to kill them, but to start the digestive process.  When a snake bites a human, it's more of a warning and not nearly as much venom is deposited.  Since snakes can control the amount of venom they inject, they conserve it for food.  Don't put much weight to the FDA not approving the device for treatment.  They consider their main mission to protect the profits of the drug companies, not the health of the public.  Sad but true.
RR


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