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Offlinecdlove69
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what causes degeneration?
    #791613 - 08/01/02 10:55 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

okay, I got a question for you advanced people that know some info on degenerating strains.

1. Will growing over and over a strain by making your own spore prints cause the strain to degenerate?

2. If the above question is true, how do you obtain a good strain? Once the strain starts to degenerate, Do you have to go pick a wild strain and redo isolates?

3. If the strain has degenerated, are there ways to improve the strain?

4. What's the best way to keep the strain healthy?

5. What will aid in degeneration of strains?

and any other information pertaining to the degeneration or strains would be appreciated....

thanks, I have some wild prints to work with but I don't want to lose them to degeneration because don't live anywhere close or have the time where I can go pick some wild strains and start the isolates over....


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Edited by cdlove69 (08/01/02 11:22 PM)


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: what causes degeneration? [Re: cdlove69]
    #792063 - 08/02/02 08:32 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

1. Degenerated? No. changed from the original? Yes. It won't be called degeneration, it would be called selective breeding. It reflects evolution, not damage to the genetic code. Degeneration is caused by the culture you are using being too far from the original culture (measured in cell reproductions). After so many cellular reproductions, genetic damage becomes evident. Isolating strains from spores will usually allow one to select isolates without the damage.

2. Whenever you go back to spores, you will likelly be able to avoid a true degenerated strain. If you want to avoid the possible trouble of selectively breeding a strain to certain conditions, varry the conditions every few generations. Mostly by substrate type, although varrying the environment will allow you to not select for environment as well.

3/4. If the strain is degenerated, there is no way to improve it. You must either return to spores and hope you can isolate another strain that shows no damage. Or you can take the strain back in time. A spore print from the first generation, or a culture which has been stored early in the strains existence effectively returns you to where you started out. Cultures can be stored on petri dishes, in slanted test tubes of agar, or my favorite distilled water. Keep refrigerated. Cover the agar in petris or slants with mineral oil if you plan on storing them for more than a year.

Ok, basically what you need to do is prevent degeneration. Save the spores as well as you can. Never use all of the original spores. Take several spore prints of the first generation. Then, put cultures of your isolates into storage early in their life. Typically, the first petri dish that shows a pure isolated culture is used to innoc slants which are put in storage.

Saving cultures over long periods of time is a lot more trouble to the home cultivator than storign prints. Do you really need to save the isolates, or can you just make 20 or so prints from the first generation to save?


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: what causes degeneration? [Re: mycofile]
    #792151 - 08/02/02 09:32 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I've wondered why there arent substrate specific spore races, such as EQ4BRF, or PRStraw.

I've been expecting it for a while, but have yet to see it happen.


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Offlinecdlove69
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Re: what causes degeneration? [Re: mycofile]
    #792229 - 08/02/02 10:16 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

so your saying that if I just use keep reproducing with spore prints degeneration will not happen... but changing of the strain will happen...

say i grow out a strain, take the print of the healthiest and grow out another batch, take another print of the healthiest and grow it out and do this over and over several times.

Will I be in a way improving on the race? Will the prints from the 50th generation be similar to the 1st generation?

But, if I cloned and cloned then the 50th generation will probably be degenerated from the 1st generation correct?

Also, if I selectively breed a race to certain conditions, will it be a failure at different conditions? Like say if I breed a race for BRF for several generations (around say 10-15), but then I switch to grains or birdseed, would the change in conditions produce poor results? Would I have to breed the race to be able to accept the new conditions so I can get good results?


--------------------
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OfflineDinoMyc
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Re: what causes degeneration? [Re: mycofile]
    #792571 - 08/02/02 01:16 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I may be wrong, but I believe you are refering to senescense (essentially a specific mycelium network 'getting old') when you say that returning to spores will yield a, likely, (bad choice of word) 'un-degenerated' or 'de-degenerated' strain.
Strains, even when propagated via spores, often degenerate. An example is the PF, aka matis romaro, strain/spore 'race', which recently reverted to a stored culture/spore print from several years prior.
Staments spends quite some time on the necessity of storing strains and cultures for long periods to 'start anew', as it were, in TMC or GGMM, perhaps both.
It is generally accpeted that the cause of degeneration is the extremely sterile, consistant substrate, controlled conditions, etc. common with cultivation which results in problems with the genetic code somewhere along the line...
As Mycofile said, just store original prints, or periodically start from wild prints..
enjoy.


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Edited by DinoMyc (08/02/02 01:17 PM)


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Offlinecdlove69
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Re: what causes degeneration? [Re: DinoMyc]
    #792913 - 08/02/02 05:12 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

DinoMyc (or anyone), if that's true about how spores too can degenerate, then do the spores that the vendors obtain come from wild spores or a parent every several generations they sell?

Also, since I really am not capable of keeping cultures for a long period of time, who best do you recommend on going to for getting the "parent" spores?

So if I change the conditions every few generations will that help aid healthy genetics of the strain race?


--------------------
Hi Mr. Po-Po... I'm drunk!!!

The Little Guy! <-- Best Syringes I've recieved!
The Hawks Eye <-- Best prints I've recieved!
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OfflineDinoMyc
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Re: what causes degeneration? [Re: cdlove69]
    #793288 - 08/02/02 08:50 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Many spore vendors, especially the older ones, keep old prints around or old cultures around in case problems occur.
Look up Tampanensis and read about the previous and the new (older) strains, and the difference. (sporeworks may be able to provide more info for you http://www.sporeworks.com/tampanen.html)
It is not just changing the conditions, there are other factors which you (likely) cannot reproduce or control, some (perhaps many) of which we simply do not know yet.
I will not endorse any vendor over another, as I have no emperical evidence that any one offers a strain which is farther from degeneration, with the exception of PF's problems with his matis romaro (PF classic) strain, which has been (mostly?) corrected as of now.


--------------------
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I merely came to listen, came to say.


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Offlinecdlove69
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Re: what causes degeneration? [Re: DinoMyc]
    #794470 - 08/03/02 03:47 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

okay, thanks for letting me know....

does anyone know about how many generations it will take before the strain race starts to show degeneration?


--------------------
Hi Mr. Po-Po... I'm drunk!!!

The Little Guy! <-- Best Syringes I've recieved!
The Hawks Eye <-- Best prints I've recieved!
The Sporeworks <-- Awesome service


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OfflineDinoMyc
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Re: what causes degeneration? [Re: cdlove69]
    #794501 - 08/03/02 04:14 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

To the best of my knowledge it is undeterminable, much like the strain life of plastics. There are too many unknown or unobserved factors to truly specify any number.


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Offlinecdlove69
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Re: what causes degeneration? [Re: DinoMyc]
    #794535 - 08/03/02 04:41 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

okay... thanks


--------------------
Hi Mr. Po-Po... I'm drunk!!!

The Little Guy! <-- Best Syringes I've recieved!
The Hawks Eye <-- Best prints I've recieved!
The Sporeworks <-- Awesome service


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Invisiblenonsence
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Re: what causes degeneration? [Re: mycofile]
    #799424 - 08/06/02 08:25 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

thanks for the thorough reply mycofile. cdlove69's question is one that i have always wondered about and now i know.


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: what causes degeneration? [Re: nonsence]
    #799904 - 08/06/02 12:45 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

How long does it take to show degeneration? Probably a relatively small range of numbers of cell divisions. Likely hundreds of millions at least quite possibly billions of cell divisions.

I've personally seen a strain grown via cloning for over a year using an agar/grain/grain to grain/bulk substrate/repeat via cloning, method without returning to a "younger" culture.

Stamets gives us a bit of a clue by showing how to turn a petri dish into a thousand gallon jars of grain, then using the grain to innoculate up to 8000 sq. ft. of deep compost beds. He gives no warnings about degeneration in this method. The number of cell divisions required to do it is nearly impossible for a home cultivator to reach in a short amount of time.

Basically, few home cultivators will ever run into true degeneration. I would be suspect of other problems if one thinks they've run across it...


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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OfflineMycena
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Re: what causes degeneration? [Re: mycofile]
    #1637062 - 06/16/03 11:40 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

There is also the other question that has plague me for a while...

If monokaryotic germinanats can steal additional nuclei from dead spores to form the dikaryon , and stronger strains can genetically hijack weaker strains then might it be possible that old and unstable mycelium growing over the top of sterile spores of its own species might pick up the material and incorporate it, thereby producing new subvariants of the parent strain and rejuvenating it

Or if an old dikaryon begginning to sctor came into contact with a healthy monokaryon - would hybrids form?

If this was to occur in the wild it would explain why some mycelial mats (Armillaria) seem to persist forever (ooo's of years)

If this were the case then the old cultures in storage of species like Tamp and mex that were so difficult to fruit before the new material arrived could be ressurected as hybrids

In culture multiple generations will only degrade the spore race if no care is taken in selection, if muatants and poor yielding strains are tolerated and disseminated
I see the same thing with animal breeds - especially dog breeds kept as house pets. Over pampered pooches with severe phsysical and behavioural dysfunction and a decreasing ability to function for the purpose the breed was made - they should really be sterilised. They have pups and are given away and so on and so forth until the line dies out or degenerates to a useless mutt.
So in the same light while we need many breeds please dont give out spores from shitty islolates and give them the parents spore race title

Nature is viciously selective and when we remove the beast from this and redecide the criteria we need to be equally as ruthless in order to preserve it

Has anyone here gone to the effort to make Hybrids of spore races?
it requires a little skill and a clean working environment to do the dilutions as well as a microscope to pick out the monokaryotic mycelium


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: what causes degeneration? [Re: Mycena]
    #1637169 - 06/16/03 12:59 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Wow, resurrecting an old one here, eh?

Anyway, I'm not familiar with the process you describe of a monokaryon stealing nucliei from dead spores. Never heard of it. The only thing I've heard of monokaryon doing is mating with other compatible monokaryon.

Stronger strains can and do hijack weaker strains, but I think making it happen in a controlled manner would be problematic at best.

Quote:

Or if an old dikaryon begginning to sctor came into contact with a healthy monokaryon - would hybrids form



maybe. or how about, maybe sometimes. Again the problem would be getting it to happen in a controlled manner so that one knew it had happened and was able to verify that some genetic exchange had occurred, then culturing the new strain. Again, problematic.

Quote:

Has anyone here gone to the effort to make Hybrids of spore races?
it requires a little skill and a clean working environment to do the dilutions as well as a microscope to pick out the monokaryotic mycelium



I've never heard of anybody who was really trying it. Just people doing crapshots by mixing spores in a syringe, nocing a cake and calling it a hybrid. I did isolate some monokaryons when I was in college and had access to a scope. Managed to get two to mate, but the resulting strain was crap, grew slow, never fruited. When I realized I would have to do it many times to get a good culture, I gave up, not seeing it as worth the effort. It was a good learning experience, but I don't think we'll get much better cube strains simply by mixing cube strains.

Also, after re-reading this thread, I'd like to clarify some of the earlier posts. A strain will not degrade simply from repeated printing. It may become substrate specific, due to evolution, or may show some other change. Typically the home grower won't even run into this problem, but you could. Also, even most substrate specific strains only perform better on their preferred media, but will also perform on other media. The problems with the PF strain referenced above were not a result of this repeated printing process as alluded above. The problem with the pf strain was a genetic mutation, caused by exposure to uv light.


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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