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Lion
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Questioning one's assumptions about human nature
#7915104 - 01/22/08 03:07 PM (16 years, 10 days ago) |
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I am reading After the Ecstacy, the Laundry by Jack Kornfield. It's a wonderful book about the obstacles one encounters on the spiritual path after having had glimpses of awakening, and about how to bring one's spiritual practice into all facets of life.
There was an anecdote that took me by surprise. The Dalai Lama, meeting with Western students of Buddhism, was asked by one practitioner how to overcome the self-loathing, self-critical, self-hateful side of one's being. The Dalai Lama was astonished! He honestly did not know that such a side of being existed. There was simply no notion in Tibetan culture of self-loathing. This surprised me because I tend to take it for granted that everyone in human existence, whether they are on a spiritual path or not, has a self-denying side - that it is an integral part of the human psyche. But like so much else that we take for granted in this immature Western culture, this is not so. Deeply ingrained cultural programming is often mistaken for some kind of fundamental truth. We always have to challenge our assumptions and the most basic supports of our worldview.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Icelander
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Re: Questioning one's assumptions about human nature [Re: Lion]
#7915207 - 01/22/08 03:28 PM (16 years, 10 days ago) |
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There was simply no notion in Tibetan culture of self-loathing.
I doubt this. It may not be as prevalent as here but it certainly exists. The Dali Lama is not authority on human psychology.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Lion
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Re: Questioning one's assumptions about human nature [Re: Icelander]
#7916451 - 01/22/08 07:07 PM (16 years, 10 days ago) |
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How do you know that it certainly exists there? Maybe your early conditioning has closed you to the possibility of cultures existing where self-hatred is unheard of and where physical incarnation is not looked upon negatively, but reverently.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Questioning one's assumptions about human nature [Re: Lion]
#7916490 - 01/22/08 07:14 PM (16 years, 10 days ago) |
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There where? In Tibet? Do you mean that you actually think that not a single one Tibetan felt self loathing?
Have you ever closely watched a cat or a dog? Or better yet, wild animals from documentaries, where you can't say they their behavior is vitiated by humans. Did you ever notice certain attitudes which pointed towards shame? I did. I am almost entirely positive that every conscious living creature has felt self loathing (or any other related feeling), at least once in their lives.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Re: Questioning one's assumptions about human nature [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7916527 - 01/22/08 07:18 PM (16 years, 10 days ago) |
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I could see where someone who was revered as a god ever since childhood might not encounter much self-loathing.
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Icelander
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Re: Questioning one's assumptions about human nature [Re: Lion]
#7916552 - 01/22/08 07:22 PM (16 years, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
Lion said: How do you know that it certainly exists there? Maybe your early conditioning has closed you to the possibility of cultures existing where self-hatred is unheard of and where physical incarnation is not looked upon negatively, but reverently.
It's part of human nature.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Questioning one's assumptions about human nature [Re: mushbaby]
#7916584 - 01/22/08 07:27 PM (16 years, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
mushbaby said: I could see where someone who was revered as a god ever since childhood might not encounter much self-loathing.
Not much self loathing is not the same with no self loathing.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Re: Questioning one's assumptions about human nature [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7916858 - 01/22/08 08:12 PM (16 years, 10 days ago) |
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You're right.
I can see where someone who was revered as a god since childhood has never encountered self-loathing.
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Questioning one's assumptions about human nature [Re: mushbaby]
#7916948 - 01/22/08 08:27 PM (16 years, 10 days ago) |
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It's hard to reproduce this in my mind right now, but I find it very hard to believe. In my opinion any extremist attitude and behavior causes LOTS of negative feelings. Self loathing could be one of them. You can't have the SAME an entire life, life is flux and reflux for everybody.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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NiamhNyx
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Re: Questioning one's assumptions about human nature [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7917018 - 01/22/08 08:39 PM (16 years, 10 days ago) |
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I can imagine it possible for a culture to have very little concept of self loathing. It would probably have to be a collectivist culture that didn't put much value on the individual. It's hard to be self loathing when you think of yourself as simply a part of a larger picture. If the self didn't really matter all that much it'd be diffult to have strong feelings specifically regarding the self. It doesn't mean that no one in the culture would ever feel shame, but it'd probably be a different experience than what we think of in western culture. I'm also NOT arguing that this is the case in Tibet, this is purely hypothetical.
Another scenario where a culture would not have much of a concept of self loathing is one that didn't use shame to whip people into shape. A culture that perhaps didn't think it was particularly important for people to repress inherent drives in order to be 'good.'
I don't know if either of these scenarios exist anywhere in the world, but I think both are possible. In fact, I think its more than likely that there are or have been cultures in the world that don't/didn't have much of a concept of self loathing.
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Lion
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Re: Questioning one's assumptions about human nature [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7917040 - 01/22/08 08:43 PM (16 years, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: There where? In Tibet? Do you mean that you actually think that not a single one Tibetan felt self loathing?
Not necessarily. But I think it's worth considering that maybe there are and have been cultures which have learned to deal with the trauma of being born into this world without creating a false self which is the subject of loathing and criticism.
Quote:
Have you ever closely watched a cat or a dog? Or better yet, wild animals from documentaries, where you can't say they their behavior is vitiated by humans. Did you ever notice certain attitudes which pointed towards shame? I did. I am almost entirely positive that every conscious living creature has felt self loathing (or any other related feeling), at least once in their lives.
The cats and dogs I have seen have lived around human beings in Western materialist cultures, so maybe they have picked up some of the neurotic tendencies of their owners. As for animals in the wild - who knows? I can't personally say that any instance I have seen of animals feeling self-loathing isn't my own projection; and come to think of it, though I've seen animals that seemed sad, depressed, dazed, etc. (particularly animals in zoos - again, in contact with materialistic people), I can't say I've seen any animals that seemed invested with a sense of self-rejection and self-hatred.
Icelander, how do you know it's human nature? Maybe it's just the nature of beings who have been conditioned a certain way; humanity is vast.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Questioning one's assumptions about human nature [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7917054 - 01/22/08 08:47 PM (16 years, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
NiamhNyx said: I can imagine it possible for a culture to have very little concept of self loathing. It would probably have to be a collectivist culture that didn't put much value on the individual. It's hard to be self loathing when you think of yourself as simply a part of a larger picture. If the self didn't really matter all that much it'd be diffult to have strong feelings specifically regarding the self. It doesn't mean that no one in the culture would ever feel shame, but it'd probably be a different experience than what we think of in western culture. I'm also NOT arguing that this is the case in Tibet, this is purely hypothetical.
Another scenario where a culture would not have much of a concept of self loathing is one that didn't use shame to whip people into shape. A culture that perhaps didn't think it was particularly important for people to repress inherent drives in order to be 'good.'
I don't know if either of these scenarios exist anywhere in the world, but I think both are possible. In fact, I think its more than likely that there are or have been cultures in the world that don't/didn't have much of a concept of self loathing.
Agreed
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Re: Questioning one's assumptions about human nature [Re: Lion]
#7917214 - 01/22/08 09:10 PM (16 years, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
Not necessarily. But I think it's worth considering that maybe there are and have been cultures which have learned to deal with the trauma of being born into this world without creating a false self which is the subject of loathing and criticism.
Yes, I think it is worth too, and I also think that, if we want to improve the quality of our existence we should think about finding the means of minimizing that feeling of self loathing. However, I don't think that it can be entirely eliminated as it makes part of life and maybe it isn't "bad" in all cases. All of these feelings are natural and have a role, otherwise they wouldn't exist. I can't tell how much we'll evolve and if it's possible to reach a state in which a human will live an entire and complex life without feeling self-loathing at all. At this stage in my life I see it as something not very possible to happen. Self loathing doesn't always come from the judgment of "others". It also comes from the self. I was able to detect moments even from my very early childhood in which I felt self-loathing and it was because of me, my own mind, not because I was living in a judgmental environment. If I really think about it, my environment became judgmental much later. This feeling seems to be caused by an idealism regarding ourselves and our situation, which has its roots in our perfectionist nature. I think that if we didn't have this side, we wouldn't possess awareness. Along with it, comes our curiosity, malleability...
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Lion
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Re: Questioning one's assumptions about human nature [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7917258 - 01/22/08 09:17 PM (16 years, 10 days ago) |
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I see what you're saying and agree with most of it.
I'm not sure how to express this well, but... I don't think there is a true self, and I think judgment is a product of birth into a world in which beings have been programmed to judge. From an early age I think we learn to judge ourselves not from within, but from the people around us. Again, I also think birth trauma has something to do with learning to judge...the original cause of human judgment, as it were.
As for the possibility of leading a fulfilling life without that aspect of self-loathing... I think there's a difference between grounded self-criticism and self-loathing, and while both may ultimately somehow be beneficial in bringing about inner transformation, I think there are people in the world who have abandoned completely, or never even adopted, the burden of a self-loathing component of the psyche. I don't really know for sure though.
I'm a bit drunk too, so apologies for the garbled thoughts.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Questioning one's assumptions about human nature [Re: Lion]
#7917484 - 01/22/08 09:46 PM (16 years, 10 days ago) |
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I perfectly understand where you're coming from and I used to think like this for a very long time. Then something in the way I perceived life has changed, the order of my thinking has changed. What got me thinking was: well, ok, we feel self-loathing because we live in a society which is based on feelings such a producing guilt in others. But then again... producing guilt IS in human nature as well. It is TRUE that it is socially and culturally favored, but what started it? The answer is: the human mind. You can't have something created by "society", since society itself was created by man. If we were to think in the terms you propose, we would get an incomplete picture. It's like saying that it's because of mosquito bites that out skin feels itchy. But try to make a mosquito bite a rock. Will the rock feel itchy?  Taking all that to consideration, I conclude that everything starts from the self.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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NiamhNyx
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Re: Questioning one's assumptions about human nature [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7917872 - 01/22/08 10:53 PM (16 years, 10 days ago) |
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The self is the fundamental mediator of experience, and in that sense I can agree that everything "comes from the self" as you say. But its also widely accepted in developmental theory that we first begin to develop an identity through seeing ourselves reflected in the eyes of others. Before we're even conscious of our own existence people are responding to us, feeding us all sorts of positive and negative reinforcement. If we're lucky people like us and smile and snuggle us a lot as babies so we won't end up with neurotic attachment disorders. It's only a mature mind that is able to choose whether or not to accept personal responsibility and consciously shift this identity into something more independent and authentic.
Heidegger called it "primitive average everydayness." Primitive because it is our original state, and average everydayness because it is the common state of identity which most people accept. We begin our lives identifying with the feedback we recieve from others and our environment. We may choose some other identity later if we are willing to step up to the challenge.
In my own experience, my interpretations of the cues of my mother, for instance, may have been out of sync with the message she was attempting to express, but I still developed my earliest identity around the cues she gave. It's called "modelling" in psych lingo. In my late teen years I rejected a great deal of the assumptions and expectations I grew up with and consciously chose to change. Part of that change is accepting responsibility for having been complicit in my own prior submission to an identity that was not my own, but accepting responsibility for complicity doesn't mean that I formed the identity all on my own or that my social environment had nothing to do with my development. It's just nonsensical to deny the massive influence of others and of environment. If we were completely self formed we wouldn't be able to communicate with one another at all, we'd not speak the same language, know the same stories, be aware of the same ethical systems, etc...
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Questioning one's assumptions about human nature [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7918033 - 01/22/08 11:24 PM (16 years, 10 days ago) |
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Ahhh but I never stated that we are entirely self formed. What I was arguing about was the fact that the feeling of self loathing is in human nature. The example that I gave with the self was to explain exactly that thing, because it was suggested that this feeling is socially imprinted. While I agree that the society plays a big role in encouraging it, we must not omit that the society is a product of humans, it is not something independent from us. And if this feeling wasn't part of human nature, we would simply not feel it. Certain stimuli must resonate with something from inside of us in order to produce any result (in this case self loathing). And that, following this idea, one can feel self loathing or a derived feeling even if one does not belong to this social model.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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NiamhNyx
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Re: Questioning one's assumptions about human nature [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7918119 - 01/22/08 11:47 PM (16 years, 10 days ago) |
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I don't think that any particular emotional state is or is not 'human nature' but rather a potential we may or may not ever come to experience. This may seem nitpicky, but I think it's an important distinction.
Many people argue that greed and coercion are essential elements of human nature, yet there are many examples of cultures in which these traits are extremely rare if not practically nonexistant. A massive diversity of feelings and ideas are available for humans to experience, yet it seems that the social reality of each particular culture shapes the sorts of emotional and conceptual experiences a member will have. An anthropologist asked a !Kung tribesman what they called a 'greedy person' and after looking puzzled for a few moments he said "oh, you mean a person who has two hats." For the !Kung, since you only wear one hat at a time, it's ridiculous to have two of them. Hoarding is just uttery ridiculous, practically beyond comprehension. If a person says they like your shoes or your necklace, you give it to them to wear for awhile, and people will pass things around in this way without any particular attachment to the concept of "mine" or "yours." In !Kung society everyone contributes and everyone shares freely so no one ever experiences impoverishment and everyone's needs are met equally. As we can attest to, living in contemporary capitalist North America, greed is defintely a definite human potential (one that is pervasive and widespread,) but that does not mean that it will be experienced by all, or even that people in a particular culture will have any notion of it, by any means.
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Questioning one's assumptions about human nature [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7918148 - 01/22/08 11:57 PM (16 years, 10 days ago) |
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And that's exactly why I stated that these feelings can change their shape:
Quote:
This feeling seems to be caused by an idealism regarding ourselves and our situation, which has its roots in our perfectionist nature. I think that if we didn't have this side, we wouldn't possess awareness. Along with it, comes our curiosity, malleability...
This is exactly what allows us to improve ourselves, exactly this malleability. But I also think it's essential to point out that self loathing is as real as it gets otherwise we might risk ending up in a state of denial towards it. We need to know WHO we are and who we can be, in order to make a more efficient change. We need to learn what self loathing is in order to turn it into an opportunity for growth and overcoming it.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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NiamhNyx
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Re: Questioning one's assumptions about human nature [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7918208 - 01/23/08 12:17 AM (16 years, 10 days ago) |
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Sure, self loathing is 'as real as it gets'-- if you experience it. Quote:
Everything in nature is perfectly real including consciousness, there's absolutely nothing to worry about. -Hakim Bey
But that's only relevant to someone who experiences it. You're not gonna walk up to some !Kung dude and suggest to him a process by which he can get over being such a selfish prick, because he's simply NOT a selfish prick. He'd think you'd gone off the deep end and he'd probably be right.
I thought the point of this whole conversation was determining whether or not self-loathing was an inherent element of 'human nature' or whether it was simply a possible experience that one may or may not ever encounter due to social and environmental conditions.
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Questioning one's assumptions about human nature [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7918217 - 01/23/08 12:20 AM (16 years, 10 days ago) |
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I can't talk for everybody as I've only been in my situation, but from what I know by now I don't think that it's possible for a human NOT to experience self-loathing at all.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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NiamhNyx
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Re: Questioning one's assumptions about human nature [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7918235 - 01/23/08 12:23 AM (16 years, 10 days ago) |
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Well, if nothing I've said has convinced you that it's at least concievably possible, I don't know what will. Do you agree that it's concievably possible for a human being to not have feelings of greed? (Given that they exist in a radically different culture than the one you and I are a part of.)
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Questioning one's assumptions about human nature [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7918294 - 01/23/08 12:38 AM (16 years, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
Do you agree that it's concievably possible for a human being to not have feelings of greed? (Given that they exist in a radically different culture than the one you and I are a part of.)
Well, that's exactly what I am having doubts about. I'll try to express this as clear as possible... I am certain that the feeling of greed can be avoided when understood. When analyzed and observed their roots, when we shed light into all it's ramifications. Solving through reason. I think that greed is an instinct that becomes active in situations of necessity. Now, could some people lack this instinct? I don't know but I am more inclined towards thinking that we all have it. Perhaps there is a method of education that is able to make one automatically reason with this feeling right from the start, so fast that it can go unobserved?
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Re: Questioning one's assumptions about human nature [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7918302 - 01/23/08 12:41 AM (16 years, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
NiamhNyx said: Do you agree that it's concievably possible for a human being to not have feelings of greed? (Given that they exist in a radically different culture than the one you and I are a part of.)
It is conceivable... but this question will never be answer by philosophy.
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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: Questioning one's assumptions about human nature [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7918309 - 01/23/08 12:42 AM (16 years, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: Perhaps there is a method of education that is able to make one automatically reason with this feeling right from the start, so fast that it can go unobserved?
I believe this is quite feasible. Whether or not it can happen in this world, to our society, remains to be seen, but feasible it most definitely is.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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NiamhNyx
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Re: Questioning one's assumptions about human nature [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#7918325 - 01/23/08 12:47 AM (16 years, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:
It is conceivable... but this question will never be answer by philosophy.
Maybe not, but perhaps anthropology or even psychology might have some useful contribution?
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