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DoctorRobert
Are YouExperienced?



Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 79
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
Last seen: 16 years, 6 days
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Black Tuesday 2008
#7910338 - 01/21/08 04:23 PM (16 years, 11 days ago) |
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I think the us stock market will fall hard Tuesday, at least 5 percent.
Worldwide we are seeing 5-7% losses at global exchanges.
Perhaps the Second Great Depression will begin tomorrow?
-------------------- If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach a man to cultivate mushrooms, you feed his mind for a lifetime. www.groworganic.com www.hydroponics.net/i/200002 www.bulbs.com/Compact_Fluorescent_Screw--in/Daylight_White-/results.aspx
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
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Quote:
DoctorRobert said: I think the us stock market will fall hard Tuesday, at least 5 percent.
Worldwide we are seeing 5-7% losses at global exchanges.
Perhaps the Second Great Depression will begin tomorrow?
the stock market ruined my life
At least oil prices will drop:)
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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Coaster
Baʿal



Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 33,501
Loc: Deep in the Valley
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
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yes we are all more and more screwed for the future
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Luddite
I watch Fox News


Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,946
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"Fuck, fuck, fuck..."
If that guy was worth anything he would have known better. Why didn't he buy puts and/or short sell anything? How about defensive stocks that pay dividends? How about bonds and prefered stocks that pay dividends? I got over $37K in dividends outside of retirement in 2007. This month I got over $1800 in dividends.
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xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 11 hours
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Re: Black Tuesday 2008 [Re: Luddite]
#7910680 - 01/21/08 05:21 PM (16 years, 11 days ago) |
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I had the same thought today, its going to be rough.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
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Helicopter Ben!
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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freddurgan
Techgnostic



Registered: 01/11/04
Posts: 3,648
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
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That would make for an interesting year. I sort of want it to happen.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Black Tuesday 2008 [Re: freddurgan]
#7913149 - 01/22/08 12:00 AM (16 years, 10 days ago) |
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It doesn't need to happen, though - not like this. People see no way out so they are preparing for the worst, the act of which is creating the worst.
All of the blame for this can be placed directly in the laps of the federal government. Nothing more is responsible for this but the massive federal spending and failed policies, compounded by the acts of the Federal Reserve.
If we stood up and slashed away most of the federal government, restraining it with the Constitution, we would have prosperity again.
Hopefully Ron Paul finds a way to stand up and tell the American people the truth. Perhaps he could get on prime-time on CNN or something. He's the only one right now who is capable of really stepping forward and being a leader, reassuring the people by telling them exactly why this is happening, how he has been speaking out agansit what has caused this to happen for so many years, and how he can directly turn this around as President, firstly by simply cutting the enormous expenses we waste overseas.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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trendal
J♠



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Yesterday the Toronto Stock Exchange had it's worst fall in over 7 years. It lost about 5%.
They were saying today (tuesday) could be worse.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story



Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Post deleted by LunarEclipseReason for deletion: fr
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy


Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
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^JP morgan couldnt stop the 1929 crash by throwing money at it.. and neither can bernanke this time...there is only so much they can cut interest rates...
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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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It doesn't need to happen, though - not like this. People see no way out so they are preparing for the worst, the act of which is creating the worst.
Of course. This is how the stock market moves. On peoples hopes and fears, most of which are emotionally immature and unrealistic.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: Black Tuesday 2008 [Re: Icelander]
#7915321 - 01/22/08 03:55 PM (16 years, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
It doesn't need to happen, though - not like this. People see no way out so they are preparing for the worst, the act of which is creating the worst.
Of course. This is how the stock market moves. On peoples hopes and fears, most of which are emotionally immature and unrealistic.
Score one for the Commie. I have this book called Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds by Charles Mackay. It was published in 1841. The first 100 pages are about markets. Also, today's NYTimes had this:
Quote:
To Some, the Widening Crisis Seems Driven by Fear, Not Facts
“I don’t think it’s warranted by the fundamentals,” said Edward Yardeni, an independent strategist. “The resilience of the global economy in the face of a credit crunch has been impressive.”
Mr. Yardeni warned, however, that in a time of panic and fear, less attention is paid to fundamentals, like a fairly tight United States job market and strong growth and the extraordinary buildup of foreign exchange reserves in emerging markets. The result is panic selling and the prospect of a global recession. “People are creating the financial violence that they hoped to avoid,” he said.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/22/business/22stox.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper&oref=slogin
Oh yeah, I forgot, the market dropped around 1%. No biggie. Down sharply early and then people saw opportunities.
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Luddite
I watch Fox News


Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,946
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Re: Black Tuesday 2008 [Re: zappaisgod]
#7915516 - 01/22/08 04:32 PM (16 years, 10 days ago) |
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We need to use more coal and nuclear energy and also get the oil shale projects going to compensate for the depletion of conventional oil supplies.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 20 days
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Re: Black Tuesday 2008 [Re: Luddite]
#7915612 - 01/22/08 04:44 PM (16 years, 10 days ago) |
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> We need to use more coal and nuclear energy
I'd prefer we stick to short term polluters such as coal rather than creating a bunch of long term pollution from fission based nuclear energy. One huge factoid that nobody likes to talk about is the lifespan of a fission based nuclear reactor. Their average life is around 25 to 30 years. (Nuclear power supporters argue that through preventive maintenance, "future" reactors will somehow magically last longer. They have nothing more than hand waving to back up their claims, and history would tend to show a trend towards cost cutting and lack of preventive maintenance.) After that, cover it with lead and concrete and let her cool off for the next couple hundred thousand years, at least.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Captain Cubensis
Bleeding HeartLiberal


Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 648
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Re: Black Tuesday 2008 [Re: Seuss]
#7916434 - 01/22/08 07:04 PM (16 years, 10 days ago) |
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For 400 billion dollars America could be 100% oil and coal free.
Check out Scientific American, they published a master solar plan last month.
-------------------- www.groworganic.com Get 350lbs shipped to your door for only $100! www.mycosupply.com Online Organic Rye Berries www.hydroponics.net/i/200002 The Cyclestat 4P, a great repeat cycle timer made in the USA.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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How about a fucking link?
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afoaf
CEO DBK?



Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
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Re: Black Tuesday 2008 [Re: zappaisgod]
#7917042 - 01/22/08 08:43 PM (16 years, 10 days ago) |
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-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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zorbman
blarrr



Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
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Quote:
Captain Cubensis said: For 400 billion dollars America could be 100% oil and coal free.
Check out Scientific American, they published a master solar plan last month.
Yeah right, we will only have to wait until the year 2050. 
Anyone who thinks we actually have that long without a MASSIVE crisis also believes in the Tooth Fairy.
It ain't gonna happen, folks. We are not going to run our present economy and civilization off solar panels. It's a joke.
And by then we'll be broke and in a major war trying to make up the shortfall. Face it:
We are gonna keep doing what we're doing until we can't do it anymore.
Dance around it all you want- in your heart you know it's true.
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
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afoaf
CEO DBK?



Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
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Re: Black Tuesday 2008 [Re: zorbman]
#7917544 - 01/22/08 09:54 PM (16 years, 10 days ago) |
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-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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zorbman
blarrr



Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
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Re: Black Tuesday 2008 [Re: afoaf]
#7917589 - 01/22/08 10:02 PM (16 years, 10 days ago) |
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Sounds great. I will believe it when I see it.
What we needed was a crash program 10-20 years ago with the funding and support of the federal government (since only an organization that size can provide the financial resources) on the scale of the Apollo Program or the Manhattan Project.
Unfortunately, mankind seems almost hard-wired towards short-term thinking. (I would be interested to see what Diploid says on that subject).
It does not look good. We are about to go through wrenching change.
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Black Tuesday 2008 [Re: zappaisgod]
#7918954 - 01/23/08 07:20 AM (16 years, 9 days ago) |
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Log in to view attachment
How about a fucking link?
I think this is the article he's talking about (attached). If not, someone tell me the issue it's in and I'll put it up.
I've only skimmed over it, but from what I've seen so far, it's wildly optimistic, particularly about the potential for solar energy.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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TheCow
Stranger

Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 4,790
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
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Re: Black Tuesday 2008 [Re: Diploid]
#7919358 - 01/23/08 10:47 AM (16 years, 9 days ago) |
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I didnt read the article, but if what you find strange is the efficiency of modern solar cells, I can definitely back that up. Expect solar cells with efficiencies of 60+% in the not too distant future.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 20 days
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Re: Black Tuesday 2008 [Re: TheCow]
#7919540 - 01/23/08 11:49 AM (16 years, 9 days ago) |
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> Expect solar cells with efficiencies of 60+% in the not too distant future.
The theoretical maximum efficiency possible, could all of the energy in the sunlight be turned into electricity by a solar cell, is 34%.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Black Tuesday 2008 [Re: TheCow]
#7919615 - 01/23/08 12:13 PM (16 years, 9 days ago) |
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Here's what I find optimistic.
Full-on noon sunshine at the equator yields about a kilowatt per square meter.
Even if we somehow manage to invent hyper-efficient cells at 60% (current technology is only about 30% efficient), that's ~600 watts per square meter. Move from the equator to 45 degrees (northern US) and you end up with sin(45) * 600 ~= 420 watts per square meter on sunny days at noon. The power drops off rapidly as the sun moves away from noon.
The average US home consumes 10,000 kilowatt-hour per year* (27 kWh per day). So, solar can help, but it's definitely not the solution.
BTW, this next bit is off topic, but interesting:
In his documentary, the former Vice President calls on Americans to conserve energy by reducing electricity consumption at home.
The average household in America consumes 10,656 kilowatt-hours (kWh) per year, according to the Department of Energy. In 2006, Gore devoured nearly 221,000 kWh — more than 20 times the national average.
Last August alone, Gore burned through 22,619 kWh — guzzling more than twice the electricity in one month than an average American family uses in an entire year. As a result of his energy consumption, Gore’s average monthly electric bill topped $1,359.
Since the release of An Inconvenient Truth, Gore’s energy consumption has increased from an average of 16,200 kWh per month in 2005, to 18,400 kWh per month in 2006.
Gore’s extravagant energy use does not stop at his electric bill. Natural gas bills for Gore’s mansion and guest house averaged $1,080 per month last year.
chattanoogan.com
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (01/23/08 01:10 PM)
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Arp
roving mycophagist


Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
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Re: Black Tuesday 2008 [Re: Diploid]
#7919703 - 01/23/08 12:39 PM (16 years, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
The average household in America consumes 10,656 kilowatt-hours (kWh) per year
10656/365 = ~29.2 29.2*1000 = 29200W/day 29200W/24 = 1217W/hour
Goddamn! What are you guys living in? Mansions?
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Arp
roving mycophagist


Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
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Re: Black Tuesday 2008 [Re: Arp]
#7919728 - 01/23/08 12:43 PM (16 years, 9 days ago) |
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Then again, hungry radiators and airconditioners need a lot of energy. Something I can do without.
I have managed to get my own power consumption down pretty good. Electricity is getting darn expensive now when they have unregulated the power market.
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TheCow
Stranger

Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 4,790
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
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Re: Black Tuesday 2008 [Re: Seuss]
#7919777 - 01/23/08 12:54 PM (16 years, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: > Expect solar cells with efficiencies of 60+% in the not too distant future.
The theoretical maximum efficiency possible, could all of the energy in the sunlight be turned into electricity by a solar cell, is 34%.
When people speak of efficiencies for solar cells they mean the power on the cell vs the power out for the most part. There is a theoretical maximum for a basic PN junction however. But an obvious adjustment someone figured out was to have a multi junction where you create different band gaps or traps in the bandgap. there are many variants on the design going on at the moment, including nanotubes, quantum dots etc..
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TheCow
Stranger

Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 4,790
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
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Re: Black Tuesday 2008 [Re: Diploid]
#7919781 - 01/23/08 12:55 PM (16 years, 9 days ago) |
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Yea I agree with the limitations of solar cells. They should merely be used in conjunction with other technologies
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Black Tuesday 2008 [Re: Arp]
#7919812 - 01/23/08 01:06 PM (16 years, 9 days ago) |
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Goddamn! What are you guys living in? Mansions?
10 kWh per year. That was a typo. Al Gore apparently lives in several mansions.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Arp
roving mycophagist


Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
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Re: Black Tuesday 2008 [Re: Diploid]
#7919838 - 01/23/08 01:13 PM (16 years, 9 days ago) |
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I A chart I found.
I think norway is so high because of their oil=cheap eletricity.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Black Tuesday 2008 [Re: Arp]
#7919856 - 01/23/08 01:18 PM (16 years, 9 days ago) |
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I wonder why China isn't on there.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Arp
roving mycophagist


Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
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Re: Black Tuesday 2008 [Re: Diploid]
#7919878 - 01/23/08 01:26 PM (16 years, 9 days ago) |
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they're billions. would take too much time to count 
we should rig all the deserts with solar panels and wire them to a huge condensator. problem solved
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 20 days
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Re: Black Tuesday 2008 [Re: TheCow]
#7919932 - 01/23/08 01:43 PM (16 years, 9 days ago) |
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> But an obvious adjustment someone figured out was to have a multi junction where you create different band gaps or traps in the bandgap.
Interesting... I haven't followed the field in a few years now.
> I wonder why China isn't on there.
Because they are not considered a developed country. India is missing for the same reason.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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trendal
J♠



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Black Tuesday 2008 [Re: Arp]
#7920092 - 01/23/08 02:33 PM (16 years, 9 days ago) |
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1217W/hour???
That's not very much...
The furnace fan at my mothers house is a 1.5kW motor, for example. Any type of electric heater is going to use over 1000W. The window A/C unit in front of me (a small one) uses 845W.
Turn on a few things in a house...and you'll be using more than 1200W/hour.
--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: Black Tuesday 2008 [Re: trendal]
#7920326 - 01/23/08 03:44 PM (16 years, 9 days ago) |
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A thread derailed into hell needs a strong hand to bring it back to its roots.
Quote:
The Dow Jones industrials fell more than 320 points in early trading, and closed almost 300 points higher.
http://finance.yahoo.com/
So much for Chicken Little.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Black Tuesday 2008 [Re: zappaisgod]
#7920389 - 01/23/08 04:06 PM (16 years, 9 days ago) |
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Score one for the Commie.
How can I be a commie when no one is good enough to be in my tribe.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: Black Tuesday 2008 [Re: Icelander]
#7920442 - 01/23/08 04:22 PM (16 years, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Score one for the Commie.
How can I be a commie when no one is good enough to be in my tribe.
You're starting to sound like me
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DoctorRobert
Are YouExperienced?



Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 79
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
Last seen: 16 years, 6 days
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Re: Black Tuesday 2008 [Re: zappaisgod]
#7921318 - 01/23/08 07:21 PM (16 years, 9 days ago) |
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Quite a magic trick today, or should I say, illusion?
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Minstrel
Man of Science


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 1,974
Loc: Hogtown
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Re: Black Tuesday 2008 [Re: Diploid]
#7921420 - 01/23/08 07:42 PM (16 years, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: I wonder why China isn't on there.
China is not on there because it's per capita. They have a huge population, but the consumption of each individual is pretty low.
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
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Re: Black Tuesday 2008 [Re: zappaisgod]
#7921434 - 01/23/08 07:44 PM (16 years, 9 days ago) |
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Did the sky already fall and i miss it!!!!
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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Virus_with_Shoes
Pastor of Muppets



Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 3,707
Loc: Zuid-Holland, Nederland
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Re: Black Tuesday 2008 [Re: zorbman]
#7929691 - 01/25/08 12:54 PM (16 years, 7 days ago) |
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It was only so long before our unsustainable debt and our outrageous spending habits put us in a hole. Let's hope we learn something from this...
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zorbman
blarrr



Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
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Quote:
Let's hope we learn something from this...
Oh, we will learn our lesson well. But not before this crisis fully unfolds. Presently our society and government are in gridlock because times have been good.
Societies do not normally make large-scale changes until they are compelled by circumstances.
Revolutionary candidates like Ron Paul are only elected in times of great peril.
Candle wax is most easily shaped when the flame is hot.
We will probably solve this for a great price. We will get back to fundamentals and stop lying to ourselves as our national past time.
We will face the crisis only when it is fully on top of us. Those who will live through it will never forget the lessons. Future generations who did not will start the cycle all over again..
Those who do not remember history are condemned to repeat it.
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
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Virus_with_Shoes
Pastor of Muppets



Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 3,707
Loc: Zuid-Holland, Nederland
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Re: Black Tuesday 2008 [Re: zorbman]
#7933472 - 01/26/08 02:07 AM (16 years, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
zorbman said:
Quote:
Societies do not normally make large-scale changes until they are compelled by circumstances.
I totally agree with this. It's my opinion that the only way our country will get out of foreign wars of conquest is if a draft is imposed, forcing people out of their comfort zone (i.e. consumerist daze) and fight for their self-interest. It is the only way people will really start to rise up and have an impact on policy as they did during the Vietnam War.
Likewise perhaps a traumatic rise in oil prices, which seems plausable, may shock us into enacting more ecologically and economically sound alternatives. Just a thought
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DoctorRobert
Are YouExperienced?



Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 79
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
Last seen: 16 years, 6 days
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You are dead on man, Europe needed two world wars!
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