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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Red Pandas
    #7909591 - 01/21/08 01:17 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)



I think the most adorable animals I have ever seen are red pandas. I remember really liking them in elementary school, and I recently rediscovered them. :mushroom2:

One of the aspects of the nature of red pandas that is so interesting is that they are a fairly unique species. There really aren't a lot of presently existing animal species you can compare them to. Interestingly, they share a name with the giant panda, and they both subsist nearly entirely on a diet of bamboo. Bamboo itself has been discovered to be a very evolved plant species now that we have done genetic research on it.



Red pandas are facing extinction due to the fact that they are evolved for a highly specific micro-habitat that has been facing severe threats imposed upon it by humans, such as deforestation, but not to exclude the fact that some human beings choose to continue their traditional use of their amazing fur as wedding gifts, etc. The fact that they are adapted to a microhabitat is an interesting point to keep conscious of as I continue.



Red pandas are adorable creatures that are made to be petted and cuddled. :smirk: Their fur is beautiful and is surely amazing to play with. Red pandas are intelligent and playful, loving creatures. They were traditionally kept as pets by Chinese emperors, and appear to get along with humans quite well in zoos, who have a global red panda population management program in place to prevent extinction, in preparation for the looming threat of extinction in the wild.





98% of a red panda's diet is bamboo, and they prefer to eat only the most tender leaves and shoots. This is due to the lack of either panda's ability to digest cellulose, coupled with the low amount of energy bamboo yields in the first place. Red pandas have adapted to this by requiring very little energy for their body to function, even less than that of the sloth.



Red pandas are about the size of a cat. They seem to be very peaceful, playful, curious creatures.





Humans have evolved over the course of thousands of years in a symbiotic relationship with dogs. Much of our social order and our own behavior is due to the result of our interactions with dogs. They have served as a catalyst to our own evolution as much as we have theirs, which is a substansive case for the existence of the phenomenon of evolution in itself.



Humans and dogs came together due to the specialization of tasks that ensued which benefited the survival of all involved. Humans typically also have severe misconceptions regarding the nature of animals. We deny our own animal nature, and we subsequently misunderstand our brothers and sisters, other animals. We are all the same family, after all. :wink:





It is the personal goal of myself and MT to research these beautiful creatures and begin to work with them, and to put ourselves into an opportunity to keep them as pets and document it all with video and writing. :smile:



I wonder if red pandas will be the next animal to share a signfigant, symbiotic relationship with humans. Red pandas have a lot to teach us about energy conservation and love. :heartpump:








--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinedirtworshipper
Sitting in the heart cave
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Posts: 2,060
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7909607 - 01/21/08 01:20 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

:smileyfrog:
I love red pandas too
:hug:


--------------------

“You've got as many lives as you like, and more, even ones you don't want.” - George Harrison


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Invisibleim_on_a_boat
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Registered: 04/06/06
Posts: 3,950
Re: Red Pandas [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7909608 - 01/21/08 01:20 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

red pandas ftw!


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Posts: 7,152
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: im_on_a_boat]
    #7909658 - 01/21/08 01:34 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

:smilingpuppy:


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OfflineSra_sephiroth0
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7909907 - 01/21/08 02:32 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

well isnt that cute :peace:


--------------------
"You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours


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OfflineVisionary Tools
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Registered: 06/23/07
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Sra_sephiroth0]
    #7910135 - 01/21/08 03:38 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)



Mmm, reminds me of my 1000# vainity post.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Red Pandas [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7910366 - 01/21/08 04:26 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

they both subsist nearly entirely on a diet of bamboo.

I'll bet that would make them a tasty addition to a stir fry then.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Icelander]
    #7910375 - 01/21/08 04:27 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

:lol:


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7910472 - 01/21/08 04:40 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

cute, but what good are they? Dogs helped us out, and still do. What the fuck is a red panda gonna do? Id much rather just get another dog


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: TheCow]
    #7910476 - 01/21/08 04:41 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

Why does every living thing have to do something for you?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleim_on_a_boat
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Registered: 04/06/06
Posts: 3,950
Re: Red Pandas [Re: Icelander]
    #7910547 - 01/21/08 04:53 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

i support the movement for a red panda smiley!


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Invisiblebmiles
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: im_on_a_boat]
    #7910561 - 01/21/08 04:55 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

damn you fireworks!
my girlfriend is obsessed now!!!
haha


--------------------
Never go with a hippy to a second location.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7910657 - 01/21/08 05:15 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

Oh yes, they surely are wonderful creatures. :heartpump:
They're loving and playful and, it seems, they LOVE to be around humans. They don't seem bothered or distressed, on the contrary, they manifest themselves in a very playful and trusting manner.
I am certain that they would make wonderful and happy pets, and, in the same time, their chance to survival and reproducing would increase. :smile:
This video says it all about how cute and natural they can behave around humans:



I feel that this new possible bond would be beneficial for both people and red pandas, the only problem in this moment would be the law that interdicts having them as pets. But then again, this is because nobody has proven what amazing things can result from this bond.
There are lots of studies which have shown that humans with pets are happier than those without pets. I came across this interesting article:

http://cujo.clemson.edu/manuscript.php?manuscript_ID=38

Here are a few lines:

Quote:

Odendaal (2000) describes possible health benefits as a result of associating with pets. There are six neurochemicals in the brain that help to reduce blood pressure. Odendaal tested and found that there was a positive interaction between the increase of the six neurochemicals that reduce blood pressure and the participants interacting with their pet dogs. Jennings, Reid, Christy, Jennings, Anderson, and Dart (1998) found that pet owners have lower systolic blood pressure and plasma triglycerides than non-pet owners. These two studies show a positive correlation between interactions with pets and blood pressure.




I find it amazing how some little critters can put a huge smile on our face and how much we can learn to remember from them how good it feels to play. :sun:
Why not try to make something constructive with those little red pandas?
People argue that we shouldn't interfere with the course of their lives, but frankly I think it's all bull shit. :smirk:
We already influenced their lives, and not always in a good way for them. I think that this is a perfect opportunity to show that wonderful side of nature and natural and how good it feels to connect with other animals. :heart:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
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Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7910897 - 01/21/08 06:02 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

What do these beasts taste like. They look fat enough to have a good deal of meat on them.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7911662 - 01/21/08 07:53 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

They are cute....    :grin:

Good luck doooods....    :thumbup:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7912092 - 01/21/08 08:58 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
What do these beasts taste like.



Bamboo.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7912095 - 01/21/08 08:58 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
What do these beasts taste like.



Chicken.



Sorry, couldn't do just one.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Rose]
    #7912358 - 01/21/08 09:37 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

Bamboo chicken doesn't sound very tasty....




:tongue:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7913294 - 01/22/08 12:34 AM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
What do these beasts taste like. They look fat enough to have a good deal of meat on them.




Au contraire, most of what you see is fur. You would be much more likely to eat a tabby cat or a raccoon before you would eat a red panda.

Of course, what you and Icelander have brought up is an interesting point to consider as well. There are movements that would like to secure the commercial usage of Siberian tigers, such as selling their meat and fur. Human rights activists hysterically would oppose such an action, but the point well missed by them is that this would secure the survival of an endangered species. If there was potential for commercial profit, there would be individuals who would be interested in investing in a Siberian tiger breeding program. Scientific understanding with documented occurences taking place, evidence, could be funded much more effectively than as capable of a zoo or university. This would create work for scientists, and a demand for scientists would increase the intelligence of the population of this planet, thereby improving living conditions on this planet.

Education would be more invested in globally, as it would be necessary to educate the workforce. Habitat restoration would become more funded, because scientists would have jobs exploring those habitats and creating scientific understanding.

If the animals were treated in an ethical manner, then it would not necessarily reduce the quality of life of these animals. In the example of Siberian tigers, they could even be given the opportunity to live naturally, by creating an enclosure that resembles their ideal habitat, a micro-habitat tailored to the animal, and they could be harvested by trained hunters.

Their survival would be ensured. Humans would benefit from more scientific understanding of all life, not just our own. We will learn much more about reality by taking into consideration the perspective of the planet around us. If there are answers, they are to be found in our environment, in other life. :earth:

It is unethical to allow species to go extinct because of our ignorance, and it is unethical to assume a perspective that defines a condemning role for an animal. If we found ways that we could secure the sustainability of all beneficial life around us, and lived our lives in relation to them, we could evolve with them. I'm inclined to think that our consciousness could be manifested in them, and their consciousness manifested within us.

Regarding the question of the benefits that red pandas could bring to humans, it would be therapy. Peace. Center in their own being. They could happen to be the perfect pet, but our own misconceptions regarding the nature of life prevent us from looking at it in those terms.

Live evolves. Symbiotic relationships are mutually-beneficial. The distinctions and boundaries we find amongst ourselves and other animals don't actually exist. The difference between ourselves and a leopard is almost as negligible as the distinction between a white or black human when it is really put into perspective.

There is enough documentation out there of instances in which an animal from one species is raised in relation to an animal from another species. Reports of feral humans raised by wolves, basically being a wolf in a human body. Cats growing up with a dog nanny. Gorillas relationship with cats, etc. Chinchillas are a more recently known pet, so it isn't as though there is any true boundary that distinguishes a wild animal from a domestic pet, beyond the gap in the amount of interaction we have shared together.



--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7913507 - 01/22/08 01:35 AM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
I find it amazing how some little critters can put a huge smile on our face and how much we can learn to remember from them how good it feels to play. :sun:
Why not try to make something constructive with those little red pandas?
People argue that we shouldn't interfere with the course of their lives, but frankly I think it's all bull shit. :smirk:
We already influenced their lives, and not always in a good way for them. I think that this is a perfect opportunity to show that wonderful side of nature and natural and how good it feels to connect with other animals. :heart:




Exactly, and we could subsequently learn how good it feels to connect with other people, as well. A red panda could shift the center of consciousness from security and power addictions upto a level of love and awareness. :tripping:

I see red pandas as a creature that will travel space with us. :earth:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Red Pandas [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7913897 - 01/22/08 09:19 AM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Yuck fireworks, I can't believe you propose this shit.:thumbdown:

the point well missed by them is that this would secure the survival of an endangered species.

Survival is not the issue here. We already have cows. Lets not turn predators into them. It goes against their nature and causes them untold emotional harm. (I have worked in a Zoo and witnessed this first hand). I would much rather let them die out then see them oppressed such as humans are and our other domestic animals.

Please don't fool yourself into thinking that we would provide a realistic lifestyle for them. Tigers need vast acreage  for their territory and that would never be economically feasible.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineTheCow
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Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 4,790
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
Re: Red Pandas [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7913928 - 01/22/08 09:27 AM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
they could even be given the opportunity to live naturally, by creating an enclosure that resembles their ideal habitat, a micro-habitat tailored to the animal, and they could be harvested by trained hunters. 



:rofl:
Yes thats exactly how capitalism works. If by ideal habitat you mean a few feet to move around and hunter you mean that pneumatic gun.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Icelander]
    #7914249 - 01/22/08 11:15 AM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Yuck fireworks, I can't believe you propose this shit.:thumbdown:




Why not? You aren't interested in using our consciousness to benefit the survival of all life? This is our planet; we're floating along here around the Sun, existing as the Sun, and since we're here, we might as well interact with all of the life around us. We can instill consciousness within them, you know. This is directly evident in the powerful relationships that can develop between humans and dogs and cats. I've seen dogs with more being than some people. :smirk:

Quote:


Survival is not the issue here. We already have cows. Lets not turn predators into them. It goes against their nature and causes them untold emotional harm. (I have worked in a Zoo and witnessed this first hand). I would much rather let them die out then see them oppressed such as humans are and our other domestic animals.

Please don't fool yourself into thinking that we would provide a realistic lifestyle for them. Tigers need vast acreage  for their territory and that would never be economically feasible.





Well, of course, what you describe is not preferable, but the fact is evident that I'm not talking about zoos, which are a perfect example of what you are describing.

What I was describing would be fundamentally different, because the intention of holding the animals would not be for them to be easily displayed to a public interested at staring at them and not having to walk too far (:smirk:), but, rather, to create an environment ideally suited to the territorial and psychological needs of the animal.

Of course, with the potential of commercial profit, habitat restoration in the wild would carry with it more incentives. Africans would no longer have to rape their land in order to survive in a capitalist civilization that forced itself upon them, but could benefit from being stewards of their land. There are well-documented reports that iguana farms sustain the well-being of tropical rain forests and iguanas more than slash-and-burn farming techniques and the introduction of cattle could accomplish in that respect. :lol: Not only that, but iguana meat was used as a replacement in the United Kingdom for beef during the Mad Cow Disease scare. I'm certain it is much more healthy than corn and antibiotics-raised cows. :hehehe: The fact is, that opportunities such as this create more wealth in third-world countries, also opening the doors for tourism, which could really bring more money to people who would profit more from maintaining the well-being of their environment. What is being referred to as an example here, but is a movement that is occuring out there, could end poverty in third-world countries.

Of course, I wasn't personally proposing this as any more than an example of how we can form misconceptions about what is ethical regarding animals, which still has not been disputed. The Native Americans lived for thousands of years on the Great Plains migrating with the buffalo, involved in a symbiotic relationship that perpetuated both buffalo and Native Americans. The Native Americans were their stewards, and they lived well as well from assuming the role. Somewhere, there is still the idea that human beings have evolved to care for the planet. :earth: Later, when tribes like the Sioux obtained horses, the relationship shared amongst human beings, buffalo, and the horse is very poetic and beautiful, and benefited the interests of all.

So, let's review so far. You can't believe I'm proposing an idea that humans could benefit the habitat of all of these animals, and the environment ourselves, by creating opportunities for commercial profit that would bring investment in our environment? Why not, when, throughout history, human beings have evolved in relation to all sorts of life around us?

Should humans never raise crops to eat? Should humans never take leaves from a plant to cure a disease? Native Americans had more regard for the life that fate designated they took than anyone nowadays, with the exception of hunters and fishers, whose conservation efforts are textbook and inspiring. :mushroom2: I've never said anything about the unethical treatment of animals, and, just as I predicted in my first post, there are people who will get hysterically unreasonable about the subject, ignoring the history of this planet, man's relationships with animals, the needs of our environment, and the well-being of all life.

Of course, I was proposing the idea of red pandas being pets, which I see nothing objectionable about. There territorial and psychological needs could be well-satisfied in a person's home, supplemented by the special care of a loving human being. I see no reason to suspect that this relationship would not be beneficial for a red panda. People have kept tigers as pets successfully, which is something I personally think is a little unsustainable, given the natural aspects of a tiger, but the point is that positive relationships do develop, for the benefit of both.

I see no reason to think that the brains of other mammals could not evolve, especially as the result of our close interaction with them. Ours have developed because of the stimulus they have received over the course of time. We've developed a great ability to evolve a species over time, look to the wide spectrum amongst dog breeds. I don't think dogs have objected to living in relation to us, as they were receptive to being able to, and then it simply happened. I see no reason to think that other animals could not become more conscious through interacting with us, especially over time, with evolution.

Nothing but unreasonable objections, but at least it gave me an opportunity to refine my thoughts on the matter. :thumbup:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
Re: Red Pandas [Re: TheCow]
    #7914278 - 01/22/08 11:25 AM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

TheCow said:
:rofl:
Yes thats exactly how capitalism works. If by ideal habitat you mean a few feet to move around and hunter you mean that pneumatic gun.




Well, actually, no.... that's not what I meant, and I think reading-comprehension might go a long way towards implying as much. :smirk:

Clearly there would be ethical standards, which would be regulated by law. If a tiger farm ever manifested in the United States of America, it would happen out West, sparsely populated and vast desert as it is. Personally, though, I would tend towards habitat restoration providing the means of a natural habitat for animals, but I see nothing wrong with such an idea. There are buffalo ranches, and they've directly impacted the survival of a species that man drove towards extinction in order to perform genocide to another group of their own kind. They are full of respect for the animal, and, at the same time, humans benefit as well.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
Re: Red Pandas [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7914294 - 01/22/08 11:30 AM (16 years, 10 days ago)



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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7914298 - 01/22/08 11:31 AM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Nothing but unreasonable objections, but at least it gave me an opportunity to refine my thoughts on the matter. :thumbup:


Unreasonable for you maybe but not for me. Remaking the world in our liberal image is not something I want to contemplate. If we want animals  in our world then we might leave them some space, wild and apart from our intervention and they will do just fine. Almost every effort at "saving nature" according to our vision of what nature is and needs, backfires. And keeping animals as pets to "evolve" them is hubris IMO. They really don't need our help if they are to survive. They need to be left in the balance that they have evolved into. If that balance is upset to the point they can't survive then they will be gone.

I see a  vision of a farm that stretches around the world, everything is flat and level and even, just like all of us, we all have our little cubes to live in and we all have our furry pets that act as substitutes for our infantile insecurities. And we all eat lots of cheese.

The only reason I see that makes the little red panda so cute is that they look infantile. We tend to see them as lovable and innocent. What you (want to) see isn't always what you get.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (01/22/08 12:46 PM)


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Middleman]
    #7914364 - 01/22/08 11:48 AM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Middleman said:







--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Invisibleim_on_a_boat
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7914368 - 01/22/08 11:49 AM (16 years, 10 days ago)

LOL OMG LOL SO CLEVER


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7914769 - 01/22/08 01:49 PM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Cool, let raise Siberian Tigers on farms like cows! Kodiak bear farms next. We also may as well give Polar bear farming a shot while we are at it. Anyone up for milking a Grizzly?


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7914800 - 01/22/08 01:59 PM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Did you guys watch the videos? These Red Pandas are as harmless as cats.


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7914839 - 01/22/08 02:13 PM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Cats are not harmless. They have a dramatic negative effect on bird populations in many cities. :tongue: This is exactly what I'm talking about. When we think we know what will happen when we play with natural balances we are seldom correct. There really are many examples of this.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (01/22/08 02:15 PM)


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Icelander]
    #7915042 - 01/22/08 02:56 PM (16 years, 10 days ago)



Quote:

Icelander said:
Unreasonable for you maybe but not for me. Remaking the world in our liberal image is not something I want to contemplate.




Why not? Moral objections that cloud reason? Instinctual fear of close association with other life? Death anxiety?
:strokebeard:

Quote:


If we want animals  in our world then we might leave them some space, wild and apart from our intervention and they will do just fine.




:orly:

I beg to differ. Humans have lived in relation with thousands of animals throughout the years. I wonder if you realize how much of your personality is derived from thousands of years of our species living in a symbiotic relationship with dogs, for instance... Or, how much of where we are in this moment is resultant from past interactions with animals in our past. The perspective you present here is in denial of the vast history of this planet, and of evolution itself.


Quote:


And keeping animals as pets to "evolve" them is hubris IMO.




Why is that? Some people are capable of having healthy relationships with animals. This isn't a weakness, but a strength. We learn and develop and evolve through interaction with other life. We become more than human. Interaction with animals is therapeutic. People don't dismiss candles and massage and sex as hubris, but people tend to be ignorant of the nature of reality around them, to the point that they would not embrace the opportunity to live a life filled with furry, cuddly creatures full of love and play.

Could you imagine tripping with a red panda? :mushroom2: There is this very adult bias in a lot of people's thinking that it is not beneficial to embrace the child-like curiousity and joy and peace in living. Its a strange idea, especially in the psychadelic community, that life is to be enjoyed and to be lived, and to be loved. :smirk:

Anyone who has had a big fish tank with two oscars that have grown from little things to huge Amazon gods knows that having pets is evolution in progress. I researched into what their needs were and worked towards providing them with a more suitable habitat. I learned a lot about my own environment in comparison, and have often considered the water we are immersed within that we do not even see because we exist within it.

You're struggling agansit the riptide if you don't see any kind of inherent value in humans keeping animals with them as "pets". :lol:

Quote:


They really don't need our help if they are to survive.




Why not? We need their help for us to survive just as much as they need our help for them to survive. Humans have a lot to learn about the life around them and the nature of reality itself. We needed the help of dogs to survive in the past; our relationship with them has been pivotal for the evolution of both of us. We need to help ourselves by helping them.

Quote:


They need to be left in the balance that they have evolved into.




We've been at war with nature for far too long to think it isn't our responsiblity to take measures to actively restore the sustainability of the environment and the life that exists within it. It is our responsibility as life, and it is a great opportunity for us to evolve ourselves.

Quote:


If that balance is upset to the point they can't survive then they will be gone.




And we all say :shrug: and write it off as an unfortunate event? :what:

Fuck that dude, I'm not that apathetic. :shocked: The greatest way we influence the course of reality for the better is by taking action, in accordance with the nature of reality, that moves along progress and evolution. It will take innovative and resourceful ideas, acted upon by progressive individuals who find a path for reality to follow, to restore the sustainability of our environment, and to assure the survival of the life around us. The idea that humans can gain from a symbiotic relationship with other animals while they gain something from us as well is one that has arisen countless time and time again, throughout the course of history. There is even a Biblical metaphor that alludes to a time in which humans devaste their environment through their own ignorance, to the point that an effort based on sustaining the life in accordance with the nature of reality (building a craft that can float in a flood :smirk:), would ensure the survival of all life.

Quote:


I see a  vision of a farm that stretches around the world, everything is flat and level and even, just like all of us, we all have our little cubes to live in and we all have our furry pets that act as substitutes for our infantile insecurities. And we all eat lots of cheese.




You need to open your eyes before you read and look around. I haven't seen such a pessimistic viewpoint in quite some time.

Quote:


The only reason I see that makes the little red panda so cute is that they look infantile. We tend to see them as lovable and innocent. What you (want to) see isn't always what you get.




No, what makes the red panda so cute is their nature. Their being. Animals have a state of existence too, you understand. The manner in which their existence manifests is one that is very receptive to interaction with human beings. This has been documented in their relationships thusfar with humans, and also noted in the appeal they have to humans. The Japanese have had a crush on them recently. :smile:



This is reason enough to begin research and observation on red pandas sharing a habitat with loving humans. The fact that they are endangered in the wild is exponentially more incentive to find an effective way to secure their population. Chinchillas faced extinction before they were raised to be pets, and now they thrive in the wild as well as in the hearts of people who care for them.

Life evolves when it comes together much more than when it divides itself. Letting species die is killing ourselves. :frown:



--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7915057 - 01/22/08 02:59 PM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Cool, let raise Siberian Tigers on farms like cows! Kodiak bear farms next. We also may as well give Polar bear farming a shot while we are at it. Anyone up for milking a Grizzly?




Such hysterical sensationalism. What are you even responding to, but your own misconceived preconceptions of what is being stated here? :sherlock:

Try to assume its a positive idea to consider, and then see how it could work, in an effective, ethical way. :lol:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Icelander]
    #7915085 - 01/22/08 03:04 PM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Cats are not harmless. They have a dramatic negative effect on bird populations in many cities. :tongue:




And that could not have been easily predictable? :rofl2:

If anything, the cats benefit the bird populations by making them more conscious of their surroundings in order to survive. The bird populations evolve for the better in the presence of the cat. This works to the effect that birds can be enjoyed in the background areas of the city, but won't directly interfere in the day of the humans who commute around the city.

Quote:


This is exactly what I'm talking about. When we think we know what will happen when we play with natural balances we are seldom correct. There really are many examples of this.




That is why we begin scientifically understanding the life around us, so we can learn more about our environment, so that we can assure its continual sustainability for our own life, and other life as well. Interacting with animals like red pandas in microhabitats specifically suited for the animal and their being would give us the opportunity to better understand reality, and life itself. You've demonstrated a need to understand reality more, so here's the path towards doing so.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7915101 - 01/22/08 03:07 PM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Kung Pao Panda recipe

1 lb Panda (thinly sliced)

1 small egg, beaten

1/4 cup water

1/4 cup cornstarch

1/2 teaspoon salt

2 green onions (white part sliced and greens cut into 1/2-inch pieces)

1 red pepper, chunked

1 green pepper, chunked

1 small zucchini, chunked

1/3 cup water

2 1/2 tablespoons soy sauce

1 tablespoon cornstarch (dissolved in 1 Tbsp cold water)

1 teaspoon rice wine vinegar

2 tablespoons vegetable oil, divided

1 teaspoon garlic, minced

1/4 teaspoon ground ginger

1/4 teaspoon red pepper flakes

granulated sugar, sprinkled in (to your taste)

1/3 cup peanuts, dry-roasted

4 cups cooked white rice (Botan, sticky rice)

Combine meat in a zip-type bag with egg, water, cornstarch and salt; marinate chilled, for at least 30 minutes.

Prep and chill veggies.

Combine water and soy sauce, stir in dissolved cornstarch and rice wine, chill to reserve.

About 20 minutes before serving time (be sure to get rice started) heat about 1-Tbsp of oil in hot wok. Stir meat, drain and discard marinade. Quickly stir-fry the meat in oil, for 60-90 seconds. Transfer to a large container. Stir meat, drain and discard marinade.
Stir-fry the red and yellow peppers until almost tender; add green onions and zucchini, reserve with meat.

Heat the remaining oil and stir-fry garlic, season with pepper flakes and ginger.

Stir the reserved sauce mixture before pouring into seasoned garlic. Heat through to thicken. Sweeten to taste with sugar, adding a bit more ginger and/or red pepper flakes, as needed.
Add cooked food to sauce and stir in peanuts.

Serve over hot rice.


--------------------


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7915113 - 01/22/08 03:09 PM (16 years, 10 days ago)

If it tastes good, and the rights of animals are respected in a careful, intelligent manner, then why not? People eat bugs. :shrug:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7915126 - 01/22/08 03:11 PM (16 years, 10 days ago)

I don't think I could eat a red panda though. :lol:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7915165 - 01/22/08 03:20 PM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Raccoons rule! And they originated the 'bandit look' which the pandas later adopted. :nono:

They are cuter:


And friskier:


--------------------


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7915177 - 01/22/08 03:22 PM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Raccoons are another example of animals that have been kept as pets successfully. :smile:

I have a video of red pandas mating around here somewhere... :naughty:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7915180 - 01/22/08 03:23 PM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Could you imagine tripping with a red panda?

No an I've never tripped with a grizzly bear or a black panther either.

My dear boy, I will guess that I have had a ton more exposure to nature and animals than you have. I have spent a lot of time in true wilderness and back country and grew up fishing hiking and hunting, bird watching, animal watching, dog and cat owning,(and I have observed dogs and cats gone back wild) While we lived in relation to animals throughout our history it was in the woods and plains and not in our living room where we are lord and master and expect animals to behave according to our culture. Having been a dog trainer for a few years I know quite a bit about this.

You have a pretty high and mighty attitude about our ability to evolve other life forms considering we are the most dangerous animal to their survival. While I do see benefit to keeping animals as pets (for us mostly) I see a ton of drawbacks as well (mostly for the pets).

Again you are being arrogant if you beleive that we are in control of extinction and survival on this planet. But the part we do play is directly related to how much we are willing to share earth habitat and leave it in a natural state for animals to live in balance with their environment.

And by the way have you ever personally interacted with a red panda. I certainly doubt it and keeping one in captivity for your pleasure would most likely cause great stress to the animal. Not many animals become domesticated willingly.

I really don't think you know much about animal psychology at all. Really, how much time have you spent in the wild and around wild animals? Have you ever really observed them in the wild with the intent to understand their behavior. I have and I plan to leave most of them alone.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Icelander]
    #7915264 - 01/22/08 03:41 PM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Is it wrong to approach a red-haired hippie chick in the wild?


--------------------


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7915404 - 01/22/08 04:13 PM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

If it tastes good, and the rights of animals are respected in a careful, intelligent manner




You cannot respect somethings "rights" if you kill it and eat it. If you can kill it then it must follow that it has no rights. If it had rights (something that it could proclaim) then you WOULD NOT be able to kill it. If you want to be an animal rights supporter fine, but you can't really ride the fence on this issue. They either have rights or not. The right to be treated humanely until something kills you for food is NOT a right. Who is being ridiculous now :lol: You do have rights. Can we kill you for food?

Quote:

A right must be exercised through your own initiative and action. It is not a claim on others. A right is not actualized and implemented by the actions of others.




This means that animals cannot have rights. We merely have a responsibility to our world as it's self proclaimed lords...or not.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


Edited by Huehuecoyotl (01/22/08 04:20 PM)


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7916311 - 01/22/08 06:47 PM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

You cannot respect somethings "rights" if you kill it and eat it. If you can kill it then it must follow that it has no rights. If it had rights (something that it could proclaim) then you WOULD NOT be able to kill it. If you want to be an animal rights supporter fine, but you can't really ride the fence on this issue. They either have rights or not. The right to be treated humanely until something kills you for food is NOT a right.




Why?
Because others say so?
For example I love cows and I also love to eat their meat. And I don't see any contradiction in that.
I guess it depends on how you understand this issue regarding respecting life.
We were hunters once and in the same time we treated life with respect, we did not practice overkilling.

I think that what he meant by "respectful, careful and intelligent manner" leaves room for enough interpretation so it does actually make sense.
Let me give you an example: the E.U. has taken some important steps regarding the methods in which animals are killed:

Quote:

The live export trade in tiny calves was stopped in the 1990's, due to BSE fears and the worldwide ban on British beef and calf exports. Instead, a Government scheme, the Calf Processing Aid Scheme, paid farmers to have these calves killed when just days old. This scheme was terminated in 1999. Male calves - the unwanted by-products of the dairy industry - continue to be treated like disposable waste rather than as sentient beings. All too often, they are likely to face an early death. Government advice for killing calves on farm is that "a free bullet or shotgun are preferred methods".




From: http://www.vegansociety.com/html/animals/exploitation/cows/dairy_cow.php

Also:

Quote:

Farm animals have very little protection under the law in the United States. There is no federal law that provides standards for the rearing of farm animals The majority of states exempt
customary farm animal practices from the scope of their animal cruelty laws. Since factory farming is customary, little can be done in these states about lack of room for the animals to turn
around or spread their wings, or about deficient diets, de-beaking, force-feeding, castration
without anesthesia and so on. In those states with animal cruelty laws that do not specifically exempt farm animals, there is a tendency by law enforcement officers not to arrest farmers who are employing common farm practices, even when such practices are obviously cruel. The
cruelty laws are most used when animals are found dying from exposure to the elements or from lack of food and water.

The treatment of farm animals is much better in Europe. The European Union which is a group of several European countries is moving far ahead of the united states in its efforts to minimize cruelty to farm animals(see main article)

For a comprehensive look at the US farm animals' legal plight, read David Wolfson's Beyond The Law Agribusiness and the Systemic Abuse of Animals Raised for Food or Food Production.




From: http://www.ari-online.org/pages/europe_3_summary.html

Now, aren't these also animal rights?
Couldn't one argue that this method of killing has taken steps towards being more respectful and intelligent?

Now let's imagine this scenario: for some reason red pandas will start reproducing at such a speed that it becomes a threat to them (lack of space, food or other means of survival).
How do you see killing & eating some of them in such a circumstance? Does such a measure respect life or not?
What I am trying to point out is that it's not all that black and white.
Situations may vary and change and also our views on them. Why should we tie ourselves to a strict and  rigid definition of what "rights" are?

Quote:

This means that animals cannot have rights. We merely have a responsibility to our world as it's self proclaimed lords...or not.




Of course it does.
We can pick on the signals that animals are sending and we can understand how they feel.
Let's say we observe the behavior of red pandas. We become aware of their main personality traits and soon we realize that these playful animals seem to enjoy living life. In a certain but definite measure I can say that this is how their exercise their will to live, it's still an initiative on their side, the intention to live. :heart:
It might not be expressed in the same manner as we humans are used to do it (in an invasive manner), but we can still understand what's happening there.
When you see new born crying, you can't say that he is not expressing his sadness or fear regarding something just because he didn't tell you that, can you?
Keeping that in mind, the same thing goes for any other living creature, in this case I shall keep the example with red pandas, because that's the subject. :smile: We realize what's happening to them, and if our intention is to be honest we will soon realize that, through their actions, they make an affirmation, a statement: that living creates joy for them.

Let's take a look at them:






I take this as an affirmation of love for life. :heartpump:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7916394 - 01/22/08 06:57 PM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
I love cows and I also love to eat their meat.
And I don't see any contradiction in that.





Well now....    I don't think the cow will be complaining....!    :naughty:
:tongue:


You guys sure seem to be taking this panda thing seriously....
I like the pictures, and I have learned a lot more about Red Pandas, that is fo~ sho~....    :smile:    :thumbup:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7916540 - 01/22/08 07:20 PM (16 years, 10 days ago)

For example I love cows and I also love to eat their meat. And I don't see any contradiction in that.

I love you Mushroom trip.:heart: I would also like to kill you and eat you.:thumbup: :crazy2:

Well at least eat you.:doggystyle:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Icelander]
    #7917181 - 01/22/08 09:06 PM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
No an I've never tripped with a grizzly bear or a black panther either.




Of course, the idea of tripping with a dog or a cat is perfectly common, and happens with positive benefits. Grizzly bears and black panther are naturally carnivores that are likely not very receptive to direct interaction with humans, although that is really just a question of how they are raised from babies in relation to humans, no different than the manner in which puppies and kitties are raised in relation to humans. I've heard of pet bears before, though.

Quote:


My dear boy, I will guess that I have had a ton more exposure to nature and animals than you have.




Appeal to authority? Nah, it couldn't be. :smirk:

Quote:


I have spent a lot of time in true wilderness and back country and grew up fishing hiking and hunting, bird watching, animal watching, dog and cat owning,(and I have observed dogs and cats gone back wild)




That's wonderful. :smile:

Quote:


While we lived in relation to animals throughout our history it was in the woods and plains and not in our living room where we are lord and master and expect animals to behave according to our culture. Having been a dog trainer for a few years I know quite a bit about this.




I'm not seeing here any credible arguement agansit an animal and a human sharing a symbiotic relationship in this manner, certainly the idea that it is more a conscious decision of the human for it to happen is not relevant. Once again, you're riding agansit the grain of evolution and history on this one. From camels and llamas to horses, elephants, and parrots, humans have made conscious decisions to enter into such a relationship, and I see no true fault in this. Animals that are more conscious than others, such as dolphins and chimpanzees, even approach playing with a human being on their own. The idea that animals do not have inner experiences and that humans cannot directly interact with them in a way that serves the quality of that experience is baseless.

Quote:


You have a pretty high and mighty attitude about our ability to evolve other life forms considering we are the most dangerous animal to their survival.




No, that is simply your projection. The relationship between humans and dogs is a great testament to our success, and the benefits we have received from living with dogs and cats. The idea you propose that human beings could not begin a path of understanding the environment and the animals that exist within it, learning how to interact in order to better the situation for everyone, is not worth serious consideration. Perhaps you fail to understand that human behavior is a natural force as well, and that, as life, we may begin to understand more about ourselves as a result, while giving other life an opportunity to continue to exist and to have quality experience while they stay on this planet with us. :mushroom2:

Quote:


While I do see benefit to keeping animals as pets (for us mostly) I see a ton of drawbacks as well (mostly for the pets).




And drawbacks for the people keeping them, and lots of advantages to these animals as well.

Quote:


Again you are being arrogant if you beleive that we are in control of extinction and survival on this planet.




We could learn how to act in accordance with the nature of reality in order to influence its course. Humans have developed agriculture thousands of years ago, so I don't comprehend where this perspective of yours results from, perhaps not this planet. When we have an intention of observing and understanding reality, we begin to actually do so, for the benefit of ourselves and other aspects of reality. Our entire history as a species is a great demonstration of this. The line you are drawing is unreasonable.

Quote:


But the part we do play is directly related to how much we are willing to share earth habitat and leave it in a natural state for animals to live in balance with their environment.




Habitat resoration and maintenance is important. The first step to achieving this is to understand the environment itself, which would require an intimate understanding of that which exists within the environment. I wonder how that starts without someone actually becoming involved with this. :lol: 

Quote:


And by the way have you ever personally interacted with a red panda. I certainly doubt it and keeping one in captivity for your pleasure would most likely cause great stress to the animal. Not many animals become domesticated willingly.




Have I? Not yet, and thankfully, there is plenty of information that demonstrates that red pandas are receptive to interacting with humans in the same habitat, and that is reason enough to gain interest in pursuing this, to see and observe what actually happens.

Stress is a sign that the psychological needs of an animal are not being met. If those needs are met, no stress. Ferrets are kept as pets and they are far too happy playing around, moving around like crazy, and getting into trouble to show any signs of stress. Of course, this is the case for almost any animal kept as a pet, of which there are a great number of, but it just goes to show how history has manifested and supported this viewpoint.

Quote:


I really don't think you know much about animal psychology at all.




We all start somewhere, and I've started a path of learning, from reading books on dogs by psychologists, to finding research articles on red pandas and bamboo, to planning an interest in zoology.

Quote:


Really, how much time have you spent in the wild and around wild animals? Have you ever really observed them in the wild with the intent to understand their behavior. I have and I plan to leave most of them alone.




A decent bit for my living situation. I look forward to spending more time doing so. You seem to hold onto a very predefined conception of the nature of life which tends to stand agansit the grain of history and what we have learned regarding evolution.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7917241 - 01/22/08 09:14 PM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
You cannot respect somethings "rights" if you kill it and eat it. If you can kill it then it must follow that it has no rights.




Well, perhaps you don't really understand what it means to be a living creature. Nature demonstrates nothing but the food chain in action. This statement of yours has no relationship with the nature of reality. Perspectives from Native American thought show us that it is likely that it was tradition for these humans to fully respect and embrace the life of other animals, even if they were taking that life. They understood that they were just the perpetuation of a natural cycle that would one day take them as well, eventually becoming the soil, providing nutrients to benefit the evolution of more life.

Clearly, this perspective you propose has no relation to nature.

Quote:


If you want to be an animal rights supporter fine, but you can't really ride the fence on this issue. They either have rights or not.




This seems to be far too simplified a viewpoint to bear relevance to the discussion.

Quote:


This means that animals cannot have rights. We merely have a responsibility to our world as it's self proclaimed lords...or not.




Exactly, we can either assume the role of being stewards for life and evolution on this planet, or not. I choose that role. Our presence on this planet to this point designates that we either choose this role or simply stand back and watch as massive extinction continues to ensue.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7918880 - 01/23/08 06:39 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
We were hunters once and in the same time we treated life with respect, we did not practice overkilling.




A lot of people continue to hunt and fish, and the majority of them are responsible stewards of the earth. If it were not for hunting and fishing, there would not be nearly as strong of a conservation effort in this country. While some animals do meet their end to become venison stocked in the deep freeze, populations of animals thrive, and their population is managed by the hunters, as regulated by the state (which receives its funding to do so from hunting), so that they do not overpopulate, consume too many resources, and face a slow death of starvation and pestilence. Hunting has raised millions of dollars for the protection of natural habitat throughout the United States. Surely, our natural habitat does not disappear because of the interest of those who seek to utilize natural habitat to maintain a symbiotic relationship with other life.

All of this is well documented and is directly demonstrated to benefit the survival and well-being of all sorts of animals that were otherwise facing extinction due to the nature of our presence. Around 1930, in the United States, white-tailed deer were thought to have a population of about 30 thousand. Conservation programs begun, funded and participated in by hunters, and now the number of white-tailed deer in the United States is around 30 million. The Greater Canadian Goose was thought to be extinct by the 1950's, until a small flock was discovered in the '60's. It is now populated throughout its range, thanks to conservation efforts. This holds true for the wild turkey, as well as many other animals.

Quote:


Now let's imagine this scenario: for some reason red pandas will start reproducing at such a speed that it becomes a threat to them (lack of space, food or other means of survival).
How do you see killing & eating some of them in such a circumstance? Does such a measure respect life or not?




All evidence points to it being more effective for populations to be regulated through hunting (in the absence of predators that perform a necessary check to maintain balance, just like all natural systems :smirk:). The interest in hunting creates incentive for habitats to be sustained and restored. The Native Americans took hides from buffalo, coyote, etc. etc. etc. and used them to keep themselves warm and comfortable. They migrated with buffalo herds with tipis with a canopy made from buffalo hides to keep shelter. They did not overhunt the buffalo and did not waste the precious resources that they provided. Symbiotic relationships are mutually beneficial, the buffalo thrived and lived what would seem a preferable life.

Quote:


What I am trying to point out is that it's not all that black and white.
Situations may vary and change and also our views on them. Why should we tie ourselves to a strict and  rigid definition of what "rights" are?




Fear, judgement, misconceptions? :smirk:

Quote:


When you see new born crying, you can't say that he is not expressing his sadness or fear regarding something just because he didn't tell you that, can you?




No, you can't say that, and humans traditonally have deep misconceptions of the usage of language by animals. We carry with us human bias that assumes that life must match up to our standard. Dogs don't talk because their physical nature, the shape of their skull, for instance, limit the ability for muscles to develop that allow them to manipulate air passing through in a great variety of ways. Bees have a very refined language that they can use to communicate new locations, maybe a mile away, to other bees. Researchers who have studied these bees were capable of cracking the code and arriving at the location before the bees did. :smile:

Quote:


I take this as an affirmation of love for life. :heartpump:




They want to play. :hug:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7919258 - 01/23/08 09:50 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

I've heard of pet bears before, though.

On one of these forums right now there is a great vid of a woman being seriously mauled by a "pet bear" . This woman was just sitting there and  the bear noticed her and just full out attacked. Nice pet, nice pet.

From camels and llamas to horses, elephants, and parrots, humans have made conscious decisions to enter into such a relationship

As their captors. I'm sure the parrot just flew into the cage and said hey dude clip my wings I hate flying and moving about. The animal that seems to have sought human co-habitation is the dog.

benefits we have received from living with dogs and cats.

Yes, we have received benefit but for the most part they have not. If you spend any time at an animal shelter you will become aware of that. Not to mention the folk that don't interact with there pets, leave them alone or always on a leash, make them a surrogate for the friends and children they can't acquire. It's really sad when you take a good look at it. I certainly doubt that red pandas want to be your pet and leave their environment.

The idea you propose that human beings could not begin a path of understanding the environment and the animals that exist within it, learning how to interact in order to better the situation for everyone, is not worth serious consideration. Perhaps you fail to understand that human behavior is a natural force as well,

:tongue: Many humans do (but obviously not many and less and less) already understand the environment and the animals that exist in it. They are trying to preserve it rather than altering it to fit our desires. There's enough of that already IMO. Of course I understand that human behavior is a natural force.:tongue: That's why I'm disputing your ideas here.

there is plenty of information that demonstrates that red pandas are receptive to interacting with humans in the same habitat,

Any animal in captivity would have to interact with humans in the same habitat. A tortured parrot in a small cage will interact with humans in an attempt to postpone insanity. I saw lots of this at the zoo and in my work with dog training and volunteering at the animal shelter, and of course in daily life. Is your information based on these animals in captivity or the wild? I doubt red pandas willfully enter into captivity.:tongue:

. You seem to hold onto a very predefined conception of the nature of life which tends to stand against the grain of history and what we have learned regarding evolution. 

:tongue::crazy2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7919296 - 01/23/08 10:19 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

LEAVE RED PANDAS ALONE ! :cryariver:


[:hehehe:]


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Icelander]
    #7919487 - 01/23/08 11:32 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
On one of these forums right now there is a great vid of a woman being seriously mauled by a "pet bear" . This woman was just sitting there and  the bear noticed her and just full out attacked. Nice pet, nice pet.




I've already stated that I personally feel that certain animals are not receptive to being kept as pets by humans. This is only logical; there isn't much benefit for either moose or man if there is a moose in a man's living room.

The question regarding the "pet bear" is the specifics of the situation in question, but its a side-point to the main discussion. I only mentioned it in passing, acknowledging that I had heard of as much. Clearly the potential for risk is there if someone attempts to live in course quarters with an animal that is naturally a carnivore and over-powers you in ways that will threaten your own survival. It is only common sense, thankfully, I'm not proposing the idea of keeping a bear as a pet in this thread. :smirk:

Quote:


As their captors. I'm sure the parrot just flew into the cage and said hey dude clip my wings I hate flying and moving about.




Amazingly enough, people keep parrots whose wings do not get clipped, and the people who tend to them take great steps towards creating an environment for them that is well-suited for the animal's needs. I've already referred to the concept of a micro-habitat. What you might not understand is that responsible pet owners go to great strides to provide their animals with the best possible treatment, to ensure their quality of life and that their psychological needs are met. Humans are capable of controlling enough variables in an environment to specifically suit them in a capable, effective manner - this is why cichlids from the lakes of Africa can flourish in a living room in America, in a tank of water weighing half a ton, the exact requirements of their water being regulated by an amateur scientist at work.

Clearly, this is why scientific understanding regarding the nature of animals is necessary, in order to understand them and what their needs are. This is also why you ensure responsible owners through unobstructive regulation, promoting education and understanding.

Quote:

The animal that seems to have sought human co-habitation is the dog.




This isn't true, neither dogs nor humans actively sought out a symbiotic relationship with the other. The fact that similar needs brought them to share the same living space, thus leading to their interaction, brought forth the relationship and the subsequent evolution of both species. I still see no reason why humans cannot consciously make decisions to seek out these cirumstances with other animals, provided that it is done in an educated, responsible manner.

Quote:


Yes, we have received benefit but for the most part they have not.




Balderdash. Dogs and cats have shared loving, playful relationships with humans. Dogs are often used in hunting and other work, and performing tasks with their alpha male, the sense of being that they derive from social interaction, benefits them. They have diets that are specially formulated for their nutritional needs, so they are healthier than ever with proper exercise, which no doubt benefits quality of life. They receive more stimulation through human interaction, since human beings are capable of interacting with them in a limitless number of ways. Dogs communicate through smell much more prominently than we do, and our world offers them a cornucopia of new sensations and experiences. I've seen dogs develop state of being that is not so evident in some humans. Anyone with a positive sense of keeping pets would not be so dismissive of the idea.

Quote:


If you spend any time at an animal shelter you will become aware of that.




Most people are too stupid to know how to raise their own children; how likely is it that you think they understand the nature and needs of another form of life? :lol:

This is why there should be more educational regulation at the point at which an animal leaves the care of a responsible, experienced person into the hands of a new owner. Pointing to the failure of those who were incapable of knowing what they were doing as failure of the concepts and ideas I have presented is a strawman.

Quote:


Not to mention the folk that don't interact with there pets, leave them alone or always on a leash, make them a surrogate for the friends and children they can't acquire. It's really sad when you take a good look at it.




Right, it is sad, but it didn't really need mentioned, beyond to present the opportunity for me to clarify that I'm not talking about what you are talking about. :smirk:

Quote:


I certainly doubt that red pandas want to be your pet and leave their environment.




What environment? They don't have much of one left. They have very specific dietary needs that are very difficult to be catered to in the environment, needs that could be amply satisfied with a bamboo grow room. :hehehe: This isn't just about pets, this is about the brink of extinction. I certainly doubt that they want to be in zoos with your logic, but its either that or extinction at this point, and the care of loving humans in a personal setting will be much more satisfying than being on display in some zoo, especially considering the observed nature of red pandas as well as their adaptability to getting along with human beings.

I can understand that, for whatever reason, you would rather let a wonderful animal go extinct because of our presence on this planet, but I see it more compassionately than that, and I'm not going to let it happen. Its a lack of interest in life itself that condemns an innocent creature to extinction, at the expense of an opportunity of a wonderful symbiotic relationship among red pandas and human beings.

Quote:


:tongue: Many humans do (but obviously not many and less and less) already understand the environment and the animals that exist in it. They are trying to preserve it rather than altering it to fit our desires. There's enough of that already IMO.




An attempt to preserve certainly sounds like an attempt to alter the course of reality to fit our desires to me. :smirk:

At any rate, evolution is a progressive movement, change. :mushroom2: Humans typically hold misconceptions of the nature of consciousness and the fact that other animals could very well be on a path of evolving consciousness as well. Perhaps we are afraid of competition, but the idea of another animal evolving to be as aware of the nature of reality as we presently are seems a very natural one, an expected course for reality to take, especially as we continue along our path of becoming more aware ourselves. Red pandas seem very receptive to a very positive, mutually-beneficial, symbiotic relationship with human beings.

Quote:


Any animal in captivity would have to interact with humans in the same habitat.




Yes, and I'm certain that some animals are more receptive to positive interaction with humans than others are. Red pandas have been observed to be very receptive to getting along with humans, at least enough for some individuals to become interested in learning more, gazing through a new perspective on the matter. :smile:

Quote:


A tortured parrot in a small cage will interact with humans in an attempt to postpone insanity.




Seems likely, but we aren't talking about a tortured parrot in a small cage, we are talking about fluffy red pandas receiving stimulating interaction from friendly humans and red panda buddies in a relaxed, natural, spacious setting, in which great care is taken to meet the physical and psychological needs of red pandas. Such is unprecedented, so to dismiss the idea based in reason and observation with irrelevant references to entirely dissimiliar hypotheticals is not necessary in this discussion.

Quote:


I doubt red pandas willfully enter into captivity.:tongue:




Neither do humans, but they still seem adequately satisfied with a system where an institution forcefully takes your wealth to economically ruin you. The power of being born into a pre-existing environment that is already suited for your presence. :smirk:

Quote:


. You seem to hold onto a very predefined conception of the nature of life which tends to stand against the grain of history and what we have learned regarding evolution. 

:tongue::crazy2:




Its plainly evident in the perspective you have put forth. Its like thinking in the past while imagining the future, without understanding the sense of the present moment and a path existing in accordance with nature to lead to that imagined future, all lying dependent upon the action we take right now. We really prevent ourselves from changing for the better when we stay stuck in unchallenged conditioning.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Icelander]
    #7919512 - 01/23/08 11:38 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

On one of these forums right now there is a great vid of a woman being seriously mauled by a "pet bear" . This woman was just sitting there and the bear noticed her and just full out attacked. Nice pet, nice pet.




Pets become violent when they're being harassed. Also a "pet bear" is kind of vague, as there are lots of kinds of bears, all with different personality traits.
Did you know that children can become violent with their parents IF the parents are acting stupid and tiresome? What does this say? That it's dangerous to grow children or that it's a good thing to learn how to behave and treat them?
I recall when I was four and I was with my mother. She kept talking to me on & on and she was really annoying, playing with my hands and other things she thoughts they were "cute" to do to child. She wouldn't notice my obvious irritation so I pinched the tip of her nose so hard that she had a small mark for a few days. Does this mean that I was a dangerous kid? :hehehe:
Pets borrow traits from their owner's character. If the owner is hysterical or has some form of anxiety, the pet will pick up on it too. If the owner is relaxed and loving, the pet will be loving too.
Just out of curiosity, did you watch any of those red panda videos? You say you have experience with animals, I am sure that you could create an idea about what kind of animals they are. :heart:
I have been around animals since I was a child and I've always love playing and connecting with them. I not even once feared animals and I realized that this makes a HUGE difference for them.

Quote:

As their captors. I'm sure the parrot just flew into the cage and said hey dude clip my wings I hate flying and moving about. The animal that seems to have sought human co-habitation is the dog.




Yes, it is true that some people do that. :frown:
But you know very well that it doesn't happen like that in all cases.
We can really connect with other animals, in a true way and not forced.
Why emphasize only a not so intelligent way of interacting with those critters?

Quote:

Yes, we have received benefit but for the most part they have not. If you spend any time at an animal shelter you will become aware of that. Not to mention the folk that don't interact with there pets, leave them alone or always on a leash, make them a surrogate for the friends and children they can't acquire. It's really sad when you take a good look at it. I certainly doubt that red pandas want to be your pet and leave their environment.




Are all pets in this situation?
It sounds to me like an over-generalization.
Just because some people behave irresponsibly with animals and they make them sad, it doesn't mean that animals are unhappy around humans. It only means that animals are unhappy around irresponsible people. I am sure you can see the difference.
Also what I am thinking about is EXACTLY trying to work on developing a deeper understanding regarding what our pets need and what makes them happy. I feel that there's so much to explore in this direction that it would be a pity to just think that there's nothing to see there.
This is probably because I had some experiences which made me think that there IS indeed room for creating a deeper bond with them. If I am mistaking I guess I shall learn, but as you seriously doubt that red pandas could enjoy our company, I seriously doubt that they wouldn't. What I do know is that I am not going to turn my back on this before trying it. :smile:
I still have something not quite clear and I hope you will shed some light for me. Are you trying to make a point that NO animals feel happy as pets, or are you referring only to red pandas? Have you ever had a pet? If yes, could you say whether it was happy or not?

I found some interesting info about the domestication of the cat:

Quote:

More than 50 million years ago, a small, "weasel-like" animal called "Miacis" roamed the Earth. Most scientists now believe that this animal was the ancestor of today's domestic cats, as well as the ancestor for other mammals including raccoons, dogs and bears. The extinct genus of species Miacis appeared in the Late Paleocene era (circa 65-42 million years ago) and were mammals of the family Miacidae, superfamily Miacoidea. They are representative of the group of early carnivores that were the ancestors of modern carnivores, ie., of the Order Carnivora. Only the species Miacis cognitus is a true Carnivora. Miacis may be considered the genus of carnivorous mammals that gave rise to all modern Carnivora. Miacis were five-clawed, about the size of a weasel (~30 cm), and lived on the North American and European continents. Some of their unique characteristics included low skulls, long slender bodies, long tails, and short legs. They had 44 teeth, although some reductions in this number were apparently in progress and some of the teeth are reduced in size. Their hind limbs were longer than their forelimbs and their pelvis was very doglike in form and structure. Miacis had retractable claws, agile joints for climbing, and binocular vision. Miacis and related forms had brains that were relatively larger than those of other creatures in the Carnivora order of that time; their increased brain size as compared with body size likely reflects an increase in intelligence. Miacis was well suited for a tree climbing lifestyle with needle sharp claws, and had limbs and joints that resemble those of modern carnivorans. Miacis was probably a very agile forest dweller that preyed upon smaller animals, such as small mammals, reptiles, and birds, and might have also have eaten eggs and fruits. It was about 40 million years ago that actual members of the cat family first appeared on our planet.

As early as 3500 B.C., Egyptians were domesticating wildcats from Africa, and these domesticated wildcats became treasured pets and were honored in many forms of artwork for their skill in hunting and killing rodents such as snakes, rats and mice. The cat's first name in Egypt was Myeo or Mau. Early Egyptians believed that the glow from a cat's eyes held captive the light of the sun.




Now I don't know what you know about cats, but it's a well known fact that they have a strong personality and that they do only what they want. How do you explain yourself the fact they stay around humans? Even if they leave (because it's in their nature to wander around), most of them come back to their owners. Why do you think they would do that, for other reason than them wanting to be there? They love to cuddle and they love to get human attention in all it's forms.
I have two cats, and let me tell you that it is THEM who seek attention (s well as other times they just turn their asses on me when they don't feel like seeing me around :lol:). They are wonderful and loving beings. :smile:
This is him

And this is her


While these particular cats are lovely and sweet, other cats can be a threat. I have a friend who was attacked by someone's Burmese and from what she told me she was pretty shocked by it's barbaric approach. From what I gathered, the owner has a very aggressive temper as well. Well, for me, that's a clear sign that some animals can borrow so much from our personality, which only leads me to the conclusion that they are compatible with us. :smile:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7920126 - 01/23/08 02:44 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

How do you explain yourself the fact they stay around humans?:rofl2:

Humans provide an easy living for them which insures their survival. Take away the food and warm house and see how long they stick around.  Kittens are encultured around humans and so lose the ability to fend for themselves. Most feral cats that were once domestic starve or become easy prey because they have lost their instinctual edge. And of course they seek attention. That's natural enough. That doesn't mean much at all. A lion will seek attention from a zoo keeper when in the mood. But if you gave them their instincts back in full and opened the cage with a place to go. They would go. I believe the same is true for cats. The fact that they are domesticated keeps them in place. But I can see your POV as you are also domesticated. :monkeydance: Just try not to masturbate in front of the paying customers.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleim_on_a_boat
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Icelander]
    #7920694 - 01/23/08 05:07 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7823686#7823686

already been there

feral red panda gang ON YO ASS.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Icelander]
    #7922993 - 01/24/08 02:26 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Humans provide an easy living for them which insures their survival.




No, that isn't how cats first began to interact with humans. The living circumstances of early humans would naturally attract the presence of cats, who benefited from a symbiotic relationship with humans. It isn't as though the first human went out from a cave with a dish and yelled "Here kitty kitty kitty". :smirk:

So, it could be said that the cat-human relationship started when both animals sought out an easier form of living, which brings question to your argument, as though an easier form of living was not preferable. I'd have to assume that it is in the interest of most animals to live and to not go extinct. Animals like red pandas are not capable of making conscious decisions like "Should I go live with humans and not go extinct here?", but it doesn't mean that we should not ask the question.

Quote:


Kittens are encultured around humans and so lose the ability to fend for themselves. Most feral cats that were once domestic starve or become easy prey because they have lost their instinctual edge.




Yes, but this arguement makes no sense when we aren't talking about taking animals out from the wild, raising them in relation to ourselves, and then going back out and dumping them in the wild, unable to survive in an environment in which they weren't raised in.

The only legitamate question regarding this is whether or not it is ethical for humans to bring animals to coexist with them in a new environment, and whether it is psychologically satisfying to the animal. This is the question that we are interested in pursuing - not some kind of vicious neglect and irrelevant situations that you continue to present. :lol:

Quote:


And of course they seek attention. That's natural enough. That doesn't mean much at all. A lion will seek attention from a zoo keeper when in the mood. But if you gave them their instincts back in full and opened the cage with a place to go. They would go.




Instincts as the defining factor of how animals are to be? :strokebeard: Curiously enough, instincts haven't held humans back from evolution, although they still seem to manifest in our behavior, until that is consciously transcended as well. Evolution occurs over time. New instincts are manifested behavior emerge over time, over successive generations. This is plainly evident in the case of the dog. The ingrained psychology of a dog is very similar to that of a wolf pup. Did you know that the environment tends to favor the re-emergence of specific traits, through genetics? An appeal agansit evolution that is based upon the past denies the act of evolution, occuring in the present, changing the trends for the future. No one asked humans if they wanted to live this life. There is no preferred state for life to exist in, our environment determines how our genetics manifest. I see nothing unethical about bringing animals into new environments and taking good care of them. :wink:

Quote:


I believe the same is true for cats. The fact that they are domesticated keeps them in place. But I can see your POV as you are also domesticated. :monkeydance:




Every animal is conditioned into their state of existence. Do you feel it is more preferable for a human to be conscious and cultured, or feral and driven by instinct? Which one produces awareness and understanding of the nature of reality? Why do you have reservations agansit other species becoming more conscious, or, at the very least, living in a new environment and sharing a symbiotic relationship with humans?

The concept of a micro-habitat is a plausible and interesting one, and could include interaction with human beings. I see human beings starting to create entire worlds of environment and experience for themselves and other life all over, especially as our technology and our understanding of our environment and other life increases. Entire ecosystems can be created in the backyard, and red pandas can cuddle up to sleep, touching our feet underneath the covers. :heartpump:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineCubie
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Icelander]
    #7923002 - 01/24/08 02:34 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

I want one.or 2 for population help.
Id make my backyard a bamboo jungle.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7923093 - 01/24/08 04:39 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

You missed my point. Unless you understand the meaning of "rights" you can't rebut my post. What you have posted does not relate to what I said.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7923098 - 01/24/08 04:42 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Well, perhaps you don't really understand what it means to be a living creature.




Lol....I AM A LIVING CREATURE!!! Come on!!!


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Icelander]
    #7923104 - 01/24/08 04:45 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

I think that it is a tragedy that the Red Pandas have to live in such an imperfect world as ours. So, lets hunt them to extinction.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7923119 - 01/24/08 04:59 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

I think everyone should have them as pets and love um and play with them. There obviously much cooler then cats or dogs. If they were available to people and a lot of people got um their population would go up pretty fast.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7923138 - 01/24/08 05:18 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
You missed my point. Unless you understand the meaning of "rights" you can't rebut my post. What you have posted does not relate to what I said.




Well I think I just explained that the meaning of "rights" can vary.

Quote:

I think that it is a tragedy that the Red Pandas have to live in such an imperfect world as ours. So, lets hunt them to extinction.




Who said anything about an imperfect world?
How can you really tell that it is not good for red pandas to be around humans?
We inhabit the same planet, I think this should be a good starting point in thinking that maybe we are not so incompatible with them.
I am really trying to understand where you are getting at, is it that you think that the idea of having pets in general is wrong? If it is, why so?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7923156 - 01/24/08 05:46 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
You missed my point. Unless you understand the meaning of "rights" you can't rebut my post. What you have posted does not relate to what I said.




Are you seriously approaching this discussion, or what? Your last post was ages ago and you aren't presenting a very clear perspective on what it is you are responding to and referring to. What idea is it you are trying to convey, exactly?

Quote:


I think that it is a tragedy that the Red Pandas have to live in such an imperfect world as ours. So, lets hunt them to extinction.




You are either being pointlessly sarcastic, or so blatantly ignorant of the discussion that is taking place that it is disappointing. No one is proposing anything near this, and the fact that you would try to propose this in such a manner is pretty dubious. If you have nothing relevant to the discussion at hand to present, why waste your time with something like this? :shrug:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7923499 - 01/24/08 09:19 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

not some kind of vicious neglect and irrelevant situations that you continue to present. :lol:

This is the often what happens to our pets. And it doesn't have to be vicious to be debilitating to animals that are basically instinctual. When you can insure an enlightened humanity capable a high ethical code that is consistent then we can revisit this subject. Until then it just seems like you want a new pet no matter how it turns out for the rest.

Do you feel it is more preferable for a human to be conscious and cultured, or feral and driven by instinct? Which one produces awareness and understanding of the nature of reality? Why do you have reservations agansit other species becoming more conscious, or, at the very least, living in a new environment and sharing a symbiotic relationship with humans?


Considering the current state of humanity one could make a good case for instinctual living as a more harmonious state of existance. And thank you for knowing which animals know the "nature of reality". :lol::monkeydance: I would certainly beg to differ here.

or, at the very least, living in a new environment and sharing a symbiotic relationship with humans?


Back to my first statement. When mankind can show respect for mankind then we might consider looking into including the rest of the animal kingdom with out the harm we have been doing to animals so often for our known history. :frown:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Icelander]
    #7923956 - 01/24/08 12:06 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Maybe we're just highly qualified at giving them pets Stockholm syndrome, that would at least be consistent with the way we treat our fellow humans.


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: deimya]
    #7923967 - 01/24/08 12:12 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

This would mean that ALL the pets feel their life threatened around humans. And this is an over generalization.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: deimya]
    #7923983 - 01/24/08 12:16 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

If we make these things our pets we'll have snottly little brat children harassing the living shit out of them until we may possibly see some blood and gore. But this already happens with dogs and cats, so why not? Just cus it's a bear don't make them any more significant than a cat. But thats just my opinion. Should we throw our right away to keep cats and dogs as pets too?

Hell, human beings keep human beings as pets too. Lets stop having children!


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Icelander]
    #7923991 - 01/24/08 12:19 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
This is the often what happens to our pets. And it doesn't have to be vicious to be debilitating to animals that are basically instinctual. When you can insure an enlightened humanity capable a high ethical code that is consistent then we can revisit this subject.




Perhaps I did not clarify enough on exactly what was being proposed. To start off with, I understand your concerns, as expressed through your strawmen (:smirk:), but I was asserting that I was honestly not allowing for this because, as what we are proposing does not allow for these situations to happen. :wink:

The situation regarding red pandas is such that they endangered in the wild, existing primarily in China, Nepal, and India, with some known in Laos and Mynamar. What is left of their habitat is facing fragmentation. They have very specific needs that requires a certain amount of habitat to exist, as their dietary needs are very specific due to their digestive system, which limits the amount of energy they can receive from bamboo, but they require a certain amount of habitat in order to thrive. Their habitat is already lessened to the point that they face extinction, and it probably isn't going to get better soon.

There is a Species Survival Plan that maintains zoo populations, which is probably a few hundred. They keep track of the lineage of these red pandas and ensure proper maintenance of their genetics. I wouldn't expect the numbers of this population to grow too signfigantly, and we're talking about populations being kept in zoos...

Our interest is in learning more about red pandas by specializing in them as an animal. There is potential merit in using red pandas in psychological therapy for humans, as they are very appealing to people, from their striking beauty, to their cuddleness/cuteness factor, and also the fact that they are receptive to interacting with humans and their playful nature. Of course, for all of these reasons, they would seem ideal for existing in positive pet relationships with humans, but there present numbers are certainly not enough for this to be feasible in the immediate future. One side arguement for finding an avenue through which people can obtain pet red pandas legally is that it would serve to alleviate the pressure on their endangered wild populations that are posed by poaching for the illegal pet trade (who wants to deal with Pinko Commies anyways :shrug:) and traditional Chinese uses for their fur. :wink:

We're personally interested in working together to set some positive trends for the future of red pandas. I'm interested in studying zoology and specializing in bamboo, the ecosystem of the region of the world they exist in, and as much about red pandas themselves as possible, to find opportunities to work with them in zoos, and to venture into the wild and explore them there. MT is into psychology and we could begin to explore what it could mean to use red pandas in therapy. In order to do so, we would have to explore and document red pandas directly interacting with humans in a natural, comfortable human setting. We would be interested in building a proper foundation from which we could work with red pandas, keep them in the home (as well as have an area outside in order to fufill some psychological needs), and just begin to explore what it could mean to live together with red pandas as pets, making video documentaries that could be available on the Internet, with something like youtube, in order to raise awareness and interest.

A scientific basis for sharing the same living space as red pandas could begin to emerge, as well as exensive documentation available to anyone of how they must be cared for. I've already referred to the responsibility that exists when an animal leaves one to be with another. Keeping red pandas as pets would be regulated, mostly with education, to ensure that red pandas were being treated properly. At any rate, this point, if it were to arise, would not be for quite a few years, and, in our increasingly interconnected planet, evolving from the powerful influence of the Internet, we may very well be much more compassionate, wise, realized beings.

Quote:


Until then it just seems like you want a new pet no matter how it turns out for the rest.




See? Not true. :tongue:

Quote:


Considering the current state of humanity one could make a good case for instinctual living as a more harmonious state of existance.




Ahh, don't be silly. :smirk: While there are always negative attributes of humanity being exhibited, people tend to lose sight of the very real, noticeable progress that occurs through every new generation. Some tend to focus on the negative aspects of their environment, effectively blowing it out of proportion, and, as what these aspects are progress, attention instead focuses on some kind of continual negativity.

If it were all or nothing, humans living as apes or humans living in this day and age, I think we would all choose today, as to go back wouldn't be evolution. While we all yearn back for certain aspects of past human life that appeal to us, we wouldn't want to lose all of the beneficial progress and understanding that benefits us so. I'm making a case for living our life in relation with other life more, focusing on benefiting them to direct our awareness into reality more. I see technology becoming increasingly transparent, enabling us to still provide ourselves with a preferable quality of existence, while being able to let nature be, and to have the opportunity to explore it fully. We're talking emerging trends that will lead to a more harmonious state of existence, and we see red pandas as playing an important role in that. :mushroom2:

Quote:


And thank you for knowing which animals know the "nature of reality". :lol::monkeydance: I would certainly beg to differ here.




Perspectives on the nature of reality are evidenced to resemble the nature of reality itself when they employ predictive value. Beg to differ away, but the idea of not being able to know which perspectives of the nature of reality hold more relevance to the nature of reality itself is false.

Quote:


When mankind can show respect for mankind then we might consider looking into including the rest of the animal kingdom with out the harm we have been doing to animals so often for our known history. :frown:




In other words, once reality fufills your expectation, then you would choose for people how they will begin to interact with animals? :smirk:

What we have proposed is our own personal path of evolution, one that will promote these ideals you wish to see fufilled.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: deranger]
    #7924025 - 01/24/08 12:26 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

SyntheticMInd said:
If we make these things our pets we'll have snottly little brat children harassing the living shit out of them until we may possibly see some blood and gore.  But this already happens with dogs and cats, so why not?  Just cus it's a bear don't make them any more significant than a cat.  But thats just my opinion.  Should we throw our right away to keep cats and dogs as pets too?




Well, I like your perspective on this, as a sort of "well, this is the way it is anyways, so why not?" type deal. :smirk: I think, though, considering their endangered status and the time it would take for red pandas to be feasibly available as pets, there will be enough time to secure a foundation upon which it is assured that red pandas, and other animals as well, will be treated much better. :smile:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7924105 - 01/24/08 12:48 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

and specializing in bamboo,

I suggest the red panda restaurant to begin with.

While I understand what you are saying I doubt it will all play out so beautifully as you predict. The best way to insure the survival of any species is to leave their habitat intact. If humans need pet pandas for their psychological well being then I pray for human extinction as soon as possible. The weaker we get the more we encourage it.:tongue:


Ahh, don't be silly.

No, you don't be arrogant. You seem to think you know what everybody wants for some strange reason. I myself would feel no loss if I was born a Bonabo. I think humanity for all it's good qualities is a negative force on this planet. (please just take a look) I believe we will self destruct and do harm to most flora and fauna in the process.  I'm not sure of course but being as honest as I can be it sure looks this way from here.

Perspectives on the nature of reality are evidenced to resemble the nature of reality itself

It seems each living thing has their own perspective on reality. Who's perspective is more correct? Do we have to visit your belief that you know what ultimate reality is again. :monkeydance: I certainly hope not.

In other words, once reality fulfills your expectation, then you would choose for people how they will begin to interact with animals?


Yes. IMO everyone does this. But just so you know, mankind had been interacting with animals for it's whole history. We just started domesticating them (for the most part without their consent) for a short time.

And the Lord said "Fireworks you shall have dominion over all life on the planet to do as you see fit." Amen.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7924299 - 01/24/08 01:43 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

in our increasingly interconnected planet, evolving from the powerful influence of the Internet, we may very well be much more compassionate, wise, realized beings.





:rofl: :lol:  :rofl2:

You do realize that the vast majority of internet sites are devoted to porn, and that most of the remainder are devoted to selling something?  Yes, there is definitely a powerful influence being created by the internet.  :tongue:


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Veritas]
    #7924385 - 01/24/08 02:13 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Don't forget search engines :wink:

If it weren't for the internet, I may have never realized that the vast majority of foods sold in supermarkets are dead and hinder a healthy lifestyle.  Now that surely could have had some effect on the rate at which I grow as a realized being.


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Veritas]
    #7924433 - 01/24/08 02:27 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
You do realize that the vast majority of internet sites are devoted to porn, and that most of the remainder are devoted to selling something?  Yes, there is definitely a powerful influence being created by the internet.  :tongue:




I see no reason to appeal to the lowest common denominator in regards to discussion about positive change. I am discussing the benefits of the proliferation of information, the ability to network regardless of locality, and the trends that are beginning to take place throughout this planet resulting from access to and usage of the Internet. The seeds that have been planted are beginning now to grow. The greatest indicator that this is occuring on a noticeable scale is Congressmen Ron Paul's bid for the Presidency. It is a textbook example of how much the Internet is influencing the course of reality in unprecedented ways never imagined just two years ago, and the benefits of people becoming more aware of the nature of reality around them due to receiving signfigantly more information about reality.

Okay, sure, as you pointed out, a lot of people are using this tool to explore their own sexuality. Is this indulgence, or is it the first step towards becoming aware of our nature? Obviously it is what people need at that point, to become more conscious beings, and the Internet only provides a greater opportunity for people to develop as they need to.

My point, of course, was not regarding some instant, transformative event, but rather signs that are emerging now that are strongly indicating a quick transition, due to necessity, faciliated by the technological advances of the Internet, into a new age in which people become more self-realized and understanding of the world around them, thus directly impacting further, positive change.

The fact is, there is no standard metric with which to judge how quickly positive change can manifest. There is really only a question of how efficently information can be exchanged, and how quickly people become receptive to positive change occuring, through them and within their environment.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: deranger]
    #7924439 - 01/24/08 02:29 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

SyntheticMInd said:
Don't forget search engines :wink:

If it weren't for the internet, I may have never realized that the vast majority of foods sold in supermarkets are dead and hinder a healthy lifestyle.  Now that surely could have had some effect on the rate at which I grow as a realized being.




Not only this, but these important changes in the lives of individuals are occuring in every locality on this planet, dependant on access and usage, of course, and how these individuals socially network off the Internet. In most cases, people who use the Internet are involved in some kind of life with people around them, and the change continues. This is happening everywhere. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Veritas]
    #7924455 - 01/24/08 02:34 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

So basically what you're saying is that, because a large number of people are irresponsible and don't correspond to the description of an individual which is apt to care in a good way for animals, there's no reason in trying to bring awareness into this matter.
Considering that all things are lost and nothing can be changed is not such a god attitude if we strive for progress in my opinion. In fact, if everybody was to think like that, everything would just stagnate or even regress. I am well aware of the flaws of this world, as well as I am aware of the positive and constructive aspects of it. I am not deluding myself into thinking that we have a wonder potion that people will swallow and produce a magical shift in awareness. But I know about that particular aspect of human beings which responds to pleasure and love. And even if many people don't have the most intelligent means of achieving and producing it, I still take to consideration the possibility that some of them might. I still believe that one of the main reasons we act from anger and fear is the lack of information. By focusing on exactly this aspect, namely finding and spreading information, things will eventually change. Of course, it won't be a sudden change, as any real and efficient change happens in time because it has to follow and live it's every stage, but what we seed into this world will flower later on. We might be inclined to think that our actions have to effect in the outside world if we lack of patience or willingness to understand the delay between cause and effect.
I fully agree that nobody can be changed, and I never would want to try such a thing. But I think that a change can be produced (or to me more clear, facilitated) in those who already have some sort of intention in that direction.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7924534 - 01/24/08 02:50 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

I'm saying that it seems extraordinarily naive to claim that the internet is influencing a significant portion of the population with regards to becoming more enlightened and compassionate.  Those who are interested in making positive changes within themselves and in the world around them will seek out information which facilitates such change.  These seekers are NOT a statistically significant portion of the human population.

I use the internet to my great benefit, in many aspects of my daily life, but this use is not hugely different than the manner in which I used the library while I was growing up.  (I was homeschooled.)  I would guess that my use of the internet is highly unusual, as was my use of the library.  Few people utilize this resource for more than paying bills, shopping or looking at porn.  :shrug:

There may well be positive changes in the wind, as there have been throughout human history, but they are not likely to be global or generalized.  This does not mean that your individual efforts in that direction are wasted, but rather that the expectation of the effect of your efforts could stand to be a bit more realisitic.


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7924570 - 01/24/08 02:58 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

I see no reason to appeal to the lowest common denominator in regards to discussion about positive change.

Especially when it doesn't validate your position. Even thought she is correct. Just out of curiosity have you ever admitted to being in error in your illustrious history here?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (01/24/08 02:58 PM)


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Icelander]
    #7924586 - 01/24/08 03:01 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
While I understand what you are saying I doubt it will all play out so beautifully as you predict. The best way to insure the survival of any species is to leave their habitat intact.




And what do you propose is the best way to ensure that humanity secures the continual sustainability of environments that are being fragmented to the point that the animals who have specifically evolved for that microhabitat are facing extinction? The fact that they are endangered doesn't seem to compel enough, but the creation of incentive in seeing these animals continue to thrive subsequently ensures that the restoration and sustainability of these habitats exists. This is why conservation programs coupled with regulated hunting is so effective in securing the population of an animal while investing in the protection of the environment they exist within.

Of course, more regarding what I am proposing here, it is also possible to properly recreate a microhabitat to provide for the sustained existence of life. This enriches the lives of humans, by adding to the quality of their life in participating in a stimulating, purposeful task of sustaining an environment that provides for the quality of existence for animals, while simultaneously protecting them and giving them an opportunity to live a fufilled life, and an opportunity to directly interact with humans and evolve with us. :mushroom2:

Quote:


If humans need pet pandas for their psychological well being then I pray for human extinction as soon as possible. The weaker we get the more we encourage it.:tongue:




I see no reason to be facetious about this. :shrug:

Humans don't need pet red pandas for their psychological well-being, but this does not negate the potential benefits from a meaningful relationship with another animal. There is plenty of documented reports regarding all ways that keeping animals as pets is therapeutic and beneficial for the well-being of the life of humans. It also seems clear that, if done in an effective, compassionate manner, the well-being of the animals can be satisfied as well. For you to dismiss these substansive concepts as some sort of sad commentary on humanity itself is brazenly ridiculuous.

Quote:


No, you don't be arrogant. You seem to think you know what everybody wants for some strange reason.




Oh, do I really? :hehehe:

I see no refutation for my point you were replying to. Most people enjoy this experience and the benefits from being here now. Being conscious is not some burden that humans need cast away. Being more aware of reality and of our own nature is empowering and beneficial. Understanding reality makes sense, and we seem to be on a path of higher consciousness, considering our evolution. Clearly some people might not be interested in this, but most clearly do, since most seem to continue to perpetuate this cycle.

Quote:


I myself would feel no loss if I was born a Bonabo.




Of course not, being is being. We are simply a state of existence, we exist as we exist.

Quote:


I think humanity for all it's good qualities is a negative force on this planet. (please just take a look) I believe we will self destruct and do harm to most flora and fauna in the process.  I'm not sure of course but being as honest as I can be it sure looks this way from here.




When we lack awareness and understanding of reality, when we are not aware of the subtle aspects of our environment we are immersed in, and we act out of this lack, can we serve as a detriment, to ourselves and our environment?

No one is asking that question, because it seems pretty evident that we can, and have. Every single one of us. This doesn't mean that we are not learning as we grow. Its happening right now, people everywhere are interacting with reality and they are learning. Reality is choosing this course. The idea of evolution, and its evidence, is evidence enough that things will get better as reality unfolds. We exist on a path of becoming more conscious, and, as we become more aware of the nature of reality, we act more effectively in accordance with that nature in order to influence the way in which reality unfolds. This has a compounding effect, especially with advances in technology that allow a mesh network of information to manifest everywhere.

The fact is, we will naturally begin to consume less oil as we become more aware of the consequences of doing so, and as the free market determines it is more profitable to invest in sustainable sources of energy. As humans begin to realize it is better to live a healthy lifestyle, the free market determines that there is more incentive to invest in ventures to facillitate healthy lifestyle. As people begin to demand more integrity and intellectual understanding and effective leadership in politics, the more likely it is that politicians will emerge that can get elected by those people. Things continue to change for the better - that is evolution. :wink:

Quote:


It seems each living thing has their own perspective on reality. Who's perspective is more correct? Do we have to visit your belief that you know what ultimate reality is again. :monkeydance: I certainly hope not.




I'm not sure I understand the personalism, so I won't comment on it. Reality determines which perspective is more correct.

Quote:


And the Lord said "Fireworks you shall have dominion over all life on the planet to do as you see fit." Amen.




Nonsense, I shall not have dominion, nor shall I seek it. I have implied nothing of the sort.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Icelander]
    #7924600 - 01/24/08 03:04 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Especially when it doesn't validate your position. Even thought she is correct. Just out of curiosity have you ever admitted to being in error in your illustrious history here?




I clearly expressed how the reality she pointed towards is accounted for in the perspective on the matter that I was presenting. It is possible for more than one person to be correct on one matter, whereas one person places that understanding in a different context than the other person presenting it. Reading comprehension will confirm that I fully accounted for her statement.

I'm not going to indulge your curiousities so you can perpetuate some kind of irrelevant personalism.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Veritas]
    #7924618 - 01/24/08 03:07 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

I use the internet to my great benefit, in many aspects of my daily life, but this use is not hugely different than the manner in which I used the library while I was growing up. (I was homeschooled.) I would guess that my use of the internet is highly unusual, as was my use of the library. Few people utilize this resource for more than paying bills, shopping or looking at porn. :shrug:




I don't know about that, people do not use the library as much as they once did. :shrug:
Now I can't foresee the future and tell what will happen, maybe the library trend will experience another bloom, but from the way things are evolving right now, I just don't see this happening. :lol:
The internet might be used more for porn and paying bills, but it's potential is much larger. Personally I prefer to read or buy books online instead of going to the library. Most of my friends prefer this too. Now I know that others prefer going to the library, but what I'm trying to say is that libraries are already losing ground in the favor of the internet. And I think that more and more people will choose the internet over going to the library, it's much more preferable reading the book you need in the comfort and privacy of your own home than in a library where you're supposed to stay for hours on a chair, make as little noise as possible and simply behave. :lol:
Not to mention that librarians can be a pain in the ass. :mad:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

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Re: Red Pandas [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7924619 - 01/24/08 03:08 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

signs that are emerging now that are strongly indicating a quick transition, due to necessity, faciliated by the technological advances of the Internet, into a new age in which people become more self-realized and understanding of the world around them, thus directly impacting further, positive change.





To what signs are you referring? Are you claiming that this will occur on a generalized level, throughout the current human population? Upon what are you basing this assertion?


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7924624 - 01/24/08 03:08 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

This doesn't mean that we are not learning as we grow. Its happening right now, people everywhere are interacting with reality and they are learning. Reality is choosing this course. The idea of evolution, and its evidence, is evidence enough that things will get better as reality unfolds.

People have always learned as they grew. Same for the dinosaurs.

Things will get better as reality unfolds???? The idea of evolution and it's evidence???? Things will get better as reality unfolds??? Gee Fireworksgod I didn't know that evolution was about things getting "better". I guess I was sick that day.:shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7924636 - 01/24/08 03:10 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

:popcorn:


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7924645 - 01/24/08 03:11 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

My popcorn are better than yours :razz:
They're more buttery :smirk:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7924647 - 01/24/08 03:12 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Is that a sexual reference?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Icelander]
    #7924655 - 01/24/08 03:13 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Mmmmmm...buttered popcorn with curry powder.  :drooling:


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Icelander]
    #7924661 - 01/24/08 03:15 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

If you have a butter fetish :hehehe:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Veritas]
    #7924663 - 01/24/08 03:15 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Have some please.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7924670 - 01/24/08 03:16 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
If you have a butter fetish :hehehe:




Oh I do! :ass: -Last Tango in Paris


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Icelander]
    #7924682 - 01/24/08 03:18 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Ehhh...not so good with curry in that instance.  :eek:


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Veritas]
    #7924690 - 01/24/08 03:19 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
I'm saying that it seems extraordinarily naive to claim that the internet is influencing a significant portion of the population with regards to becoming more enlightened and compassionate.  Those who are interested in making positive changes within themselves and in the world around them will seek out information which facilitates such change.  These seekers are NOT a statistically significant portion of the human population.




Please, if only you knew what a statistically significant portion of the human population is capable of. :smirk:

There is no naivety in what I am proposing. Changes are readily apparent throughout reality as the Internet naturally produces changes in those who interact with it, through the proliferation of information. The Internet's role as a catalyst in many examples is well-substantiated. We'll continue to see awareness arise within people everywhere as reality begins to transform as result of how people who have benefited from the Internet initiate action.

Quote:


I use the internet to my great benefit, in many aspects of my daily life, but this use is not hugely different than the manner in which I used the library while I was growing up.  (I was homeschooled.)  I would guess that my use of the internet is highly unusual, as was my use of the library.  Few people utilize this resource for more than paying bills, shopping or looking at porn.  :shrug:




The difference lies in the efficency of utilizing the Internet. Even if someone only uses the Internet to pay bills, shop, or satisfy sexual desires, they have much more benefit in doing so. It saves time for people to spend their time doing more preferential things. Regardless, the powerful effect is occuring, no matter what a more common denominator is involved with.

Quote:


There may well be positive changes in the wind, as there have been throughout human history, but they are not likely to be global or generalized.




Why not global, considering the nature of the medium? Why not generalized, considering the effect that understanding more of reality (taking in new information, proliferated through the net) has on humans becoming more aware of reality?

Quote:


  This does not mean that your individual efforts in that direction are wasted, but rather that the expectation of the effect of your efforts could stand to be a bit more realisitic.




Nonsense, eager optimism only ever encouraged people to keep progressive in the face of challenges and opportunities, encouraging people to take action to make it happen. Realism is necessary but progressive optimism is realistic, in that it determines the course for reality to take. :craven:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7924697 - 01/24/08 03:20 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Back on topic:

FWG & MT, I think it is great that you both want to learn and grow in order to facilitate a project which is obviously of great meaning to both of you.  :thumbup:  Enthusiasm and passionate interest are the spicy sauce that makes daily life appetizing, and I applaud your efforts to actualize your values.


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7924722 - 01/24/08 03:26 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

We'll continue to see awareness arise within people everywhere as reality begins to transform as result of how people who have benefited from the Internet initiate action.

And then Middleman, Shirley McClain and the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY will take us all up to Heaven in their big Flying Spaghttie Monster Saucer where we will live in peace and tranquility and all wear fluffy little red panda jammies.:thumbup:

Oh yeah,... Amen.


Edited by Icelander (01/24/08 03:27 PM)


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Icelander]
    #7924757 - 01/24/08 03:32 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

So for the sake of realism and to resume this thread, given the information available to us about humanity, some people are pessimists, some are optimists, but nobody knows where it's heading, red pandas are cute and possibly palatable, shroomery is best. Great, at least there's discussion :alc:


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: deimya]
    #7924769 - 01/24/08 03:36 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Will you voulnteer to summarize each thread as it winds down? Would save some of us a lot of time. :thumbup:


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: deimya]
    #7924776 - 01/24/08 03:36 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

but nobody knows where it's heading

And dats da truth!:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Icelander]
    #7924802 - 01/24/08 03:43 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

I thought you were going in for orthodontic surgery... :confused:


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7924812 - 01/24/08 03:45 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

I was but I need the money for a red panda to go along with my pet rock.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7924816 - 01/24/08 03:47 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Will you voulnteer to summarize each thread as it winds down? Would save some of us a lot of time. :thumbup:




heck no, I for sure would just end up being a biased news reporter, or worst, a back cover commentator  :lipsrsealed:


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Veritas]
    #7924818 - 01/24/08 03:48 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Back on topic:

FWG & MT, I think it is great that you both want to learn and grow in order to facilitate a project which is obviously of great meaning to both of you.  :thumbup:  Enthusiasm and passionate interest are the spicy sauce that makes daily life appetizing, and I applaud your efforts to actualize your values.




Yes I agree:heart: and as we all know, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.:thumbup:(but it sure is fun gettin there)


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (01/24/08 03:50 PM)


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Icelander]
    #7924823 - 01/24/08 03:49 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

I always knew that deep in your heart you are still a Christian :heart:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7924832 - 01/24/08 03:51 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

It's bred in the bone.:(


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Icelander]
    #7924834 - 01/24/08 03:52 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Now, now, it's unlikely that there is any Heaven or Hell which we do not create within our own life experiences. If hugging Red Pandas is heavenly for some, then why not go for it? Will it really make a difference either way?


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Icelander]
    #7924835 - 01/24/08 03:52 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I was but I need  the money for a red panda to go along with my pet rock.




I must have a black thumb. My pet rock died from neglect. :frown:


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Veritas]
    #7924836 - 01/24/08 03:52 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

It might to the Pandas.:shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7924839 - 01/24/08 03:54 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
I was but I need  the money for a red panda to go along with my pet rock.




I must have a black thumb. My pet rock died from neglect. :frown:




Really? Usually they die from being overfed.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Veritas]
    #7924842 - 01/24/08 03:54 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Haha if aliens ever see our internet their gonna think were prevs. They will probley get a good laugh


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Cubie]
    #7924844 - 01/24/08 03:55 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

If?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Icelander]
    #7924845 - 01/24/08 03:55 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

The Pandas will all die eventually, anyway, as will the humans.  If we play with them during our brief mutual time on this planet, what difference does it make?  (Besides the individuals involved, I mean.)

I'd rather have a Sugar Flyer, but each to his/her own. :wink:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Veritas]
    #7924853 - 01/24/08 03:56 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
The Pandas will all die eventually, anyway, as will the humans.  If we play with them during our brief mutual time on this planet, what difference does it make? 






I think Hitler felt this way.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Icelander]
    #7924869 - 01/24/08 03:58 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

The Pandacaust?


--------------------


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Icelander]
    #7924873 - 01/24/08 03:59 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

No, Hitler did not feel that way. He thought that he could have a lasting impact upon humanity's future through "racial cleansing" and eugenics. He had no sense of perspective.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Veritas]
    #7924894 - 01/24/08 04:03 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

He did like to play with people though. He was a fungi.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Veritas]
    #7924901 - 01/24/08 04:04 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

eugenics.

I didn't know he was black?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Icelander]
    #7924902 - 01/24/08 04:04 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

More like mold. :tongue:


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7924941 - 01/24/08 04:14 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Lmao.


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Offlineeve69
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Veritas]
    #7924942 - 01/24/08 04:14 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Mmmmmm...buttered popcorn with curry powder.  :drooling:




In college we ate popcorn with ghee and Brewer's yeast.


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...or something







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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: eve69]
    #7924948 - 01/24/08 04:15 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

I eat popcorn with glee!:thumbup: (in the future use spell check please)


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Icelander]
    #7948641 - 01/28/08 11:59 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

I came up with this in a private message to someone else, but this part stands alone, so I thought I would contribute it here as well, since this is what we were discussing. :smile:



The concern about the natural habitat is one of the most important ones to have at this time on this planet. I think this is how the discussion naturally lead into discussion of hunting, as well as farming, which is a word that probably draws with it a lot of negative preconceptions, considering what the word has traditionally represented (an iguana farm preserves the natural habitat and creates wealth for people in an environment that has suffered greatly at the hands of Western civilization). :tongue:

I do see a natural trend towards an increasing transparency of humanity's footprint on this planet. I don't think our population is capable of sustaining much more human life; it seems that we are pretty much at our capacity (I believe Silversoul has referred to some studies on this). The cost of oil in the last several years, fueled mostly by the exponential development in countries like China, India, and Russia, as well as the added consumption by Americans for the Iraqi War, and coupled with a natural economic downturn in The United States will help influence more innovative technology, especially in energy. The American dollar will be much more worthless than other currency, and the cost of importation will be increasingly higher as the demand for oil in Asia continues to increase. America lost the strategic positioning for the Middle East's oil by simple fact that they overextended themselves in order to take it, reached beyond their means, possibly due to the fact that it is just so geographically far away. :lol:

I was reading a great article about how the free market is finding more potential for profit in alternative energy, and so the incentive will continue to build for research and development of new technology. I think one of the greatest things you will see from this is a new era of solar energy. I saw pictures of a huge arrangement of mirrors in the desert out West that focuses the Sun's energy into one concentrated beam, making the yields much greater, efficent, thus cost-efficent. Why shouldn't we create a complex of effective solar energy collectors in the desert? There isn't much that lives out there, and the small things that do probably wouldn't be impeded by it too much, and it is the most brilliant way to seek to obtain energy - go directly to the source. :sun:

A point I had been getting at is that there is a limit on the amount of energy that is available to human populations because there is a limit of the amount of plant life that converts the energy and starts the food chain that brings the energy to humans. We will naturally approach a limit to our population, it seems we already have, and after that, there will be a movement back into letting natural habitat thrive, because these habitats collect and maintain much more energy. Iguanas are apparently just as tasty burgers as cows, from what I understand, and they are healthier. It is much more effective to obtain energy from a lot of iguanas than a cow, and using iguanas preserves and sustains natural habitat. :smile: You will also see the Great Plains start to appear again as well, as natural growing switchgrass and other natural plant mass is alllowed to grow for a far more efficent source of bio-energy. I'd expect to see hemp fields proliferated as well. :yesnod:

I recognize the bias that we all place in the animals that we seek to represent and associate ourselves with. It seems to be a natural manifestation in evolution. Case in point, while a lot more natural habitat would thrive with these trends, but I think you would still see a preference for not maintaining predators that are capable of physically out-matching us, posing an immediate threat to our life. Instead of wolves hunting deer, we have humans subsidizing the wolf pups into dogs (a dog shares the same psychology as a wolf pup, signifing that they never grow up) and hunting the wolf and the deer for themself. We don't like predators, and I think we'll continue to ensure we are the top of the food chain. Not only that, but it seems that a lot of predators have an appeal to the same sense that humans also hold for animals such as red pandas, beautiful tigers, prestigious lions, or striking black panthers (had a dream just hours ago of a black panther that would be sitting right by the door of my house, and I would always have to go back inside before it killed me, I think one point I was speculating on how it would feel to get jumped and to just feel a foot get crunched off... nevertheless, I believe I called the DNR to come take care of it :lol:). Humans have the bias of being human. :shrug:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7949730 - 01/29/08 09:39 AM (16 years, 3 days ago)

I agree. I want to save a very loving and affectionate and endangered animal myself. I don't understand why others don't feel this way. Anyway if you want one of the litter, contact me in PM.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (01/29/08 09:39 AM)


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