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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Icelander]
    #7915264 - 01/22/08 03:41 PM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Is it wrong to approach a red-haired hippie chick in the wild?


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7915404 - 01/22/08 04:13 PM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

If it tastes good, and the rights of animals are respected in a careful, intelligent manner




You cannot respect somethings "rights" if you kill it and eat it. If you can kill it then it must follow that it has no rights. If it had rights (something that it could proclaim) then you WOULD NOT be able to kill it. If you want to be an animal rights supporter fine, but you can't really ride the fence on this issue. They either have rights or not. The right to be treated humanely until something kills you for food is NOT a right. Who is being ridiculous now :lol: You do have rights. Can we kill you for food?

Quote:

A right must be exercised through your own initiative and action. It is not a claim on others. A right is not actualized and implemented by the actions of others.




This means that animals cannot have rights. We merely have a responsibility to our world as it's self proclaimed lords...or not.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


Edited by Huehuecoyotl (01/22/08 04:20 PM)


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7916311 - 01/22/08 06:47 PM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

You cannot respect somethings "rights" if you kill it and eat it. If you can kill it then it must follow that it has no rights. If it had rights (something that it could proclaim) then you WOULD NOT be able to kill it. If you want to be an animal rights supporter fine, but you can't really ride the fence on this issue. They either have rights or not. The right to be treated humanely until something kills you for food is NOT a right.




Why?
Because others say so?
For example I love cows and I also love to eat their meat. And I don't see any contradiction in that.
I guess it depends on how you understand this issue regarding respecting life.
We were hunters once and in the same time we treated life with respect, we did not practice overkilling.

I think that what he meant by "respectful, careful and intelligent manner" leaves room for enough interpretation so it does actually make sense.
Let me give you an example: the E.U. has taken some important steps regarding the methods in which animals are killed:

Quote:

The live export trade in tiny calves was stopped in the 1990's, due to BSE fears and the worldwide ban on British beef and calf exports. Instead, a Government scheme, the Calf Processing Aid Scheme, paid farmers to have these calves killed when just days old. This scheme was terminated in 1999. Male calves - the unwanted by-products of the dairy industry - continue to be treated like disposable waste rather than as sentient beings. All too often, they are likely to face an early death. Government advice for killing calves on farm is that "a free bullet or shotgun are preferred methods".




From: http://www.vegansociety.com/html/animals/exploitation/cows/dairy_cow.php

Also:

Quote:

Farm animals have very little protection under the law in the United States. There is no federal law that provides standards for the rearing of farm animals The majority of states exempt
customary farm animal practices from the scope of their animal cruelty laws. Since factory farming is customary, little can be done in these states about lack of room for the animals to turn
around or spread their wings, or about deficient diets, de-beaking, force-feeding, castration
without anesthesia and so on. In those states with animal cruelty laws that do not specifically exempt farm animals, there is a tendency by law enforcement officers not to arrest farmers who are employing common farm practices, even when such practices are obviously cruel. The
cruelty laws are most used when animals are found dying from exposure to the elements or from lack of food and water.

The treatment of farm animals is much better in Europe. The European Union which is a group of several European countries is moving far ahead of the united states in its efforts to minimize cruelty to farm animals(see main article)

For a comprehensive look at the US farm animals' legal plight, read David Wolfson's Beyond The Law Agribusiness and the Systemic Abuse of Animals Raised for Food or Food Production.




From: http://www.ari-online.org/pages/europe_3_summary.html

Now, aren't these also animal rights?
Couldn't one argue that this method of killing has taken steps towards being more respectful and intelligent?

Now let's imagine this scenario: for some reason red pandas will start reproducing at such a speed that it becomes a threat to them (lack of space, food or other means of survival).
How do you see killing & eating some of them in such a circumstance? Does such a measure respect life or not?
What I am trying to point out is that it's not all that black and white.
Situations may vary and change and also our views on them. Why should we tie ourselves to a strict and  rigid definition of what "rights" are?

Quote:

This means that animals cannot have rights. We merely have a responsibility to our world as it's self proclaimed lords...or not.




Of course it does.
We can pick on the signals that animals are sending and we can understand how they feel.
Let's say we observe the behavior of red pandas. We become aware of their main personality traits and soon we realize that these playful animals seem to enjoy living life. In a certain but definite measure I can say that this is how their exercise their will to live, it's still an initiative on their side, the intention to live. :heart:
It might not be expressed in the same manner as we humans are used to do it (in an invasive manner), but we can still understand what's happening there.
When you see new born crying, you can't say that he is not expressing his sadness or fear regarding something just because he didn't tell you that, can you?
Keeping that in mind, the same thing goes for any other living creature, in this case I shall keep the example with red pandas, because that's the subject. :smile: We realize what's happening to them, and if our intention is to be honest we will soon realize that, through their actions, they make an affirmation, a statement: that living creates joy for them.

Let's take a look at them:






I take this as an affirmation of love for life. :heartpump:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7916394 - 01/22/08 06:57 PM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
I love cows and I also love to eat their meat.
And I don't see any contradiction in that.





Well now....    I don't think the cow will be complaining....!    :naughty:
:tongue:


You guys sure seem to be taking this panda thing seriously....
I like the pictures, and I have learned a lot more about Red Pandas, that is fo~ sho~....    :smile:    :thumbup:


>^;;^<


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I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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InvisibleIcelander
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Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Red Pandas [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7916540 - 01/22/08 07:20 PM (16 years, 10 days ago)

For example I love cows and I also love to eat their meat. And I don't see any contradiction in that.

I love you Mushroom trip.:heart: I would also like to kill you and eat you.:thumbup: :crazy2:

Well at least eat you.:doggystyle:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Icelander]
    #7917181 - 01/22/08 09:06 PM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
No an I've never tripped with a grizzly bear or a black panther either.




Of course, the idea of tripping with a dog or a cat is perfectly common, and happens with positive benefits. Grizzly bears and black panther are naturally carnivores that are likely not very receptive to direct interaction with humans, although that is really just a question of how they are raised from babies in relation to humans, no different than the manner in which puppies and kitties are raised in relation to humans. I've heard of pet bears before, though.

Quote:


My dear boy, I will guess that I have had a ton more exposure to nature and animals than you have.




Appeal to authority? Nah, it couldn't be. :smirk:

Quote:


I have spent a lot of time in true wilderness and back country and grew up fishing hiking and hunting, bird watching, animal watching, dog and cat owning,(and I have observed dogs and cats gone back wild)




That's wonderful. :smile:

Quote:


While we lived in relation to animals throughout our history it was in the woods and plains and not in our living room where we are lord and master and expect animals to behave according to our culture. Having been a dog trainer for a few years I know quite a bit about this.




I'm not seeing here any credible arguement agansit an animal and a human sharing a symbiotic relationship in this manner, certainly the idea that it is more a conscious decision of the human for it to happen is not relevant. Once again, you're riding agansit the grain of evolution and history on this one. From camels and llamas to horses, elephants, and parrots, humans have made conscious decisions to enter into such a relationship, and I see no true fault in this. Animals that are more conscious than others, such as dolphins and chimpanzees, even approach playing with a human being on their own. The idea that animals do not have inner experiences and that humans cannot directly interact with them in a way that serves the quality of that experience is baseless.

Quote:


You have a pretty high and mighty attitude about our ability to evolve other life forms considering we are the most dangerous animal to their survival.




No, that is simply your projection. The relationship between humans and dogs is a great testament to our success, and the benefits we have received from living with dogs and cats. The idea you propose that human beings could not begin a path of understanding the environment and the animals that exist within it, learning how to interact in order to better the situation for everyone, is not worth serious consideration. Perhaps you fail to understand that human behavior is a natural force as well, and that, as life, we may begin to understand more about ourselves as a result, while giving other life an opportunity to continue to exist and to have quality experience while they stay on this planet with us. :mushroom2:

Quote:


While I do see benefit to keeping animals as pets (for us mostly) I see a ton of drawbacks as well (mostly for the pets).




And drawbacks for the people keeping them, and lots of advantages to these animals as well.

Quote:


Again you are being arrogant if you beleive that we are in control of extinction and survival on this planet.




We could learn how to act in accordance with the nature of reality in order to influence its course. Humans have developed agriculture thousands of years ago, so I don't comprehend where this perspective of yours results from, perhaps not this planet. When we have an intention of observing and understanding reality, we begin to actually do so, for the benefit of ourselves and other aspects of reality. Our entire history as a species is a great demonstration of this. The line you are drawing is unreasonable.

Quote:


But the part we do play is directly related to how much we are willing to share earth habitat and leave it in a natural state for animals to live in balance with their environment.




Habitat resoration and maintenance is important. The first step to achieving this is to understand the environment itself, which would require an intimate understanding of that which exists within the environment. I wonder how that starts without someone actually becoming involved with this. :lol: 

Quote:


And by the way have you ever personally interacted with a red panda. I certainly doubt it and keeping one in captivity for your pleasure would most likely cause great stress to the animal. Not many animals become domesticated willingly.




Have I? Not yet, and thankfully, there is plenty of information that demonstrates that red pandas are receptive to interacting with humans in the same habitat, and that is reason enough to gain interest in pursuing this, to see and observe what actually happens.

Stress is a sign that the psychological needs of an animal are not being met. If those needs are met, no stress. Ferrets are kept as pets and they are far too happy playing around, moving around like crazy, and getting into trouble to show any signs of stress. Of course, this is the case for almost any animal kept as a pet, of which there are a great number of, but it just goes to show how history has manifested and supported this viewpoint.

Quote:


I really don't think you know much about animal psychology at all.




We all start somewhere, and I've started a path of learning, from reading books on dogs by psychologists, to finding research articles on red pandas and bamboo, to planning an interest in zoology.

Quote:


Really, how much time have you spent in the wild and around wild animals? Have you ever really observed them in the wild with the intent to understand their behavior. I have and I plan to leave most of them alone.




A decent bit for my living situation. I look forward to spending more time doing so. You seem to hold onto a very predefined conception of the nature of life which tends to stand agansit the grain of history and what we have learned regarding evolution.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7917241 - 01/22/08 09:14 PM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
You cannot respect somethings "rights" if you kill it and eat it. If you can kill it then it must follow that it has no rights.




Well, perhaps you don't really understand what it means to be a living creature. Nature demonstrates nothing but the food chain in action. This statement of yours has no relationship with the nature of reality. Perspectives from Native American thought show us that it is likely that it was tradition for these humans to fully respect and embrace the life of other animals, even if they were taking that life. They understood that they were just the perpetuation of a natural cycle that would one day take them as well, eventually becoming the soil, providing nutrients to benefit the evolution of more life.

Clearly, this perspective you propose has no relation to nature.

Quote:


If you want to be an animal rights supporter fine, but you can't really ride the fence on this issue. They either have rights or not.




This seems to be far too simplified a viewpoint to bear relevance to the discussion.

Quote:


This means that animals cannot have rights. We merely have a responsibility to our world as it's self proclaimed lords...or not.




Exactly, we can either assume the role of being stewards for life and evolution on this planet, or not. I choose that role. Our presence on this planet to this point designates that we either choose this role or simply stand back and watch as massive extinction continues to ensue.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7918880 - 01/23/08 06:39 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
We were hunters once and in the same time we treated life with respect, we did not practice overkilling.




A lot of people continue to hunt and fish, and the majority of them are responsible stewards of the earth. If it were not for hunting and fishing, there would not be nearly as strong of a conservation effort in this country. While some animals do meet their end to become venison stocked in the deep freeze, populations of animals thrive, and their population is managed by the hunters, as regulated by the state (which receives its funding to do so from hunting), so that they do not overpopulate, consume too many resources, and face a slow death of starvation and pestilence. Hunting has raised millions of dollars for the protection of natural habitat throughout the United States. Surely, our natural habitat does not disappear because of the interest of those who seek to utilize natural habitat to maintain a symbiotic relationship with other life.

All of this is well documented and is directly demonstrated to benefit the survival and well-being of all sorts of animals that were otherwise facing extinction due to the nature of our presence. Around 1930, in the United States, white-tailed deer were thought to have a population of about 30 thousand. Conservation programs begun, funded and participated in by hunters, and now the number of white-tailed deer in the United States is around 30 million. The Greater Canadian Goose was thought to be extinct by the 1950's, until a small flock was discovered in the '60's. It is now populated throughout its range, thanks to conservation efforts. This holds true for the wild turkey, as well as many other animals.

Quote:


Now let's imagine this scenario: for some reason red pandas will start reproducing at such a speed that it becomes a threat to them (lack of space, food or other means of survival).
How do you see killing & eating some of them in such a circumstance? Does such a measure respect life or not?




All evidence points to it being more effective for populations to be regulated through hunting (in the absence of predators that perform a necessary check to maintain balance, just like all natural systems :smirk:). The interest in hunting creates incentive for habitats to be sustained and restored. The Native Americans took hides from buffalo, coyote, etc. etc. etc. and used them to keep themselves warm and comfortable. They migrated with buffalo herds with tipis with a canopy made from buffalo hides to keep shelter. They did not overhunt the buffalo and did not waste the precious resources that they provided. Symbiotic relationships are mutually beneficial, the buffalo thrived and lived what would seem a preferable life.

Quote:


What I am trying to point out is that it's not all that black and white.
Situations may vary and change and also our views on them. Why should we tie ourselves to a strict and  rigid definition of what "rights" are?




Fear, judgement, misconceptions? :smirk:

Quote:


When you see new born crying, you can't say that he is not expressing his sadness or fear regarding something just because he didn't tell you that, can you?




No, you can't say that, and humans traditonally have deep misconceptions of the usage of language by animals. We carry with us human bias that assumes that life must match up to our standard. Dogs don't talk because their physical nature, the shape of their skull, for instance, limit the ability for muscles to develop that allow them to manipulate air passing through in a great variety of ways. Bees have a very refined language that they can use to communicate new locations, maybe a mile away, to other bees. Researchers who have studied these bees were capable of cracking the code and arriving at the location before the bees did. :smile:

Quote:


I take this as an affirmation of love for life. :heartpump:




They want to play. :hug:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7919258 - 01/23/08 09:50 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

I've heard of pet bears before, though.

On one of these forums right now there is a great vid of a woman being seriously mauled by a "pet bear" . This woman was just sitting there and  the bear noticed her and just full out attacked. Nice pet, nice pet.

From camels and llamas to horses, elephants, and parrots, humans have made conscious decisions to enter into such a relationship

As their captors. I'm sure the parrot just flew into the cage and said hey dude clip my wings I hate flying and moving about. The animal that seems to have sought human co-habitation is the dog.

benefits we have received from living with dogs and cats.

Yes, we have received benefit but for the most part they have not. If you spend any time at an animal shelter you will become aware of that. Not to mention the folk that don't interact with there pets, leave them alone or always on a leash, make them a surrogate for the friends and children they can't acquire. It's really sad when you take a good look at it. I certainly doubt that red pandas want to be your pet and leave their environment.

The idea you propose that human beings could not begin a path of understanding the environment and the animals that exist within it, learning how to interact in order to better the situation for everyone, is not worth serious consideration. Perhaps you fail to understand that human behavior is a natural force as well,

:tongue: Many humans do (but obviously not many and less and less) already understand the environment and the animals that exist in it. They are trying to preserve it rather than altering it to fit our desires. There's enough of that already IMO. Of course I understand that human behavior is a natural force.:tongue: That's why I'm disputing your ideas here.

there is plenty of information that demonstrates that red pandas are receptive to interacting with humans in the same habitat,

Any animal in captivity would have to interact with humans in the same habitat. A tortured parrot in a small cage will interact with humans in an attempt to postpone insanity. I saw lots of this at the zoo and in my work with dog training and volunteering at the animal shelter, and of course in daily life. Is your information based on these animals in captivity or the wild? I doubt red pandas willfully enter into captivity.:tongue:

. You seem to hold onto a very predefined conception of the nature of life which tends to stand against the grain of history and what we have learned regarding evolution. 

:tongue::crazy2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7919296 - 01/23/08 10:19 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

LEAVE RED PANDAS ALONE ! :cryariver:


[:hehehe:]


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Icelander]
    #7919487 - 01/23/08 11:32 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
On one of these forums right now there is a great vid of a woman being seriously mauled by a "pet bear" . This woman was just sitting there and  the bear noticed her and just full out attacked. Nice pet, nice pet.




I've already stated that I personally feel that certain animals are not receptive to being kept as pets by humans. This is only logical; there isn't much benefit for either moose or man if there is a moose in a man's living room.

The question regarding the "pet bear" is the specifics of the situation in question, but its a side-point to the main discussion. I only mentioned it in passing, acknowledging that I had heard of as much. Clearly the potential for risk is there if someone attempts to live in course quarters with an animal that is naturally a carnivore and over-powers you in ways that will threaten your own survival. It is only common sense, thankfully, I'm not proposing the idea of keeping a bear as a pet in this thread. :smirk:

Quote:


As their captors. I'm sure the parrot just flew into the cage and said hey dude clip my wings I hate flying and moving about.




Amazingly enough, people keep parrots whose wings do not get clipped, and the people who tend to them take great steps towards creating an environment for them that is well-suited for the animal's needs. I've already referred to the concept of a micro-habitat. What you might not understand is that responsible pet owners go to great strides to provide their animals with the best possible treatment, to ensure their quality of life and that their psychological needs are met. Humans are capable of controlling enough variables in an environment to specifically suit them in a capable, effective manner - this is why cichlids from the lakes of Africa can flourish in a living room in America, in a tank of water weighing half a ton, the exact requirements of their water being regulated by an amateur scientist at work.

Clearly, this is why scientific understanding regarding the nature of animals is necessary, in order to understand them and what their needs are. This is also why you ensure responsible owners through unobstructive regulation, promoting education and understanding.

Quote:

The animal that seems to have sought human co-habitation is the dog.




This isn't true, neither dogs nor humans actively sought out a symbiotic relationship with the other. The fact that similar needs brought them to share the same living space, thus leading to their interaction, brought forth the relationship and the subsequent evolution of both species. I still see no reason why humans cannot consciously make decisions to seek out these cirumstances with other animals, provided that it is done in an educated, responsible manner.

Quote:


Yes, we have received benefit but for the most part they have not.




Balderdash. Dogs and cats have shared loving, playful relationships with humans. Dogs are often used in hunting and other work, and performing tasks with their alpha male, the sense of being that they derive from social interaction, benefits them. They have diets that are specially formulated for their nutritional needs, so they are healthier than ever with proper exercise, which no doubt benefits quality of life. They receive more stimulation through human interaction, since human beings are capable of interacting with them in a limitless number of ways. Dogs communicate through smell much more prominently than we do, and our world offers them a cornucopia of new sensations and experiences. I've seen dogs develop state of being that is not so evident in some humans. Anyone with a positive sense of keeping pets would not be so dismissive of the idea.

Quote:


If you spend any time at an animal shelter you will become aware of that.




Most people are too stupid to know how to raise their own children; how likely is it that you think they understand the nature and needs of another form of life? :lol:

This is why there should be more educational regulation at the point at which an animal leaves the care of a responsible, experienced person into the hands of a new owner. Pointing to the failure of those who were incapable of knowing what they were doing as failure of the concepts and ideas I have presented is a strawman.

Quote:


Not to mention the folk that don't interact with there pets, leave them alone or always on a leash, make them a surrogate for the friends and children they can't acquire. It's really sad when you take a good look at it.




Right, it is sad, but it didn't really need mentioned, beyond to present the opportunity for me to clarify that I'm not talking about what you are talking about. :smirk:

Quote:


I certainly doubt that red pandas want to be your pet and leave their environment.




What environment? They don't have much of one left. They have very specific dietary needs that are very difficult to be catered to in the environment, needs that could be amply satisfied with a bamboo grow room. :hehehe: This isn't just about pets, this is about the brink of extinction. I certainly doubt that they want to be in zoos with your logic, but its either that or extinction at this point, and the care of loving humans in a personal setting will be much more satisfying than being on display in some zoo, especially considering the observed nature of red pandas as well as their adaptability to getting along with human beings.

I can understand that, for whatever reason, you would rather let a wonderful animal go extinct because of our presence on this planet, but I see it more compassionately than that, and I'm not going to let it happen. Its a lack of interest in life itself that condemns an innocent creature to extinction, at the expense of an opportunity of a wonderful symbiotic relationship among red pandas and human beings.

Quote:


:tongue: Many humans do (but obviously not many and less and less) already understand the environment and the animals that exist in it. They are trying to preserve it rather than altering it to fit our desires. There's enough of that already IMO.




An attempt to preserve certainly sounds like an attempt to alter the course of reality to fit our desires to me. :smirk:

At any rate, evolution is a progressive movement, change. :mushroom2: Humans typically hold misconceptions of the nature of consciousness and the fact that other animals could very well be on a path of evolving consciousness as well. Perhaps we are afraid of competition, but the idea of another animal evolving to be as aware of the nature of reality as we presently are seems a very natural one, an expected course for reality to take, especially as we continue along our path of becoming more aware ourselves. Red pandas seem very receptive to a very positive, mutually-beneficial, symbiotic relationship with human beings.

Quote:


Any animal in captivity would have to interact with humans in the same habitat.




Yes, and I'm certain that some animals are more receptive to positive interaction with humans than others are. Red pandas have been observed to be very receptive to getting along with humans, at least enough for some individuals to become interested in learning more, gazing through a new perspective on the matter. :smile:

Quote:


A tortured parrot in a small cage will interact with humans in an attempt to postpone insanity.




Seems likely, but we aren't talking about a tortured parrot in a small cage, we are talking about fluffy red pandas receiving stimulating interaction from friendly humans and red panda buddies in a relaxed, natural, spacious setting, in which great care is taken to meet the physical and psychological needs of red pandas. Such is unprecedented, so to dismiss the idea based in reason and observation with irrelevant references to entirely dissimiliar hypotheticals is not necessary in this discussion.

Quote:


I doubt red pandas willfully enter into captivity.:tongue:




Neither do humans, but they still seem adequately satisfied with a system where an institution forcefully takes your wealth to economically ruin you. The power of being born into a pre-existing environment that is already suited for your presence. :smirk:

Quote:


. You seem to hold onto a very predefined conception of the nature of life which tends to stand against the grain of history and what we have learned regarding evolution. 

:tongue::crazy2:




Its plainly evident in the perspective you have put forth. Its like thinking in the past while imagining the future, without understanding the sense of the present moment and a path existing in accordance with nature to lead to that imagined future, all lying dependent upon the action we take right now. We really prevent ourselves from changing for the better when we stay stuck in unchallenged conditioning.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Icelander]
    #7919512 - 01/23/08 11:38 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

On one of these forums right now there is a great vid of a woman being seriously mauled by a "pet bear" . This woman was just sitting there and the bear noticed her and just full out attacked. Nice pet, nice pet.




Pets become violent when they're being harassed. Also a "pet bear" is kind of vague, as there are lots of kinds of bears, all with different personality traits.
Did you know that children can become violent with their parents IF the parents are acting stupid and tiresome? What does this say? That it's dangerous to grow children or that it's a good thing to learn how to behave and treat them?
I recall when I was four and I was with my mother. She kept talking to me on & on and she was really annoying, playing with my hands and other things she thoughts they were "cute" to do to child. She wouldn't notice my obvious irritation so I pinched the tip of her nose so hard that she had a small mark for a few days. Does this mean that I was a dangerous kid? :hehehe:
Pets borrow traits from their owner's character. If the owner is hysterical or has some form of anxiety, the pet will pick up on it too. If the owner is relaxed and loving, the pet will be loving too.
Just out of curiosity, did you watch any of those red panda videos? You say you have experience with animals, I am sure that you could create an idea about what kind of animals they are. :heart:
I have been around animals since I was a child and I've always love playing and connecting with them. I not even once feared animals and I realized that this makes a HUGE difference for them.

Quote:

As their captors. I'm sure the parrot just flew into the cage and said hey dude clip my wings I hate flying and moving about. The animal that seems to have sought human co-habitation is the dog.




Yes, it is true that some people do that. :frown:
But you know very well that it doesn't happen like that in all cases.
We can really connect with other animals, in a true way and not forced.
Why emphasize only a not so intelligent way of interacting with those critters?

Quote:

Yes, we have received benefit but for the most part they have not. If you spend any time at an animal shelter you will become aware of that. Not to mention the folk that don't interact with there pets, leave them alone or always on a leash, make them a surrogate for the friends and children they can't acquire. It's really sad when you take a good look at it. I certainly doubt that red pandas want to be your pet and leave their environment.




Are all pets in this situation?
It sounds to me like an over-generalization.
Just because some people behave irresponsibly with animals and they make them sad, it doesn't mean that animals are unhappy around humans. It only means that animals are unhappy around irresponsible people. I am sure you can see the difference.
Also what I am thinking about is EXACTLY trying to work on developing a deeper understanding regarding what our pets need and what makes them happy. I feel that there's so much to explore in this direction that it would be a pity to just think that there's nothing to see there.
This is probably because I had some experiences which made me think that there IS indeed room for creating a deeper bond with them. If I am mistaking I guess I shall learn, but as you seriously doubt that red pandas could enjoy our company, I seriously doubt that they wouldn't. What I do know is that I am not going to turn my back on this before trying it. :smile:
I still have something not quite clear and I hope you will shed some light for me. Are you trying to make a point that NO animals feel happy as pets, or are you referring only to red pandas? Have you ever had a pet? If yes, could you say whether it was happy or not?

I found some interesting info about the domestication of the cat:

Quote:

More than 50 million years ago, a small, "weasel-like" animal called "Miacis" roamed the Earth. Most scientists now believe that this animal was the ancestor of today's domestic cats, as well as the ancestor for other mammals including raccoons, dogs and bears. The extinct genus of species Miacis appeared in the Late Paleocene era (circa 65-42 million years ago) and were mammals of the family Miacidae, superfamily Miacoidea. They are representative of the group of early carnivores that were the ancestors of modern carnivores, ie., of the Order Carnivora. Only the species Miacis cognitus is a true Carnivora. Miacis may be considered the genus of carnivorous mammals that gave rise to all modern Carnivora. Miacis were five-clawed, about the size of a weasel (~30 cm), and lived on the North American and European continents. Some of their unique characteristics included low skulls, long slender bodies, long tails, and short legs. They had 44 teeth, although some reductions in this number were apparently in progress and some of the teeth are reduced in size. Their hind limbs were longer than their forelimbs and their pelvis was very doglike in form and structure. Miacis had retractable claws, agile joints for climbing, and binocular vision. Miacis and related forms had brains that were relatively larger than those of other creatures in the Carnivora order of that time; their increased brain size as compared with body size likely reflects an increase in intelligence. Miacis was well suited for a tree climbing lifestyle with needle sharp claws, and had limbs and joints that resemble those of modern carnivorans. Miacis was probably a very agile forest dweller that preyed upon smaller animals, such as small mammals, reptiles, and birds, and might have also have eaten eggs and fruits. It was about 40 million years ago that actual members of the cat family first appeared on our planet.

As early as 3500 B.C., Egyptians were domesticating wildcats from Africa, and these domesticated wildcats became treasured pets and were honored in many forms of artwork for their skill in hunting and killing rodents such as snakes, rats and mice. The cat's first name in Egypt was Myeo or Mau. Early Egyptians believed that the glow from a cat's eyes held captive the light of the sun.




Now I don't know what you know about cats, but it's a well known fact that they have a strong personality and that they do only what they want. How do you explain yourself the fact they stay around humans? Even if they leave (because it's in their nature to wander around), most of them come back to their owners. Why do you think they would do that, for other reason than them wanting to be there? They love to cuddle and they love to get human attention in all it's forms.
I have two cats, and let me tell you that it is THEM who seek attention (s well as other times they just turn their asses on me when they don't feel like seeing me around :lol:). They are wonderful and loving beings. :smile:
This is him

And this is her


While these particular cats are lovely and sweet, other cats can be a threat. I have a friend who was attacked by someone's Burmese and from what she told me she was pretty shocked by it's barbaric approach. From what I gathered, the owner has a very aggressive temper as well. Well, for me, that's a clear sign that some animals can borrow so much from our personality, which only leads me to the conclusion that they are compatible with us. :smile:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7920126 - 01/23/08 02:44 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

How do you explain yourself the fact they stay around humans?:rofl2:

Humans provide an easy living for them which insures their survival. Take away the food and warm house and see how long they stick around.  Kittens are encultured around humans and so lose the ability to fend for themselves. Most feral cats that were once domestic starve or become easy prey because they have lost their instinctual edge. And of course they seek attention. That's natural enough. That doesn't mean much at all. A lion will seek attention from a zoo keeper when in the mood. But if you gave them their instincts back in full and opened the cage with a place to go. They would go. I believe the same is true for cats. The fact that they are domesticated keeps them in place. But I can see your POV as you are also domesticated. :monkeydance: Just try not to masturbate in front of the paying customers.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleim_on_a_boat
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Registered: 04/06/06
Posts: 3,950
Re: Red Pandas [Re: Icelander]
    #7920694 - 01/23/08 05:07 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7823686#7823686

already been there

feral red panda gang ON YO ASS.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Icelander]
    #7922993 - 01/24/08 02:26 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Humans provide an easy living for them which insures their survival.




No, that isn't how cats first began to interact with humans. The living circumstances of early humans would naturally attract the presence of cats, who benefited from a symbiotic relationship with humans. It isn't as though the first human went out from a cave with a dish and yelled "Here kitty kitty kitty". :smirk:

So, it could be said that the cat-human relationship started when both animals sought out an easier form of living, which brings question to your argument, as though an easier form of living was not preferable. I'd have to assume that it is in the interest of most animals to live and to not go extinct. Animals like red pandas are not capable of making conscious decisions like "Should I go live with humans and not go extinct here?", but it doesn't mean that we should not ask the question.

Quote:


Kittens are encultured around humans and so lose the ability to fend for themselves. Most feral cats that were once domestic starve or become easy prey because they have lost their instinctual edge.




Yes, but this arguement makes no sense when we aren't talking about taking animals out from the wild, raising them in relation to ourselves, and then going back out and dumping them in the wild, unable to survive in an environment in which they weren't raised in.

The only legitamate question regarding this is whether or not it is ethical for humans to bring animals to coexist with them in a new environment, and whether it is psychologically satisfying to the animal. This is the question that we are interested in pursuing - not some kind of vicious neglect and irrelevant situations that you continue to present. :lol:

Quote:


And of course they seek attention. That's natural enough. That doesn't mean much at all. A lion will seek attention from a zoo keeper when in the mood. But if you gave them their instincts back in full and opened the cage with a place to go. They would go.




Instincts as the defining factor of how animals are to be? :strokebeard: Curiously enough, instincts haven't held humans back from evolution, although they still seem to manifest in our behavior, until that is consciously transcended as well. Evolution occurs over time. New instincts are manifested behavior emerge over time, over successive generations. This is plainly evident in the case of the dog. The ingrained psychology of a dog is very similar to that of a wolf pup. Did you know that the environment tends to favor the re-emergence of specific traits, through genetics? An appeal agansit evolution that is based upon the past denies the act of evolution, occuring in the present, changing the trends for the future. No one asked humans if they wanted to live this life. There is no preferred state for life to exist in, our environment determines how our genetics manifest. I see nothing unethical about bringing animals into new environments and taking good care of them. :wink:

Quote:


I believe the same is true for cats. The fact that they are domesticated keeps them in place. But I can see your POV as you are also domesticated. :monkeydance:




Every animal is conditioned into their state of existence. Do you feel it is more preferable for a human to be conscious and cultured, or feral and driven by instinct? Which one produces awareness and understanding of the nature of reality? Why do you have reservations agansit other species becoming more conscious, or, at the very least, living in a new environment and sharing a symbiotic relationship with humans?

The concept of a micro-habitat is a plausible and interesting one, and could include interaction with human beings. I see human beings starting to create entire worlds of environment and experience for themselves and other life all over, especially as our technology and our understanding of our environment and other life increases. Entire ecosystems can be created in the backyard, and red pandas can cuddle up to sleep, touching our feet underneath the covers. :heartpump:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineCubie
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Icelander]
    #7923002 - 01/24/08 02:34 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

I want one.or 2 for population help.
Id make my backyard a bamboo jungle.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7923093 - 01/24/08 04:39 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

You missed my point. Unless you understand the meaning of "rights" you can't rebut my post. What you have posted does not relate to what I said.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7923098 - 01/24/08 04:42 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Well, perhaps you don't really understand what it means to be a living creature.




Lol....I AM A LIVING CREATURE!!! Come on!!!


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Icelander]
    #7923104 - 01/24/08 04:45 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

I think that it is a tragedy that the Red Pandas have to live in such an imperfect world as ours. So, lets hunt them to extinction.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineCubie
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7923119 - 01/24/08 04:59 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

I think everyone should have them as pets and love um and play with them. There obviously much cooler then cats or dogs. If they were available to people and a lot of people got um their population would go up pretty fast.


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