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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Yuck fireworks, I can't believe you propose this shit.
the point well missed by them is that this would secure the survival of an endangered species.
Survival is not the issue here. We already have cows. Lets not turn predators into them. It goes against their nature and causes them untold emotional harm. (I have worked in a Zoo and witnessed this first hand). I would much rather let them die out then see them oppressed such as humans are and our other domestic animals.
Please don't fool yourself into thinking that we would provide a realistic lifestyle for them. Tigers need vast acreage for their territory and that would never be economically feasible.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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TheCow
Stranger

Registered: 10/28/02
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Quote:
fireworks_god said: they could even be given the opportunity to live naturally, by creating an enclosure that resembles their ideal habitat, a micro-habitat tailored to the animal, and they could be harvested by trained hunters.
 Yes thats exactly how capitalism works. If by ideal habitat you mean a few feet to move around and hunter you mean that pneumatic gun.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Quote:
Icelander said: Yuck fireworks, I can't believe you propose this shit.
Why not? You aren't interested in using our consciousness to benefit the survival of all life? This is our planet; we're floating along here around the Sun, existing as the Sun, and since we're here, we might as well interact with all of the life around us. We can instill consciousness within them, you know. This is directly evident in the powerful relationships that can develop between humans and dogs and cats. I've seen dogs with more being than some people.
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Survival is not the issue here. We already have cows. Lets not turn predators into them. It goes against their nature and causes them untold emotional harm. (I have worked in a Zoo and witnessed this first hand). I would much rather let them die out then see them oppressed such as humans are and our other domestic animals.
Please don't fool yourself into thinking that we would provide a realistic lifestyle for them. Tigers need vast acreage for their territory and that would never be economically feasible.
Well, of course, what you describe is not preferable, but the fact is evident that I'm not talking about zoos, which are a perfect example of what you are describing.
What I was describing would be fundamentally different, because the intention of holding the animals would not be for them to be easily displayed to a public interested at staring at them and not having to walk too far ( ), but, rather, to create an environment ideally suited to the territorial and psychological needs of the animal.
Of course, with the potential of commercial profit, habitat restoration in the wild would carry with it more incentives. Africans would no longer have to rape their land in order to survive in a capitalist civilization that forced itself upon them, but could benefit from being stewards of their land. There are well-documented reports that iguana farms sustain the well-being of tropical rain forests and iguanas more than slash-and-burn farming techniques and the introduction of cattle could accomplish in that respect. Not only that, but iguana meat was used as a replacement in the United Kingdom for beef during the Mad Cow Disease scare. I'm certain it is much more healthy than corn and antibiotics-raised cows. The fact is, that opportunities such as this create more wealth in third-world countries, also opening the doors for tourism, which could really bring more money to people who would profit more from maintaining the well-being of their environment. What is being referred to as an example here, but is a movement that is occuring out there, could end poverty in third-world countries.
Of course, I wasn't personally proposing this as any more than an example of how we can form misconceptions about what is ethical regarding animals, which still has not been disputed. The Native Americans lived for thousands of years on the Great Plains migrating with the buffalo, involved in a symbiotic relationship that perpetuated both buffalo and Native Americans. The Native Americans were their stewards, and they lived well as well from assuming the role. Somewhere, there is still the idea that human beings have evolved to care for the planet. Later, when tribes like the Sioux obtained horses, the relationship shared amongst human beings, buffalo, and the horse is very poetic and beautiful, and benefited the interests of all.
So, let's review so far. You can't believe I'm proposing an idea that humans could benefit the habitat of all of these animals, and the environment ourselves, by creating opportunities for commercial profit that would bring investment in our environment? Why not, when, throughout history, human beings have evolved in relation to all sorts of life around us?
Should humans never raise crops to eat? Should humans never take leaves from a plant to cure a disease? Native Americans had more regard for the life that fate designated they took than anyone nowadays, with the exception of hunters and fishers, whose conservation efforts are textbook and inspiring. I've never said anything about the unethical treatment of animals, and, just as I predicted in my first post, there are people who will get hysterically unreasonable about the subject, ignoring the history of this planet, man's relationships with animals, the needs of our environment, and the well-being of all life.
Of course, I was proposing the idea of red pandas being pets, which I see nothing objectionable about. There territorial and psychological needs could be well-satisfied in a person's home, supplemented by the special care of a loving human being. I see no reason to suspect that this relationship would not be beneficial for a red panda. People have kept tigers as pets successfully, which is something I personally think is a little unsustainable, given the natural aspects of a tiger, but the point is that positive relationships do develop, for the benefit of both.
I see no reason to think that the brains of other mammals could not evolve, especially as the result of our close interaction with them. Ours have developed because of the stimulus they have received over the course of time. We've developed a great ability to evolve a species over time, look to the wide spectrum amongst dog breeds. I don't think dogs have objected to living in relation to us, as they were receptive to being able to, and then it simply happened. I see no reason to think that other animals could not become more conscious through interacting with us, especially over time, with evolution.
Nothing but unreasonable objections, but at least it gave me an opportunity to refine my thoughts on the matter.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Red Pandas [Re: TheCow]
#7914278 - 01/22/08 11:25 AM (16 years, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
TheCow said:
 Yes thats exactly how capitalism works. If by ideal habitat you mean a few feet to move around and hunter you mean that pneumatic gun.
Well, actually, no.... that's not what I meant, and I think reading-comprehension might go a long way towards implying as much. 
Clearly there would be ethical standards, which would be regulated by law. If a tiger farm ever manifested in the United States of America, it would happen out West, sparsely populated and vast desert as it is. Personally, though, I would tend towards habitat restoration providing the means of a natural habitat for animals, but I see nothing wrong with such an idea. There are buffalo ranches, and they've directly impacted the survival of a species that man drove towards extinction in order to perform genocide to another group of their own kind. They are full of respect for the animal, and, at the same time, humans benefit as well.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Nothing but unreasonable objections, but at least it gave me an opportunity to refine my thoughts on the matter. 
Unreasonable for you maybe but not for me. Remaking the world in our liberal image is not something I want to contemplate. If we want animals in our world then we might leave them some space, wild and apart from our intervention and they will do just fine. Almost every effort at "saving nature" according to our vision of what nature is and needs, backfires. And keeping animals as pets to "evolve" them is hubris IMO. They really don't need our help if they are to survive. They need to be left in the balance that they have evolved into. If that balance is upset to the point they can't survive then they will be gone.
I see a vision of a farm that stretches around the world, everything is flat and level and even, just like all of us, we all have our little cubes to live in and we all have our furry pets that act as substitutes for our infantile insecurities. And we all eat lots of cheese.
The only reason I see that makes the little red panda so cute is that they look infantile. We tend to see them as lovable and innocent. What you (want to) see isn't always what you get.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (01/22/08 12:46 PM)
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
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Quote:
Middleman said:
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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im_on_a_boat
Stranger

Registered: 04/06/06
Posts: 3,950
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LOL OMG LOL SO CLEVER
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
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Cool, let raise Siberian Tigers on farms like cows! Kodiak bear farms next. We also may as well give Polar bear farming a shot while we are at it. Anyone up for milking a Grizzly?
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Did you guys watch the videos? These Red Pandas are as harmless as cats.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Cats are not harmless. They have a dramatic negative effect on bird populations in many cities. This is exactly what I'm talking about. When we think we know what will happen when we play with natural balances we are seldom correct. There really are many examples of this.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (01/22/08 02:15 PM)
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Quote:
Icelander said: Unreasonable for you maybe but not for me. Remaking the world in our liberal image is not something I want to contemplate.
Why not? Moral objections that cloud reason? Instinctual fear of close association with other life? Death anxiety?
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If we want animals in our world then we might leave them some space, wild and apart from our intervention and they will do just fine.

I beg to differ. Humans have lived in relation with thousands of animals throughout the years. I wonder if you realize how much of your personality is derived from thousands of years of our species living in a symbiotic relationship with dogs, for instance... Or, how much of where we are in this moment is resultant from past interactions with animals in our past. The perspective you present here is in denial of the vast history of this planet, and of evolution itself.
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And keeping animals as pets to "evolve" them is hubris IMO.
Why is that? Some people are capable of having healthy relationships with animals. This isn't a weakness, but a strength. We learn and develop and evolve through interaction with other life. We become more than human. Interaction with animals is therapeutic. People don't dismiss candles and massage and sex as hubris, but people tend to be ignorant of the nature of reality around them, to the point that they would not embrace the opportunity to live a life filled with furry, cuddly creatures full of love and play.
Could you imagine tripping with a red panda? There is this very adult bias in a lot of people's thinking that it is not beneficial to embrace the child-like curiousity and joy and peace in living. Its a strange idea, especially in the psychadelic community, that life is to be enjoyed and to be lived, and to be loved.
Anyone who has had a big fish tank with two oscars that have grown from little things to huge Amazon gods knows that having pets is evolution in progress. I researched into what their needs were and worked towards providing them with a more suitable habitat. I learned a lot about my own environment in comparison, and have often considered the water we are immersed within that we do not even see because we exist within it.
You're struggling agansit the riptide if you don't see any kind of inherent value in humans keeping animals with them as "pets".
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They really don't need our help if they are to survive.
Why not? We need their help for us to survive just as much as they need our help for them to survive. Humans have a lot to learn about the life around them and the nature of reality itself. We needed the help of dogs to survive in the past; our relationship with them has been pivotal for the evolution of both of us. We need to help ourselves by helping them.
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They need to be left in the balance that they have evolved into.
We've been at war with nature for far too long to think it isn't our responsiblity to take measures to actively restore the sustainability of the environment and the life that exists within it. It is our responsibility as life, and it is a great opportunity for us to evolve ourselves.
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If that balance is upset to the point they can't survive then they will be gone.
And we all say and write it off as an unfortunate event?
Fuck that dude, I'm not that apathetic. The greatest way we influence the course of reality for the better is by taking action, in accordance with the nature of reality, that moves along progress and evolution. It will take innovative and resourceful ideas, acted upon by progressive individuals who find a path for reality to follow, to restore the sustainability of our environment, and to assure the survival of the life around us. The idea that humans can gain from a symbiotic relationship with other animals while they gain something from us as well is one that has arisen countless time and time again, throughout the course of history. There is even a Biblical metaphor that alludes to a time in which humans devaste their environment through their own ignorance, to the point that an effort based on sustaining the life in accordance with the nature of reality (building a craft that can float in a flood ), would ensure the survival of all life.
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I see a vision of a farm that stretches around the world, everything is flat and level and even, just like all of us, we all have our little cubes to live in and we all have our furry pets that act as substitutes for our infantile insecurities. And we all eat lots of cheese.
You need to open your eyes before you read and look around. I haven't seen such a pessimistic viewpoint in quite some time.
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The only reason I see that makes the little red panda so cute is that they look infantile. We tend to see them as lovable and innocent. What you (want to) see isn't always what you get.
No, what makes the red panda so cute is their nature. Their being. Animals have a state of existence too, you understand. The manner in which their existence manifests is one that is very receptive to interaction with human beings. This has been documented in their relationships thusfar with humans, and also noted in the appeal they have to humans. The Japanese have had a crush on them recently.

This is reason enough to begin research and observation on red pandas sharing a habitat with loving humans. The fact that they are endangered in the wild is exponentially more incentive to find an effective way to secure their population. Chinchillas faced extinction before they were raised to be pets, and now they thrive in the wild as well as in the hearts of people who care for them.
Life evolves when it comes together much more than when it divides itself. Letting species die is killing ourselves. 
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said: Cool, let raise Siberian Tigers on farms like cows! Kodiak bear farms next. We also may as well give Polar bear farming a shot while we are at it. Anyone up for milking a Grizzly?
Such hysterical sensationalism. What are you even responding to, but your own misconceived preconceptions of what is being stated here? 
Try to assume its a positive idea to consider, and then see how it could work, in an effective, ethical way.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Quote:
Icelander said: Cats are not harmless. They have a dramatic negative effect on bird populations in many cities. 
And that could not have been easily predictable?
If anything, the cats benefit the bird populations by making them more conscious of their surroundings in order to survive. The bird populations evolve for the better in the presence of the cat. This works to the effect that birds can be enjoyed in the background areas of the city, but won't directly interfere in the day of the humans who commute around the city.
Quote:
This is exactly what I'm talking about. When we think we know what will happen when we play with natural balances we are seldom correct. There really are many examples of this.
That is why we begin scientifically understanding the life around us, so we can learn more about our environment, so that we can assure its continual sustainability for our own life, and other life as well. Interacting with animals like red pandas in microhabitats specifically suited for the animal and their being would give us the opportunity to better understand reality, and life itself. You've demonstrated a need to understand reality more, so here's the path towards doing so.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Kung Pao Panda recipe
1 lb Panda (thinly sliced)
1 small egg, beaten
1/4 cup water
1/4 cup cornstarch
1/2 teaspoon salt
2 green onions (white part sliced and greens cut into 1/2-inch pieces)
1 red pepper, chunked
1 green pepper, chunked
1 small zucchini, chunked
1/3 cup water
2 1/2 tablespoons soy sauce
1 tablespoon cornstarch (dissolved in 1 Tbsp cold water)
1 teaspoon rice wine vinegar
2 tablespoons vegetable oil, divided
1 teaspoon garlic, minced
1/4 teaspoon ground ginger
1/4 teaspoon red pepper flakes
granulated sugar, sprinkled in (to your taste)
1/3 cup peanuts, dry-roasted
4 cups cooked white rice (Botan, sticky rice)
Combine meat in a zip-type bag with egg, water, cornstarch and salt; marinate chilled, for at least 30 minutes.
Prep and chill veggies.
Combine water and soy sauce, stir in dissolved cornstarch and rice wine, chill to reserve.
About 20 minutes before serving time (be sure to get rice started) heat about 1-Tbsp of oil in hot wok. Stir meat, drain and discard marinade. Quickly stir-fry the meat in oil, for 60-90 seconds. Transfer to a large container. Stir meat, drain and discard marinade. Stir-fry the red and yellow peppers until almost tender; add green onions and zucchini, reserve with meat.
Heat the remaining oil and stir-fry garlic, season with pepper flakes and ginger.
Stir the reserved sauce mixture before pouring into seasoned garlic. Heat through to thicken. Sweeten to taste with sugar, adding a bit more ginger and/or red pepper flakes, as needed. Add cooked food to sauce and stir in peanuts.
Serve over hot rice.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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If it tastes good, and the rights of animals are respected in a careful, intelligent manner, then why not? People eat bugs.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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I don't think I could eat a red panda though.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Raccoons rule! And they originated the 'bandit look' which the pandas later adopted. 
They are cuter:

And friskier:
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Raccoons are another example of animals that have been kept as pets successfully.
I have a video of red pandas mating around here somewhere...
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Could you imagine tripping with a red panda?
No an I've never tripped with a grizzly bear or a black panther either.
My dear boy, I will guess that I have had a ton more exposure to nature and animals than you have. I have spent a lot of time in true wilderness and back country and grew up fishing hiking and hunting, bird watching, animal watching, dog and cat owning,(and I have observed dogs and cats gone back wild) While we lived in relation to animals throughout our history it was in the woods and plains and not in our living room where we are lord and master and expect animals to behave according to our culture. Having been a dog trainer for a few years I know quite a bit about this.
You have a pretty high and mighty attitude about our ability to evolve other life forms considering we are the most dangerous animal to their survival. While I do see benefit to keeping animals as pets (for us mostly) I see a ton of drawbacks as well (mostly for the pets).
Again you are being arrogant if you beleive that we are in control of extinction and survival on this planet. But the part we do play is directly related to how much we are willing to share earth habitat and leave it in a natural state for animals to live in balance with their environment.
And by the way have you ever personally interacted with a red panda. I certainly doubt it and keeping one in captivity for your pleasure would most likely cause great stress to the animal. Not many animals become domesticated willingly.
I really don't think you know much about animal psychology at all. Really, how much time have you spent in the wild and around wild animals? Have you ever really observed them in the wild with the intent to understand their behavior. I have and I plan to leave most of them alone.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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