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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
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Tchan909 said: This is very true. And MY point is that this will be achieved through civility and understanding, not blatant antagonism of other people's beliefs.
I agree as well; I just don't know how we got down this avenue of discussion in the first place, since it seems mutually self-evident.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Quote:
Tchan909 said: Half of the ten commandments seem like common sense to me. I don't see how it's okay to murder or steal, and people who do it should be punished. To say that is a Christian belief is ludicrous.
Well, it is a Christian belief, and I think her point is that is is common sense. Its a natural order that is established in society, due to self-interest. For us to hold forwards the views because of the Christian world-view, as many do, and as many think Christianity's absence would mean people would become permissive to these ideas, is counter-productive to society's evolution as a whole.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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rizingfire
Mycoticus psychoticus




Registered: 09/10/07
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Loc: North-east USm'f'nA
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Re: Everyone [Re: Love Cap]
#7907682 - 01/20/08 10:09 PM (16 years, 12 days ago) |
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We all have plenty of opportunities to pay it forward. My wife and I went to a shelter last week and gave out $200 in $5 gift cards to the homeless people. It really made them feel better and we met some nice people, some of whom were really making an effort to get their lives together. Since I was there and now I am pretty well provided for, we have only according to the measure that we give. When you don't have much and you give anyway you get blessed much more than when you can afford it. If everyone in this country that had a good income took on helping one person there would be no homeless problem in the country. There are sooo many millionaires in America it isn't even funny. Network marketing and the internet has made it possible for anyone who wants it to have a better life. I don't give a fuck who you are or what's your excuse, 9x out of 10 I can say I have been through worse and came out on top anyway. I give God the credit for most of it but my decision to accept the incoming prosperity had to be made before the money would start coming. Luckily that part is over now and we are at the cash the checks stage and finish off our debts completely. I am hoping on this big job. We want to go find out what they all need and we are gonna buy it for them. Like hygeine stuff etc, and prob a gift card to a dunkin donuts so they can have a reason to be inside when it is cold...they can sip it and sit there for a couple hours.
Life is really pathetic and worthless if you don't put others 1st. Most people that are rich didn't get there by thinking of themselves...only that burned out exec who will eventually blow his own brains out after the wife takes off with the kid.What fun is that money?
-------------------- aka NHMI
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
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Yes, you are speaking your mind, which feels that they should. This is evidenced, as you have already stated as much. The fact that you are speaking your mind doesn't mean that speaking your mind doesn't mean you don't mean what you meant.
You caught me 
You have made me think a lot about the word "should", and how reality has no interest in conforming to our abstractions and ideas that we impose on reality, and that it may even be harmful to impose these abstractions as they are in a way not honest with the way things naturally unfold. You have even got me thinking that it is against the Tao to be making any kind of judgment at all. You present your arguments pretty well. I have held these opinions in the past, but I did find it interesting to take on the side of the bible as it seemed to make some of my more dormant issues become apparent so I could observe them for what they really are. Now the question is what do I want to will, rather than what do I indirectly choose based on an idea of what I should be doing. For me, these two somehow always intermingle and I feel that my will is always based off a judgment of reality rather than a moment to moment awareness of what is happening. Could you tell me why that is?
As for Icelander, I find it funny that he doesn't like me being here anymore because I actually think we share a lot of the same opinions most of the time.
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Quote:
...
Life is really pathetic and worthless if you don't put others 1st. Most people that are rich didn't get there by thinking of themselves...only that burned out exec who will eventually blow his own brains out after the wife takes off with the kid.What fun is that money?
And now this post has me rethinking all the previous arguments and making me respect the Bible again, because I think about how most people are not at the stage where they are very conscious of reality and so right now we depend on money and other people and I think if there weren't groups of people specifically dedicated to helping people, or people whose self-interest was in helping other people then EVERYONE would suffer.
None of us would have anything if we didn't rely on the love and care of others who concern themselves with the greater good, even when it wasn't comfortable for them.
Not saying that only the Bible has these ideas, but I've really only started thinking this way after started reading it
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Love Cap
Wanderer



Registered: 09/16/07
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Does anyone here REALLY think that we're the only animals that have this kind of consciousness JUST to make ourselves more comfortable? Yeah, we can't forget that we're animals, but we're obviously more than JUST animals here, shouldn't we be trying to figure out why? Aren't we just going to get bored with buying more things for ourselves and sitting on our couches not doing anything? Like I said before.. to the earth right now, we're just a bunch of fucking monkeys makings dumb shit to choke out the earth. I don't think we're supposed to be doing that.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
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Tchan909 said: Half of the ten commandments seem like common sense to me. I don't see how it's okay to murder or steal, and people who do it should be punished. To say that is a Christian belief is ludicrous.
Well, it is a Christian belief, and I think her point is that is is common sense. Its a natural order that is established in society, due to self-interest. For us to hold forwards the views because of the Christian world-view, as many do, and as many think Christianity's absence would mean people would become permissive to these ideas, is counter-productive to society's evolution as a whole.
Yes, that's exactly what I was saying.  There's this interesting and wise quote from K-pax regarding punishing, the movie is a fiction, but this doesn't mean that the idea doesn't stand on it's own if interpreted with reason. 
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* Every being in the universe knows right from wrong, Mark.
* Let me tell you something, Mark. You humans, most of you, subscribe to this policy of an eye for an eye, a life for a life, which is known throughout the universe for its... stupidity. Even your Buddha and your Christ had quite a different vision; but nobody's paid much attention to them, not even the Buddhists or the Christians.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Ginseng1
Elegant Universe



Registered: 09/02/04
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MushroomTrip said: ARGUMENT TO THE FUTURE in a logical fallacy.
This statement stands out to me.
Logical fallacy? Isn't logic mainly based on science? And isn't one of science's function to make extremely accurate predictions? So if science is making a prediction about our planets future, then wouldn't it be a logical fallacy NOT to argue the possible future? Our sense of *time* is the tool we need to use to grow and move forward in the relationship with ourselves and our environment. We are doomed to repeat our past, unless we adress it with a will to really change.
Humans are as confused and seperated as ever. Looking at the past, our possible future, and coming up with solutions in this cycle of fear and ignorance, shows a great will for a better "everything". It shows a respoinsiblity to the divine essence that is life.
The OP made a great point. I would have to agree with it whole heartedly. Why do we keep arguing? We never get anywhere. We need unification, and that begins with love. We never look at new ideas, instead we only look at our fallacies and bandage them with out-dated and useless solutions. After thousands of years, we still reak. I feel embarassed for humanities image. And I am not singling anyone out.
If we loved other people as much as we loved ourselves, the world would indeed be a better place. To think that it is impossible is a flawd attitude, because this is not how change comes about. It is impossible for humanity to work the way it does today while still retaining even the slightest sense of dignity.
I think the basic message the OP was trying to make is that our world needs serious redefining of ourselves, our place in this universe, our home, and what we presume our lives should be like.
-------------------- Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Everyone [Re: Ginseng1]
#7908181 - 01/21/08 01:30 AM (16 years, 12 days ago) |
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I'm gonna keep it short and simple.  It is a logical fallacy because he offered no logical argumentation that this is going to happen, therefore it is an arbitrary conclusion. It lacks of any substantiation. We don't know if this will really be the future, judging the future only through an approximation of the past gives erroneous results. ALSO we were talking about the PRESENT, he asked me if any Christian is trying to impose their will on us and the evidence that sustains so is overwhelming. Try harder next time.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: You have even got me thinking that it is against the Tao to be making any kind of judgment at all.
Well, I may question this, but it really is just a matter of how exactly we refer to judgement. Humans will always analyze their perceptions of their sensory data and formulate a perspective of how reality exists in order to act accordingly. I think its simply a question of how reflective our interpretations of our perceptions are of the nature of reality, which mostly is a question of our own conditioning in the roles we find ourselves in, the amount of obstructions that prevent our awareness from directly perceiving the sensory data our senses are providing us through the interaction of our sensory devices and reality.
Regarding the nature of others, it is more a question of recognizing potential that does exist, and acting in a manner that is based within a reflective perspective of the nature of reality, so that one may effectively produce desired change within reality itself. Human beings, all of reality, exists in a state of constant change. Human beings are very adaptive creatures, the phenomonenon of our mind knows not very many limitations on knowing reality and changing in accordance with it.
I only question a judgement that does not reflect this understanding of reality. If I dismiss another individual as an alcoholic and turn the other way, reality will not agree when the other individual finds a path towards alleviating their addictions. Placing such a judgement takes away the opporutunity one has to producing desired change, since one's mind has produced an ultimate conclusion regarding the nature of a phenomenon that is still evolving. Reality is far too dynamic for ourselves to harm our own interests in doing so, because it makes us less capable of living life in accordance with our own preferences. We also unintentionally create suffering in others, and this evidences suffering of our own.
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You present your arguments pretty well. I have held these opinions in the past, but I did find it interesting to take on the side of the bible as it seemed to make some of my more dormant issues become apparent so I could observe them for what they really are.
Great thought. I really appreciate this sentiment, of truly exploring reality out by becoming an observer of other perspectives on reality. We learn so much from the steps along our path. One thing I have noticed is that everything we do will play a pivotal role in our path further down the road, even the simplest of occurences may have been crucial in altering the course of our life in the most profound way later on. A phrase that I really think has deep meaning regarding this thought is "all i've known, all i've done, all i've felt, was leading to this".
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Now the question is what do I want to will, rather than what do I indirectly choose based on an idea of what I should be doing. For me, these two somehow always intermingle and I feel that my will is always based off a judgment of reality rather than a moment to moment awareness of what is happening. Could you tell me why that is?
I haven't addressed it already, but I do recall some discussion you put forth in this thread regarding what you referred to, I think, as the Christ syndrome, basically the idea that humans can become uncomfortable ourselves in influencing a beneficial change to alleviate the suffering of others. This idea does sound like it relates with the concept of Christ, as well as the Bodhivista.
There is benefit in acting and existing in such a perspective of reality, I would think, but I do question it as being the ultimate path to take in order to alleviate suffering. I do not necessarily think that one cannot comfortably interact with reality in order to produced desired change, and I happen to think that to exist in a comfortable manner is more effective in producing desired change.
Ultimately, you have to look at it from the perspective of suffering itself. Living uncomfortably in producing change describes to me an experience of suffering. I question the effectiveness that one who is suffering will have in alleviating suffering in reality. If someone is suffering, it is because they do not understand the causes and conditions of suffering. If they have not alleviated their own suffering, then they are ineffective in alleviating the suffering in others, probably unknowingly inflicting suffering in others, which is how this discussion began (a good sign, I think ).
The Bible says to not remove the splinter in my eye without first removing the plank in your own. This, I think, is what the idea refers to. I also think this is what is meant when one considers the idea of Christ consciousness itself. The words of Christ are meant as a path towards being Christ. We are talking about a path of becoming more conscious of reality, of ourselves. The only way to produce Christ in others is to produce Christ in ourselves, and we do this by being aware. Suffering results from a lack of awareness, so we must be aware in order to first alleviate our own suffering.
So, regarding your question, I think it is simply practical to enjoy your own life. I have found, in personal experience, that when I focus inward, relax, and grow, I become more effective in effecting positive change in others. I've directly observed this evolution in my own life and in reality around me. Life becomes more enjoyable, and others may begin to enjoy it too, since you naturally make it more enjoyable for them as a result.
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As for Icelander, I find it funny that he doesn't like me being here anymore because I actually think we share a lot of the same opinions most of the time.
Well, if I were you, I wouldn't have posted that here, and sent it to him in a private message. 
Also, give him a , he's not as tough as he likes to make it seem.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
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Quote:
Tchan909 said: Our society is rapidly moving away from Christianity and towards more secular moral ideals as the culture grows increasingly diverse. Evangelicals can throw all the hissy-fits they like, there's not much they can do about it. They're on the way out.
Are you certain? Mike Huckabee is a Republican candidate that has great appeal to a new generation of evangelicals. Do you realize that people take their families to church, that it isn't just old people that are now beginning to die off?
The diversity of culture only means that other cultures have risen, not that Christianity has necessarily receded. Mormons are strong as ever, and the fact that there is a serious Mormon candidate for President, Mitt Romney, probably futhers the Mormon cause, just as Hillary Clinton and Barak Obama are being considered important milestones in the name of diversity and evolution.
The fact is that Christianity's influence isn't simply on the legislative front, it is specifically about what other people believe, and why. The last two times I was in a Christian service was a wedding I was in, and a funeral for my grandmother. Both times, I was visibly upset over the course of events in each church. The funeral service was so insulting to my understanding of reality that I used the experience as fuel to speak out agansit this manifestation of the ideas of Christ, the part that was never to exist in the first place - the Church.
I recognize the positive effects of community, but I know for fact that the Church is not necessary for community to come together. It isn't necessary; in fact, it is counter-productive, as the Church divides, and the fact that it is based upon baseless assumptions of the nature of reality discredits it. The idea of a parasitical meme that preys upon people in the most celebrated and mourned moments of their lives is very dissatisfying. A wedding and a funeral in the Church is being processed by an institution. Neither has to be, neither has to include the Church in the slightest. It is more beautiful of an experience, and more inspiring and healing of an experience, if it is not.
I have nothing agansit a church either; in fact, I love the experience of being in some churches. It is the institution that exists in ideaological terms that gets bored into the head of the individuals that congregrate there. Its like a lawyer bringing his card to you while you're on an ambulance. It is harmful to people in their path of understanding reality.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: i'm sorry that i disgusted and surprised you, icelander. all my debating here will now be based off the bible. the bible is truth. deal with it.
Thank you 666pointer.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
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I think we are suppose to dream up a better tomorrow and try and create that reality rather than simply give in to all our desires and base unconscious animal drives; to leave a good world for the next generation rather than destroy the Earth. I refuse to believe that we are destined to destroy ourselves because we simply "don't have it in us" to make a plan and stick with it rather than numb our minds.
ALL of this is fear based. I refuse to do anything for the future generation, earth, or anything/anybody else, because I "have" to. We're not destined to destroy ourselves, we're not destined to make things better, we're are NOT destined to anything. If you have any prove to sustain that we do, by all means please share with us. And "because I feel so will NOT" work. Others "feel" that they have to burn children, rape women pr throw the atomic bomb for a better future.
Why do I think this is falling on deaf ears?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (01/21/08 04:37 PM)
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WordlessNature
kšatrīya



Registered: 02/04/06
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That's because those who agree with you already agreed before this debate even began. Those who do not agree will not learn through debate. As I'm sure you realize, debate is a showcase for argument, not a means to change. I have yet to meet one single person whose world view has shifted through debate...
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger


Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Then you should meet me.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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I also have met several here and I have changed my mind on many things because of debate here. Especially with Veritas.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
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If your following the Bible make sure you practice the parts about wiping out other cultures and appropriating their goods. The Bible is definitely very empowering in this way.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Sweet
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger


Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: Everyone [Re: LuNaTiX]
#7910636 - 01/21/08 05:10 PM (16 years, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
LuNaTiX said: if everyone cared more about the people around them then them selves, this would be a better world.
Caring doesn't always lead to pleasant ends and sometimes evokes atrocious means. If you believe that burning a heretic at the stake can save the heretic from eternal damnation, then it seems to be the caring thing to burn him.
Caring is only desirable when the intended end is to alleviate or prevent suffering. Caring about anything else is caring too much and probably an intrusion into others dignity.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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True, no one can say with certainty what would make a "better world". Maybe the world is perfect and in perfect balance.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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