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Sophistic Radiance
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MushroomTrip said: Are you not living in a society where you have to respect some moral/social norms, ALL of these being funded upon the Christian moral? Am I missing something?
Might I ask what planet YOU are living on?
Granted, Christians are trying pretty damn hard to force their beliefs into legislation at the moment, but I don't believe they will succeed in the long term. Compare these efforts to the religious violence perpetrated by Christians (among others) in the past and you will see they are tame as pussycats nowadays, and will only become more so. Our society is rapidly moving away from Christianity and towards more secular moral ideals as the culture grows increasingly diverse. Evangelicals can throw all the hissy-fits they like, there's not much they can do about it. They're on the way out.
Edited by Tchan909 (01/20/08 09:09 PM)
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Quote:
Tchan909 said:
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MushroomTrip said: Are you not living in a society where you have to respect some moral/social norms, ALL of these being funded upon the Christian moral? Am I missing something?
Might I ask what planet YOU are living on?
Granted, Christians are trying pretty damn hard to force their beliefs into legislation at the moment, but I don't believe they will succeed in the long term. Compare these efforts to the religious violence perpetrated by Christians (among others) in the past and you will see they are tame as pussycats nowadays, and will only become more so.
ARGUMENT TO THE FUTURE in a logical fallacy. Please stick and discuss the present, to which you yourself admitted that Christians have a word to say. I'll say that it's more than a word.
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fireworks_god
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EternalCowabunga said: i think having media literacy is the key.
The mainstream media deliberately manipulates the release of information in favor of its corporate interests. This is well-documented fact now thanks to the Ron Paul campaign. As someone who has communicated with the New York Times regarding this, it is abundantly clear. Do not trust anything you hear through a news source other than verified Internet sources, as the mainstream media has repeatedly been documented from deliberately lying, to setting up knowingly baseless metrics for determining how they will convey information and which information they will not.
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I really payed attention to each message of each commercial, it seems a lot of commercials are selling mindlessness and then some commercials are almost provoking you into taking some kind of positive action (commercials that end with a black screen and white letters "Think About It." or "Take Responsibility")
Everyone is trying to sell you something. You make a conscious decision what you are going to buy, no matter if it is truth or manipulative pandering. It is no surprise that it would be in the special interests of some to get you to willingly engage in a less than symbiotic relationship that will harm you. Yet, clearly you are getting what you need from doing so, so if you buy it, then it is your responsibility; it is what you want.
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heaven and hell to me = slavery or freedom, hell is the dominator/dominated; those who control and those who allow themselves to be controlled.
Every individual is their own heaven and hell is what you are saying, correct? I agree, as everyone chooses their relationship with reality. Control is a partial truth. What is actually happening is . That which controls is controlled by that which is "controlled". If you put a leash around a man's neck, you only control them if you hold onto the leash. The leash controls you.
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Sophistic Radiance
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Well, sorry not absolutely everything I say in my posts is logically and argumentatively airtight. I was trying to have a discussion, not a debate. Besides, convince me Christians are growing in numbers and strength.
Besides, your attack on my logical fallacy sidestepped my very valid point that modern Christians are pussycats in comparison to their far bloodthirstier forebears.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
Edited by Tchan909 (01/20/08 09:12 PM)
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WordlessNature
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You might be guilty of unnecessary optimism. The acts of religious organizations and individuals currently appear less grievous simply because they are acting now in a capacity which is both available and culturally acceptable. Today's world will not tolerate an inquisition, and that effectively keeps it from being acted out. That does not change the underlying flaws in the doctrine, however, so the possibility of future violence is always a very real one. Until the doctrine is destroyed, the threat remains.
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Doesn't it occur to you people that antagonism now will only buy deeper hostility should such an eventuality occur? I'm not talking about appeasement, I'm talking about being a civil human being. You'd be shocked at how much conflict can be avoided through politeness.
And good luck destroying the doctrines of Christianity. We all know how fun it is to burn books.
Edited by Tchan909 (01/20/08 09:30 PM)
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MushroomTrip
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Is it not sort of infantile to never sacrifice some comfort for the greater good because you just don't want to? Are we reaching our highest potential by staying in our comfort zone, or is nature not telling us that we are going to have to get uncomfortable or it will make us uncomfortable for us..
No. Our Will is our greatest tool, is what made us be, we are making ourselves be each second, by making use of it. For me, it means love and conscience and honesty, it's the force of living life knowing that you're living life and how you're living it. How can this be foolish? How can you measure what's more important for the world, or me, judging with your mind, my own situation? Is it more important to save a starving child in Africa or stay at home eating popcorn in my love's arms? The reasonable answer is that YOU are not in the position to make this kind of appreciation, because only I am what best for ME, and I don't feel ashamed in admitting that I will always make a decision based on what my Will is, no matter how "childish" or "selfish" others might find it. Because you know what? I learned that only when I am true to myself and to my wishes I am able to function in a constructive manner for myself AND others. I also believe (and it had been verified) that if we are true to ourselves and guard our best interests, the best interests of others will be also satisfied.
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fireworks_god
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EternalCowabunga said: You can still love someone who commits suicide Fireworks, you don't have to judge them.
Yes, that's what I said, in response to your assertion of judgement placed upon them.
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The person going through pain can be strong, and they can be a shining light for those around them.
Yes, the possibility may exist. Isn't it your judgement that it does exist? Earlier you said that we can love someone who commits suicide, that we don't have to judge them, but you never clarified whether or not we actually do. In fact, you already explicitly stated that most of humanity does.
The possibility isn't what is being questioned here, it is the nature of the judgement that is placed.
Clearly, if someone commits suicide, then they surely could not have had the strength to be a shining light for others. The potential didn't actually exist if it didn't happen; otherwise, it would have happened. Asserting that potential may exist, as you are doing, doesn't change anything.
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They have this responsibility to themselves and the world around them to alleviate suffering.
How do you know that? People only have responsibility if they take responsibility. The viewpoint that others have responsibility doesn't make it so, no matter how much you feel that they "should".
This statement in quotations is judgement. Reality does not need to correspond with one's judgement. Reality unfolds as it will. You can assume responsibility for yourself, but you cannot assume responsibility for others.
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It's like how we should be happy that we are abundant in wealth and food but the poor should be happy too and not murder us just because we have it better.
This is more judgement. Why should the poor be happy with their situation within reality? Why should they feel the way that you want them to feel? You've demonstrated well enough why you feel that they "should" - your own self-interest, in not being murdered.
This is a clear example of an individual accepting the viewpoint that things would be better if we looked out for others instead of ourselves being based in nothing more than one's own self-interest. On the surface, it appears altruistic enough, but it is nothing more than one individual wishing others acted and behaved according to their own sense of how they "should", in order for they themselves to not suffer. It is an individual's own way of avoiding responsibility for themselves, all the while asserting that others should take responsibility.
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EternalCowabunga
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Clearly, if someone commits suicide, then they surely could not have had the strength to be a shining light for others. The potential didn't actually exist if it didn't happen; otherwise, it would have happened. Asserting that potential may exist, as you are doing, doesn't change anything.
This sounds to me like you are saying that a potential that is not actualized was never a potential at all. Did I get that right?
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How do you know that? People only have responsibility if they take responsibility. The viewpoint that others have responsibility doesn't make it so, no matter how much you feel that they "should".
I don't feel that they should, I'm just speaking my mind. If they have the power, which sometimes they do, they have the response-ability. The ability to respond actively rather than succumb.
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This is more judgement. Why should the poor be happy with their situation within reality? Why should they feel the way that you want them to feel? You've demonstrated well enough why you feel that they "should" - your own self-interest, in not being murdered.
Yes, it is a self-interest. I would rather not poor people becoming angry with their situation and taking it out on the rest of us.
I guess what you are saying is that morality is an illusion and we shouldn't be restricted by it because then we end up controlling or being controlled. This is an honest question, i'm not setting you up here: do you think morals actually create more problems than they solve?
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fireworks_god
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Tchan909 said: Well, sorry not absolutely everything I say in my posts is logically and argumentatively airtight. I was trying to have a discussion, not a debate.
That's the purpose of discussion in this forum, to bring to the surface this fact. I am glad you realize it, and understand that it is necessary and beneficial to have debate.
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Besides, convince me Christians are growing in numbers and strength.
25% of the votes that went to the Republican candidate who received 51% of the vote in the caucus in Nevada were Mormon. Regardless, it is not anyone's duty to convince you that Christians are growing in numbers and strength, as you are the individual who proposed the viewpoint that they are not. If you cannot support your own position, then it is unsupported.
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Besides, your attack on my logical fallacy sidestepped my very valid point that modern Christians are pussycats in comparison to their far bloodthirstier forebears.
Attack? Revealing a logical fallacy for what it is is standard protocol in this forum. It didn't side-step anything, but simply addressed that which it addressed.
I personally don't see how your point is relevant to the discussion at-hand; perhaps that is why it was not addressed?
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MushroomTrip
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Quote:
Tchan909 said: Well, sorry not absolutely everything I say in my posts is logically and argumentatively airtight. I was trying to have a discussion, not a debate. Besides, convince me Christians are growing in numbers and strength.
Besides, your attack on my logical fallacy sidestepped my very valid point that modern Christians are pussycats in comparison to their far bloodthirstier forebears.
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Compare these efforts to the religious violence perpetrated by Christians (among others) in the past and you will see they are tame as pussycats nowadays, and will only become more so.
This is exactly where you did it. Also saying that they are nothing compared to what they used to be or compared to others is a logical fallacy. Our society isn't funded on a Christian moral? Let's take a look at the 10 commandments:
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1. I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
3. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5. Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long.
6. Thou shalt not kill.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8. Thou shalt not steal.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is thy neighbor's.
Well I'll be darn, some of them are even laws.
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fireworks_god
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Quote:
Tchan909 said: And good luck destroying the doctrines of Christianity. We all know how fun it is to burn books.
There is a difference between burning books and reality bringing people to not read them in a certain way.
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Sophistic Radiance
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So are you saying society would have to be permissive of murder, theft, perjury, adultery, and running away from home in order to break free of its Judeo-Christian shackles?
Makes sense to me.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
Edited by Tchan909 (01/20/08 09:41 PM)
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Sophistic Radiance
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
Tchan909 said: And good luck destroying the doctrines of Christianity. We all know how fun it is to burn books.
There is a difference between burning books and reality bringing people to not read them in a certain way.
This is very true. And MY point is that this will be achieved through civility and understanding, not blatant antagonism of other people's beliefs.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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EternalCowabunga
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
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Is it not sort of infantile to never sacrifice some comfort for the greater good because you just don't want to? Are we reaching our highest potential by staying in our comfort zone, or is nature not telling us that we are going to have to get uncomfortable or it will make us uncomfortable for us..
No. Our Will is our greatest tool, is what made us be, we are making ourselves be each second, by making use of it. For me, it means love and conscience and honesty, it's the force of living life knowing that you're living life and how you're living it. How can this be foolish? How can you measure what's more important for the world, or me, judging with your mind, my own situation? Is it more important to save a starving child in Africa or stay at home eating popcorn in my love's arms? The reasonable answer is that YOU are not in the position to make this kind of appreciation, because only I am what best for ME, and I don't feel ashamed in admitting that I will always make a decision based on what my Will is, no matter how "childish" or "selfish" others might find it. Because you know what? I learned that only when I am true to myself and to my wishes I am able to function in a constructive manner for myself AND others. I also believe (and it had been verified) that if we are true to ourselves and guard our best interests, the best interests of others will be also satisfied.
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How can you measure what's more important for the world, or me, judging with your mind, my own situation?
I don't know what your situation is, I'm just debating your points with the information I have. Maybe I am taking my frustrations about myself and the world on what I perceive to be an attitude out of alignment with the Tao and maybe my Will and your Will are different and that's ok. The whole poor/wealthy thing was probably provoked by this video:
   
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MushroomTrip
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Quote:
Tchan909 said: So are you saying society would have to be permissive of murder, theft, perjury, adultery, and running away from home in order to break free of its Judeo-Christian shackles?
Makes sense to me.
Exactly. And I'm not kidding.
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Sophistic Radiance
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Now you've really lost me.
Half of the ten commandments seem like common sense to me. I don't see how it's okay to murder or steal, and people who do it should be punished. To say that is a Christian belief is ludicrous.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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MushroomTrip
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It is also Christian moral, even though people were punished for that before Christianity as well. I honestly and truly believe that of we are to learn and grow, interdictions of any kind must stop.
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EternalCowabunga
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Basically she is saying morality is an illusion, which is fine, although I doubt she'd actually want to live in a world without morals (although this point would be mute according to her logic because it is not how reality is presently unfolding) and fireworks says that any potential that is not actualized in the present is not possible in the first place.
I can understand this from a philosophical view point but I don't really see how this can be defended pragmatically. I suppose the point is that what we have now is both bad and good and we might as well enjoy it without feeling guilty about the bad which the good has created.
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I honestly and truly believe that of we are to learn and grow, interdictions of any kind must stop.
I don't think people would be willing to suffer that much, it seems. All the load seems to fall on a few people at a time. There is still time though... though it seems to be against us.
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fireworks_god
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EternalCowabunga said: This sounds to me like you are saying that a potential that is not actualized was never a potential at all. Did I get that right?
Exactly, unless you are interested in arguing agansit direct evidence regarding the nature of reality. You cannot find potential in an event that has already occured. One speculates that potential may have existed, but the greatest potential is the one that is actualized. It wasn't actually potential if it didn't manifest.
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I don't feel that they should, I'm just speaking my mind.
Yes, you are speaking your mind, which feels that they should. This is evidenced, as you have already stated as much. The fact that you are speaking your mind doesn't mean that speaking your mind doesn't mean you don't mean what you meant.
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If they have the power, which sometimes they do, they have the response-ability. The ability to respond actively rather than succumb.
Well then, obviously if they have the ability to alleviate suffering without commiting suicide, then they don't commit suicide, eh? I don't understand how you have come to the perspective to formulate the idea that sometimes "they" have personal power. Firstly, you're engaging in collectivism here, which does not represent the nature of reality, and, secondly, you are no authority on the internal state of another speculative identity.
Someone facing the decision of suicide is doing it because they see no other way, subsequently implying that they have no other way. If there was a way in which they would choose to continue to live, life would naturally follow that course, as life is the process of living.
This refers back to my response to your first quotation in this reply.
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Yes, it is a self-interest. I would rather not poor people becoming angry with their situation and taking it out on the rest of us.
Exactly. This is the same as "frowning upon" suicide because it harms most people. It doesn't accomplish anything to alleviate the source of the potential that would result in such an outcome. It is judgement. Judgement is the condemnation of concluding reality exists in a certain way. This is one step towards ensuring that reality does exist that way, but is mostly the creation of suffering, as one no longer lives in accordance with the nature of reality.
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I guess what you are saying is that morality is an illusion and we shouldn't be restricted by it because then we end up controlling or being controlled. This is an honest question, i'm not setting you up here: do you think morals actually create more problems than they solve?
Well, morality is an illusion, in that it is an abstract concept that human beings manifest. The real question is our motivations for holding the perspective that we find ourselves holding, whether or not they are based in realization in the nature of reality, and the effects that our perspective have in our actions, which propagate the creation of reality.
You've realized that feeling that people shouldn't commit suicide is only based in one's self-interest in not experiencing suffering, and it is a great first step towards alleviation of suffering itself, for yourself and others. Realizing that the reason you want poor people to not murder others is because you do not wish to be murdered and have that which you identify with as your life threatened is a good first step towards preventing it from happening. 
Since the Bible was mentioned earlier, consider now "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". In this phrase, exists both the sentiments you have expressed earlier regarding helping others, as well as Icelander's viewpoint that one only concern themselves with theirselves, living their life as they wish to live it. Icelander and Eternal_cowabunga are mutally compatible, how precious.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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