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Bejeezis
Mushaboom


Registered: 01/18/08
Posts: 184
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
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Dangerous CO2 Levels During Incubation?
#7899018 - 01/18/08 08:19 PM (16 years, 14 days ago) |
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Ello Fellaz!
Been combing the forums and haven't found a post that accurately addressed my concerns. Lots of posts explaining the benefits and risks of gas exchange during incubation but I'm having trouble finding a thread on the danger of no gas exchange.
Here's the deal, i did the basic PF Tek style jar/brown rice/inoculation procedure but didn't add enough water (me thinks) because the cakes shrank in the autoclave. This resulted in a large portion of my verm casing layer sliding down the sides. I inoculated them regardless and they have been in incubation for a week or so with most of them at around 10% colonization so far. No contams so far. I have the lids screwed on very tight for fear of contamination now that my verm layer isn't really there to do it's job.
My question is this:
Can i leave the lids on tight and keep gas exchange absent during incubation? I know that it's not the best environment but is it destined for disaster if i leave it that way? They are colonizing slower than usual already and i wonder if they will eventually stop and then die due to the CO2 build up before they can fully colonize the 1/2 pint jars.
Sorry if there is a similar post on the boards and i am just too blind to find it! And thanks in advance for any advice you guys can throw at me!
-------------------- ___________________________________________________________ Whether you're here to learn or teach the art of mycology, do so with an open mind. My posts are 100% fictional... I'm just makin it all up!
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FooMan




Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 8,957
Loc: Earth
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Re: Dangerous CO2 Levels During Incubation? [Re: Bejeezis]
#7899230 - 01/18/08 09:09 PM (16 years, 14 days ago) |
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Too much CO2 will slow and/or stop growth. Get some postal Tyvek, cut it into squares(or circles) big enough to cover the jars, wipe the squares down lightly with alcohol and place them over your jars using a rubber band to hold them in place. Then loosen your lids.
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Quick WBS Prep
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Bejeezis
Mushaboom


Registered: 01/18/08
Posts: 184
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
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Re: Dangerous CO2 Levels During Incubation? [Re: FooMan]
#7899296 - 01/18/08 09:23 PM (16 years, 14 days ago) |
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Never thought of that, very cool.
Suppose I'll wana whipe the outside of the jars too and procede with the same level of cleanliness required during the origional inoculation.
Pain in the arse but it's better than jars full of dead fuzz, eh?
Thanks man
-------------------- ___________________________________________________________ Whether you're here to learn or teach the art of mycology, do so with an open mind. My posts are 100% fictional... I'm just makin it all up!
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FooMan




Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 8,957
Loc: Earth
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Re: Dangerous CO2 Levels During Incubation? [Re: Bejeezis]
#7899502 - 01/18/08 10:11 PM (16 years, 14 days ago) |
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No problem.
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Quick WBS Prep
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure



Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 11 months, 3 days
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Re: Dangerous CO2 Levels During Incubation? [Re: FooMan]
#7899540 - 01/18/08 10:21 PM (16 years, 14 days ago) |
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How did you inoculate? They should be able to get gas exchange through the inoculation holes. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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Bejeezis
Mushaboom


Registered: 01/18/08
Posts: 184
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
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Re: Dangerous CO2 Levels During Incubation? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#7899645 - 01/18/08 10:53 PM (16 years, 14 days ago) |
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Ah, I missed an important piece of information!!
I use a syringe and I only insert the needle into the foil once, simply shooting half a ml on one side of the jar and then moving the tip of the needle to the other side and squirting the other half ml there. I don't remove any layers of foil, I just stab through em both. I also PC the lids, wipe the inside surface with alcohol, and put them on the jars as well. I usually have an assistant beside me who wipes the lids while I inoculate and then they put the lids on immediately after I pull the syringe out. Usually I leave the lids slightly loosened and this works fine but this time I screwed em on tight for fear of contams.
I know some PF Tek versions tell ya to use the outer ring and some say forget the lid completely. I used the whole damn thing cuz I wasn't gonna risk contams entering that breech in the foil with substrate naked to the air. It worked perfectly on all of my jars, but now CO2 can't escape.
I was thinking... I might be able to wait until the tops of the cakes are mostly colonized and then loosen the lids. But this would still leave a little substrate exposed on the sides and for all I know the tops will never make it to that point before the CO2 stops growth completely anyway.
I am still pretty new at this and have zero experience with contams in the handful of times I've grown so I'm not really sure if I'm being too careful or not. I'm not the kind of guy who sprays bleach on the walls or uses an expensive flowhood as I have yet to have problems with lazier methods. Still, I am 99% confident that opening jars with exposed substrate is askin for failure.
Even the earlier suggestion with the tyvek leaves me nervous that there will be contams floating in the space between the tyvek and jar when I open the lid. But it sounds like my best option...
-------------------- ___________________________________________________________ Whether you're here to learn or teach the art of mycology, do so with an open mind. My posts are 100% fictional... I'm just makin it all up!
Edited by Bejeezis (01/18/08 11:04 PM)
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FooMan




Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 8,957
Loc: Earth
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Re: Dangerous CO2 Levels During Incubation? [Re: Bejeezis]
#7899775 - 01/18/08 11:21 PM (16 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bejeezis said: I use a syringe and I only insert the needle into the foil once, simply shooting half a ml on one side of the jar and then moving the tip of the needle to the other side and squirting the other half ml there. I don't remove any layers of foil, I just stab through em both. I also PC the lids, wipe the inside surface with alcohol, and put them on the jars as well. I usually have an assistant beside me who wipes the lids while I inoculate and then they put the lids on immediately after I pull the syringe out. Usually I leave the lids slightly loosened and this works fine but this time I screwed em on tight for fear of contams.

What do you mean you "also PC the lids". Do you put the lids on after you PC? If so, your lid should have 4 taped inoculation holes (which you inject through) and be on the jars during PC'ing with foil over them, not put on afterwards.
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Quick WBS Prep
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Bejeezis
Mushaboom


Registered: 01/18/08
Posts: 184
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
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Re: Dangerous CO2 Levels During Incubation? [Re: FooMan]
#7900632 - 01/19/08 07:09 AM (16 years, 13 days ago) |
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Ya, i was PCing the lids in the pressure cooker with my jars, each jar having 2 layers of foil on them. The lids stay face down while being PC'd. I do this because I have had problems with the foil snaggin the lids when I pulled them off and I figured that even the brief disturbance to the foil may be enough to introduce fresh/contam'd air. I have had no problems inoculating and then immediately placing the PC'd lids over the inoculation holes in the foil so far.
I'm thinking of completely changing my methods now tho. I've heard of people covering the tops of the jars with a single sheet of tyvek and PCing the jars and tyvek together, then inoculating through the tyvek, covering the inoculation hole with tape/band-aid/glue. Sounds much easier and if I would have done this in the first place there would be no need for my angst as the tyvek would provide gas exchange AND the protection i need.
I'm thinkin... since I'm gonna have tyvek laying around after my attempt to introduce gas exchange to my colonizing jars, i might as well try the new method for the next batch.
-------------------- ___________________________________________________________ Whether you're here to learn or teach the art of mycology, do so with an open mind. My posts are 100% fictional... I'm just makin it all up!
Edited by Bejeezis (01/19/08 07:16 AM)
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure



Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 11 months, 3 days
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Re: Dangerous CO2 Levels During Incubation? [Re: Bejeezis]
#7900732 - 01/19/08 08:18 AM (16 years, 13 days ago) |
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Just use the basic pf tek without changes the first time. Here, watch this video. The link to part one is below. Watch all four parts. RR <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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Bejeezis
Mushaboom


Registered: 01/18/08
Posts: 184
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
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Re: Dangerous CO2 Levels During Incubation? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#7901377 - 01/19/08 12:05 PM (16 years, 13 days ago) |
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Wow! Great videos!
I wish I would have seen those long ago!
I always thought that cakes were much more fragile than the vids make them out to be. I thought you had to be carefull to never touch them even with clean hands and drowning them in water was out of the question for me. I always figured that cakes could get water logged and then harbor molds or begin to rot. But it seems more water is better.
I have decided to loosen the tops of my jars since most have completely stopped colonizing... they haven't progresses at all in 3 days. Worst case scenario is that I lose a dozen jars and have to start over I guess. But now that I've seen the vids, the process is much clearer to me and I don't think I'll have nearly as many questions... but if I do, this is the first place I'll go!
I am more than impressed with this forum! I have never seen such prompt, helpful and detailed responses on any other forum (mushroom related or not). Simply astounding!
Thanks so much for your help fellaz!
-------------------- ___________________________________________________________ Whether you're here to learn or teach the art of mycology, do so with an open mind. My posts are 100% fictional... I'm just makin it all up!
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RogerRabbit
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Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 11 months, 3 days
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Re: Dangerous CO2 Levels During Incubation? [Re: Bejeezis]
#7901789 - 01/19/08 01:38 PM (16 years, 13 days ago) |
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If you used the dry vermiculite filter per the pf tek, you can loosen the lids with no problem. Don't move the jars around or turn them upside down or anything silly like that because it can cause the verm filter to shift, allowing contaminants to reach the rice flour below. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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