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InvisibleDiploidM
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Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Teacher Arrested For Making Meth In Classroom [CA] [Re: johnm214]
    #7717704 - 12/04/07 11:55 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

it is neither law nor regulation

The Federal Law that empowers the DEA is the Controlled Substances Act. Under that law, and via the Federal Register, they have Listed Red and White Phosphorus.

That means that if you possess it without permission, they can arrest you.

If you still think you can easily buy red phosphorus, how about a link with a price that doesn't require DEA registration to buy? I'll bet you can't find one.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Teacher Arrested For Making Meth In Classroom [CA] [Re: Diploid]
    #7717751 - 12/05/07 12:10 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

All the major suppliers of chemicals have no sales to the general public anyways, but I never said it was easy to buy regardless. Buying water through a chemical supply house as an individual is almost impossible.


But you made the affirmative claim that there was a law prohibiting possesion, and thus have the burden of demonstrating it.

ANd the federal register is not the means by which the promulgate their regulations, its via the code of federal regulations, which only has force to the extent authorized by the law. I don't believe there's anything in the CFR regulating individual possesion of those drugs either.

Here is the law generally prohibiting simple possesion of scehduled and listed chemicals in certain circumstances:

21USCĀ§ 844. Penalties for simple possession
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/21/844.html#a

I can't find anything in there, maybe you can.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Teacher Arrested For Making Meth In Classroom [CA] [Re: johnm214]
    #7717801 - 12/05/07 12:26 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

ANd the federal register is not the means by which the promulgate their regulations, its via the code of federal regulations
I don't believe there's anything in the CFR regulating individual possesion of those drugs either.


Code of Federal Regulations Section 1310.02 says:

The Administrator may add or delete a substance as a listed chemical by publishing a final rule in the Federal Register. The following chemicals have been specifically designated by the Administrator of the Drug Enforcement Administration

After that, there is a list which includes Red and White Phosphorus.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Teacher Arrested For Making Meth In Classroom [CA] [Re: Diploid]
    #7718079 - 12/05/07 02:06 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

The federal register is just a quazi journal whereby the governent affects notice of certain acts.

I really don't know what to tell you. I agree that phosphorus is listed and that the rule was published via the Register.

But possesion of list I chemicals does not require registration, is not illegal under federal law, and I can't find anything to the contrary.

Feel free to show contrary authority


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Teacher Arrested For Making Meth In Classroom [CA] [Re: johnm214]
    #7718102 - 12/05/07 02:14 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

> But possesion of list I chemicals does not require registration, is not illegal under federal law

That is true.

Ephedrine and pseudoephedrine, along with many other common things are list I chemicals.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Teacher Arrested For Making Meth In Classroom [CA] [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #7718176 - 12/05/07 02:43 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Ephedrine and pseudoephedrine, along with many other common things are list I chemicals.

That's right. And because individual possession of two boxes of (pseudo)ephedrine, which I think is the law in most (all?) states, isn't enough to make much if any usable methamphetamine, such small amounts are exempt from DEA registration regulations.

But I guess you guys just aren't reading my posts. Here again is the relevant part of the law as relates specifically to Red and White Phosphorus:

Given the small quantities of these chemicals necessary for the
production of methamphetamine, no threshold is being established for
domestic and international transactions. As such, all transactions
(regardless of size) shall be considered regulated transactions


Read the part that says: "REGARDLESS OF SIZE" over and over again. It will eventually sink in. :tongue:

That means the DEA can lock you up for possessing a single molecule without permission. The only exemption is when the Red or White Phosphorus is part of something else manufactured by someone with DEA registration. Match strikers, for example, contain Red Phosphorus.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Teacher Arrested For Making Meth In Classroom [CA] [Re: Diploid]
    #7718271 - 12/05/07 03:25 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Diploid, I agree there is no presumed transaction threshold unless specified.

That quote (citation please) does not establish you must be registered to purchase a list I chemical or that you are prohibited from possesing it. The law covers people selling the products, they must take certain steps such as verifying identity and recording the transaction.

The actual purchaser has no CSA-related duty to do anything, and his purchase is not illegal unless some fraud or intent is demonstrated. Aside from a non-authoritative snippet from the fed. reg. there has been no citation to the contrary. I've posted the law regarding possesion of scheduled and listed substances, and though the Act is quite a bit larger than that, and there are other requirments, nothing has been found to challenge my understanding.


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: Teacher Arrested For Making Meth In Classroom [CA] [Re: PoisonedV]
    #7718553 - 12/05/07 08:07 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

PoisonedV said:
As a chemist, I can vouch for this guy being a dickweed. More bad rep for chemistry. Say bye-bye to home experimenters.




fo real.... if you're gonna get arrested for making drugs at school at least make some E, damnit.. something WORTH getting popped for! hehe


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Offlinesunspun
Stranger
Registered: 01/18/08
Posts: 1
Last seen: 14 years, 10 days
Re: Teacher Arrested For Making Meth In Classroom [CA] [Re: BrAiN]
    #7898551 - 01/18/08 08:13 PM (14 years, 10 days ago)

So johnm214 and diploid, which is it? Can you or can you not still buy white (or red, but preferably white) phosphorus anywhere in the US these days, in any amount at all, without a license or permit or whatever they might require?
It sounds like the answer may be yes, in small quantities, as long as the seller doesn't suspect you want to use it for something illegal?

Anyone know of anywhere it can be bought online currently? I'm in Oklahoma, if that makes a difference...

Thanks~
cool forum u have here, btw!

sunspun


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Teacher Arrested For Making Meth In Classroom [CA] [Re: sunspun]
    #7898605 - 01/18/08 08:26 PM (14 years, 10 days ago)

Don't take my word for it. Go look it up for yourself at dea.gov, though I've already quoted and linked the relevant laws.

Better still, order a kilogram of red from China online (if you can find it, which you probably can't because it's illegal to possess without a DEA permit) then sit back and see how long it takes the law to break down your front door.

Be sure to let us know how it went down when you get out. :tongue:

The only way you can get red is by way of it being an intrinsic part of a manufactured product, like matchbooks, which are manufactured by companies with DEA permits.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Teacher Arrested For Making Meth In Classroom [CA] [Re: johnm214]
    #7898639 - 01/18/08 08:34 PM (14 years, 10 days ago)

That quote (citation please) does not establish you must be registered to purchase a list I chemical

Not all list 1 chemicals are the same.

You can buy some list 1 chemicals like (pseudo)ephedrine in small amount (two boxes at most pharmacies) without registration. Other list 1 chemicals like red you DO have to be registered for.

I've already linked and quoted citations several times. Read back through the thread.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
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