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InvisiblefahtsterM
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Faht makes a bulk tub * 22
    #7893964 - 01/17/08 05:02 PM (16 years, 15 days ago)

hey,
So I said I would post this over here and so I shall. :wink:

Quote:

ok, so this is kinda in conjunction with my late casing  thread. from the looks of it, it's about split between the amount of peeps that are having success with it and those that are about so-so with the results. I think the difficulty might lie with matted Mycelium ; the same reason that straight grains don't fruit as well as rez effect or bulk subs or straight grains that don't have a casing  layer. Thats why if you are fruiting  straight grains and waiting for pins to do a late casing , you may be waiting a long time and then by the time you see a pin, the sub is low on water etc. So i'll just show you how I make the tubs step by step so you can see what I'm talking about. I'll talk more about the "matted mycelium" thing as I go.

heres the late casing  thread: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/7708447/an/0/page/0

So I want to say the strain  I'm using in this thread is PE and it is a clone . It's the same PE clone  I've always had and is from over a year ago. it was dried out in a faht jar until about a month ago. The clone  was a very lucky blind myc pull from a PE cake that hadn't even fruited yet, but I got a very prolific and potent fruiter. It was obtained with this tek: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/6590986/an/0/page/0

The spawn  is rye  and was prepared with this method: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/7718009/an/0/page/0
**actually, all the jars you see in that link are the same thirty jars used in this thread**

here we go:

Mixing the Substrate


I use two tubs. One larger than the other. I mix in the small one and the larger one is to catch any spillage and to keep things clean, but you can use whatever. I find it easier to hydrate the substrate  in a smaller tub too.



Now I use a bowl that is 3.5 L to measure out the HPoo  and Straw...



Two of those go into the tub (so about 7 L of Hpoo)...



Then about 3/4 of that of straw  (only once)..



Then I just eye out about three cups or so of verm . I used course here but you can use whatever grade... it's mainly for water retention. Here it is all together before mixing..



mixed before water added...



Now I add about a half gallon of water to that amount of dry substrate . I'm pasteurizing this in oven bags (in this case) so I want to have the mix slightly more saturated than field capacity  due to some evaporation during the Pasteurization  time..



Now I pour the water into the mixture and use my fist to press down on the mix. This forces the water into the dry substrate...



Now I break the pressed down substrate  up and repeat the pressing down with the fist until the water is evenly distributed. Here's what it looks like after multiple presses..




*EDIT 1/10/14* Now, as for what follows, I used this technique for pasteurizing A LOT of substrate all at once, but I probably wouldn't use this method nowadays.  I am going to leave the operation up so that if you feel like playing around a bit with your procedures, you can see how I did it.  BUT, like I said, I wouldn't do it this way today.  The reason I wouldn't do it this way is because some of the material in the middle of the bags probably didn't get thoroughly pasteurized.  That is why I had to poke holes in the bags while they cooled so that fresh air was available to the material so the parts that didn't get thoroughly pasteurized wasn't given a chance to grow bacteria before I spawned to it.  I would still prepare the material like above^^^^, but I would pasteurize in smaller amounts with less times to make sure all the material was pasteurized properly.  RR does this in jars in his videos... or just use smaller amounts in oven bags like below... like maybe 8 bag loads instead of one.  Frank Horrigan also breaks it down here: A list of how Frank gets shit done.  I was going to link straight to his technique, but he's got a lot of good stuff to check out, so you have to do a little digging. :smile:



I usually use 6 mil polybags but not everyone has them so I'm doing this with my favorite things in the world, oven bags... turkey size...



Now this is important... I count how many handfuls it takes to put this amount into the oven bag.. In this case, it takes about 10 of these handfuls for the amount of substrate  we just made.. I'll tell you why we count in a bit..



Here we are half done...



Now repeat the same process with the same amount of substrate  and put it in the same oven bag with the first substrate  you made...




Now remember that it took about 20 handfuls to substrate  to make that amount... this is one bins worth of substrate  in a 54 qt (around that size) bin at a depth of about 4.5 inches.

Like I said, I'm using oven bags, but since they are going to be in 160 F. water for about 4.5 hours, they get weak so we're going to double bag them.



I like the steam method of pasteurizing because it's waaaay less messy and you don't leach any nutes out of the substrate.

I put this in cold water (so it all heats up evenly) with a large bowl of water on top of the bags of substrate  to keep it submerged. Now make sure you don't tie the bags off.. if you do this, steam will build up and make your bags really hard to keep under the water as they will expand.. just let the bag openings hang over the side of the pot... make sure they aren't going to melt or start on fire though..



heres two tubs worth going as the same time.. Like I said, I keep them at about 160 F. for 4.5 hours.. they are about as big as a turkey so they need to cook as long as a turkey...



after 4.5 hours I remove the inner bag holding the substrate  from the PC  and outer bag...



Then I take a clean knife and poke small holes all over the bag about every two inches to let the substrate  breathe while it cools... if you don't do this, you'll probably end up with bacteria infestation.. I've had it happen.



Then I just lay them on a cookie sheet to cool with the bag openings loosely folded over like so for about four to six hours.. I mix the bag up every-once-in-awhile so that the center doesn't stay too warm..



Ok, now lets make the tub...

Ok, so like I said, I use 54 qt tubs with about 6 US quarter sized holes in the long sides and about 2-4 of the same sized holes in the short sides. These are covered with micropore tape.  Obviously clean it...



Now I put a garbage bag in the bottom of the bin as to prevent under Pinning . But first I clean the bag.. if you are going to clean everything else, you should definitely clean what the substrate  is going to be touching.. I do this by hanging the bag and with a alcohol doused paper towel in each hand, sandwich the bag on each side and streak down the bag until the entire bag has been wiped down..



here it is in the bottom of the tub..

.

Quote:



EDIT: Nov. 2016

THE METHOD OF "LAYMIX" As the name suggests, this is using both mixing and layering of the substrate and spawn methods while creating the substrate block--see below for directions and rough graph

Edit: the following is how I set up the tubs that I made and they obviously worked for me, but a lot of people say that mixing of the substrate is better for faster colonization... But I feel that you lose the ability to manipulate the fruiting surface with evenness in pinning and on a lesser note, pin sets.  Mixing the majority of the tub, but leaving two quarts worth of spawn And 3/4 inches of bulk material--preferably, coir (CVG) aside for making the fruiting surface (just like described below in the original directions).  So like this:

                Top
(3/4        inches    of  Just  CVG)
( two quarts worth of rye spawn )
(        Mixed      bulk                    )
(          sub        and        4          )
(          Quarts        of                  )
(____________spawn_______ )
            Bottom

I feel this better represents where I would have ended up with my substrate block design had I had the opportunity.  You get the fastness of mixed substrate colonization without losing the control of fruiting surface manipulation by concentrating high nutrients near the surface in an even layer, thereby bypassing any unevenness left at said surface by simply mixing the entire tub and fruiting it like that.  I believe that by placing an even layer of bulk sub over the spawn layer helps promote vertical myc through the bulk substrate layer much like a built-in casing layer.  This is not a frosting layer; it's actually the exact opposite of a frosting layer as the exposed grain layer is completely cover by the top substrate layer.


That concludes the directions for the "Laymix" method.  There are examples of people using this method, although they may be tweaked a lil to fit there growing parameters, the basic idea stems from laymixing.  Here is an awesome thread of trials done by Eatualive using the laymix method.. he calls it "substrate as casing", but it's the same method:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22445600.

It's a really great thread with awesome fruiting pics, so check it out!

Frank Horrigan did a tub using the laymix method as I pestered him enough :lol:  I believe he fruited the tub too early but he still did a great job and  a really heavy pin set was achieved and it pinned much earlier than other tubs using just mixing, but the weight on the first flush was slightly lacking, but like I said, I believe that was due to too early of fruiting conditions.. anyway that's here:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19789008#19789008

You can see the laymixed tub is the first one pictured.  I also go on to explain more of my rationale behind laymixing here:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19742012#19742012





Now back to the original post
:

Now comes why we counted the amount of handfuls of substrate  in the oven bag... we are going to layer the bin.. this is the first time layering for me; thats why I didn't post this right away, I wanted to make sure it worked first.. usually I mix the bottom 2/3 of the bins' substrate  and spawn  but inspired by visions laundry basket , I thought layering would work... not to mention it's way easier to just lay out a layer of bulk sub then a layer of spawn  than mix the whole shibang. I used five qts of rye  per tub. I'm using three qts for the "body" of the tub and two qts for the fruiting  surface.. so I need five layers of bulk sub total.. it looks something like this:

top layer of bulk sub (no spawn)
two qts of spawn
bulk sub
one qt spawn
bulk sub
one qt spawn
bulk sub
one qt spawn
bottom layer of bulk sub

The body of the substrate  isn't as important as the top spawn  layer as thats mainly what the fruits are going to pull from..

heres the bottom layer of bulk sub put in the tub with the garbage bag. it takes about four handfuls worth of spawn  per layer.. hence why we counted the amount of substrate





one qts worth of rye  on top of that..



Now repeat that layering until you get to the last two qts of grain..



see how much fuller that layer is with it being two qts worth? thats what the fruits are going to pull from for high nutes.

Now cover this with the last of the bulk substrate  and trim the extra bag off.. Highflyer taught us long ago about using bulk substrate  as a pseudo casing.. This will force verticle growth from the grain rather than lateral growth which keeps the Mycelium  rhizomophic and helps keep the myc from becoming too dense at knotting. But the high nute content of the substrate  isn't burried too deeply; they do much better when the high nute grains are directly under the bulk sub in a consistent layer. This is another reason that I think the late casing  works so well in this case; the myc isn't as dense as if there were grain directly in the top layer.

heres the tub after the top bulk layer and bag is trimmed away..



Now for the lid.. heres my second favorite thing in the world.. press and seal..



I just stretch it over half of the bin the long ways on one side like so..



then stretch another piece that slightly overlaps the over side...



Then I put a piece of painters tape over where the two pieces overlap to seal the lid...



Then I poke tiny holes about every two inches or so...



The bin is done. I put it in a room much like this one with a fan on 24/7 about 1.5 feet above the bins and a couple of floro lights that are on about 12 hours a day.. I do this right away I don't use any kind of incubator  or put additional coverage on the top of the substrate.. I'm looking for knotting just about the time that the entire bin is colonized... the sooner the better.. give that fucker light right away.  heres the room they go in..



heres just a side shot of six bins...



Now I even air these out (very briefly.. just enough to relieve some of the CO2 build up) about every other day while they are colonizing..

**This is not the standard by any means for a colonizing substrate.  If you don't have experience or know what you're doing (know how your strain variety will react to this), you can end up with a tub that pins too early.  I use micro pore tape which is much more restrictive of air than loose poly fil... My bins were getting large build ups of CO2 which is good for mycelium growth, but also for contamination growth as well... Relieving the build up by doing a single quick fanning every other day reduced the contams I was getting considerably.  However, it is my recommendation that if you are just starting out, that you start with more traditional techniques and restrict FAE to the time that you introduce the tubs to fruiting conditions.  If you are having troubles with contamination and/or prolonged pinning due to the strain variety that you are using, etc., THEN perhaps play with the idea of fanning during colonization.**

I actually go a step further and put a number on the bins on one side of the Press and seal (PNS) and arrange all the bins so that the numbers are on the same side of the PNS as they sit... you can see it in this pic..



every other day I put the top two bins in front on the bottom.. the back two bins on top and the front bins in the back and switch them so that the numbers are on the opposite side so that all the bins get the same type of air flow.

heres the bins at 2 days after being made.. you can see the myc coming up thru the top layer of bulk substrate...



day 4..



day 5.. picking up speed..



day 10...



The heat from the growing myc made a lot of condensation in my bins, but thats mainly because my pad is cooler than most i'm sure... I'm cold blooded. lol. about every four days I had a lot of pooling on the bins...



So I just padded it dry with a paper towel. heres the bins at casing  (at least three of them)...



The bins with the most pins at casing  (late-casing) did the best the first flush... heres the first pins that I saw...



heres a tub cased very thinly; you can see the myc underneath still...



like I said, the ones that I waited for the most pins at first did the best the first flush... heres the tub with the most pins at casing...

 

Now PE is a volatile strain.. it's very picky.. other strains love this method.. And I used rye  because it's sooooo freakin easy to prepare; so I'll take the bit of loss in production, but I guarantee if you use WBS  for those top two qts of grain, you'll get even better results.. no doubt in my mind. 

This was my response to a question basically asking me to explain my thoughts on the "dense" myc. issue I stated very early in this thread...

Quote:

This PE substrain  is an exception to the dense myc.. It takes really long to knot, giving the myc plenty of time to colonize thicker, but see how the top still has lots of crevises? I thinks that due the myc growing upwards and not linear which would fill in those gaps more. On the other strains that I did this with, SA and HB, they pinned quicker which left the top bulk sub layer less dense and more pins showed up. you know what I'm saying? Those other strains pretty much started Pinning  when the tub was just being fully colonized.. these PE bins were colonized completely for a few days before any knots showed up. I should have just waited longer to cased on those last three bins.. BUT the bins that didn't do as well the first flush  are Pinning  like crazy for this second flush.. I'll post more pics of the next flush  within the next few days. And that bin that did the best on the first flush  has the least amount of pins on it this flush . I mean it makes sense.. all the bins have the same amount of bulk substrate  and the same amount of spawn  with the exact same isolate.. so they should in the end, as long as they all make it through the same amount of flushes, do roughly the same amount of fruits, whether they do it this first flush  or in the next two or so.




if you would like to see how the rest of those six bins did, go to this link...

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/7833695/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1

heres a shot of how well the layering is working.. colonized through and through..



I just put these bins through to the second flush and tossed em.. I could have gotten more and I would suggest that you do also, but for me, I'd rather have all that substrate out of my pad as soon as possible.. :thumbup:  two flushes for six bins gave me a smidge over 3 dry elbows. :smile: 

heres the end of the second flush in baskets awaiting the dryer (box fan lol)



heres the entire grow minus about 114 grams that were given away at a party last weekend..



other bins done this exact same way...



these bins were done this same way, BUT only one qt of rye was used in the top layer instead of the two... I figured out two works waaaay better. :smile:

     

just remember that these are all clones... multispore  will probably vary.






I hope you've enjoyed this thread!  now, I am in no way saying that this is the be all way of doing it.. theres hundreds of ways and this is just one of them.. use all of it, some of it, or none of it.. s'up to you, but at any rate... there it is. :smile:

fahtster


Edited by fahtster (12/10/16 06:15 PM)


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InvisibleFooMan
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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: fahtster] * 1
    #7893993 - 01/17/08 05:11 PM (16 years, 15 days ago)

:thumbup:

Nice work bro!


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: FooMan] * 1
    #7894005 - 01/17/08 05:14 PM (16 years, 15 days ago)

w00t


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: FooMan] * 1
    #7894022 - 01/17/08 05:20 PM (16 years, 15 days ago)

BRAVO what a show !!!! :headbanger:


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: Crasher] * 1
    #7894065 - 01/17/08 05:31 PM (16 years, 15 days ago)

That is friggin awesome! That is what I am shooting for. Thanks for the write up.


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Offlinedonpatch
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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: Samurai_Jim] * 1
    #7894150 - 01/17/08 05:57 PM (16 years, 15 days ago)

i saw this first over at the topia... thanks for sharing fahtster


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: donpatch] * 1
    #7894216 - 01/17/08 06:09 PM (16 years, 15 days ago)

Great write up! I'm curious to know more about this "matted mycelium". I have some bags that are waiting to pin (9 days now) and the mycelium is looking pretty matted. It had aerial myc. just a few days ago. Thanks for sharing your great work!


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: lemonjello] * 1
    #7896083 - 01/18/08 05:08 AM (16 years, 14 days ago)

"114grams given away" geezz how many ppl were trippin lol

freekin awsome harvest faht:borat:
hopefully ill get my results up to this


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: flushme] * 1
    #7896439 - 01/18/08 08:22 AM (16 years, 14 days ago)

damnnnnnn 114g given away at a party?
niiiiiiiiiiiiice
i wish i could give out 32 eighths lol

:rockon:


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Invisiblelegallyhomeless
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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: galadar] * 1
    #7897048 - 01/18/08 11:22 AM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Its nice to see someone mention that you need to poke holes in the bags after pasteurizing. The bags stay hot inside FOREVER unless you do this. Nice job :thumbup:


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: legallyhomeless] * 1
    #7897092 - 01/18/08 11:40 AM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

legallyhomeless said:
Its nice to see someone mention that you need to poke holes in the bags after pasteurizing. The bags stay hot inside FOREVER unless you do this. Nice job :thumbup:



i dump pastuerized jars of casing and sub into a metal pot and mix around and what not. let it cool a bit in the pot. all uncovered and whatnot.


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OfflineHawaiian
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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: galadar] * 1
    #7897377 - 01/18/08 01:14 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Do you think the results would be about the same on a smaller scale in say a 12x12 tupperware container using broken up PFtek cakes instead of the rye?


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: Hawaiian] * 1
    #7897627 - 01/18/08 02:24 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

thanks everyone! :smile:  lol yeah, it was a huge party...peeps love it when I show up lol 

Hawaiian- yeah, I'm sure it would be something similar to otto's buckets... probably get a really nice pin set too... pf cakes would work great I'm guessin. :thumbup:

fahtster


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: fahtster] * 1
    #7897674 - 01/18/08 02:39 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Nice writeup and pictures. Thanks for posting.
RR


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: RogerRabbit] * 1
    #7897809 - 01/18/08 03:21 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

QUESTION:

After the tub is fully colonized, how long do you expose them to light so they start pinning?

Then after you case them do you still expose them to light or keep them dark until the myc breaks through the casing????

Nice grow by the way, :thumbup: i have some similar projects on the way.

Take care


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: RogerRabbit] * 1
    #7899510 - 01/18/08 10:13 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Nice writeup and pictures. Thanks for posting.
RR


Yes sir, that would be getting the most out of your work and giving a nice tutorial to all of us. Thank you.


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: gringoman] * 1
    #7899682 - 01/18/08 11:02 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

I keep them exposed to light roughly 8-12 hours a day from the day they are made til the day they are tossed.  The idea with that is that while they colonize the bulk sub, pinning is being induced.. so right about the time they juuuuust about fully colonized the substrate they start pinning and matting is limited.  The sooner they pin the better. :smile: 

Thanks.

faht


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: fahtster] * 1
    #7902079 - 01/19/08 02:51 PM (16 years, 13 days ago)

i started introducing light to 1 of my straw tubs its about 80-90% done, its only been about a week since so ill see how it does


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: flushme] * 1
    #7902303 - 01/19/08 04:05 PM (16 years, 13 days ago)

awesome post...
with great pics and write up...
cheers


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: mescalinaz] * 1
    #7903914 - 01/19/08 10:47 PM (16 years, 13 days ago)

i was wondering how exactly you put down the casing. do you spread it out with your hands, and if so, have you ever knocked out a pin doing so?

seems like it would be hard with a layer so thin, maybe its just me.


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: sonicnirvana] * 1
    #7904016 - 01/19/08 11:12 PM (16 years, 13 days ago)

:thumbup:, flush... let me know how it goes.. the way I look at it.. the sooner the better because the less amount of nutes used to "colonize" after full colonization the more available for fruiting... also the same being true for water resources.  :smile:

thanks mesc.

I pasteurize the casing layer like I do with the substrate (in oven bags), but less time since it isn't as dense nor as much in volume.  about two hours.. if you think back to the bit of "shroom math" that we did with the layering, about four handfuls did one layer of bulk substrate, so about three will do a thin layer of casing material... so for the six tubs I made about 20 (to be safe, don't want to not have enough) handfuls of casing material (70/30 verm to coir).  all I did was use a latex gloved hand cleaned with iso and gently laid the casing layer out... if this hobby has taught me anything, it's patience... I'll take all freakin day to do it if need be.. because the alternative is nothing but the possibility of wasted time, money, and sleep. :thumbup:

and actually, now that I think about it... I haven't necessarily learned more patience.. I really only learned that I need many things going at once so that I have multiple things to check on in my daily routine.. lol  (thats soooo freakin funny to me, idk if it is to anyone else) i.e., many projects to take pics of and report back on or inoculate etc. LOL  just freakin realized that... so just grow more shrooms yo.

fahtster


Edited by fahtster (01/19/08 11:22 PM)


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: fahtster] * 1
    #7904363 - 01/20/08 01:20 AM (16 years, 13 days ago)

ok, so I'm about to go on a drunk rant. lol

first of all, I'd like to apologize to those that I pissed off in the past.. namely, agar, magash, RR... I said some pretty shitty things to you.. BUT heres why I get so up in arms...

I post my findings and ways about doing things to help others.. and yes we are ultimately nameless faces.. but the fact still remains that we do these things to escort others through problems that we have faced in an attempt to guide peeps passed those problems.  There once was a time that we (the human race) didn't have monetary reasons for doing anything.  I can only imagine that we did things for others based on the pleasure and ease that it brought them... A simple thank you was enough.. although I'm sure it was something quite different than that. lol 

I'm going to give you an example of why I do anything (and possibly you should too) for anyone else... not only on the OMC but in R/L also..

All energy in a system is conserved... right?  none can be either lost nor gained... it's like a balloon.. if you inflate a balloon and tie it off... think of the balloon and air in the balloon as a single system... the air contained within as the energy.. none can be lost nor gained (nevermind that the balloon will deflate with time lol).  well, if you think of the edges of the universe as the balloon and everything (us included) as the air (energy), it's all the same thing just in different forms..  so we are of the same existence.. everything in the room is of the same energy (at it's purest form)... none lost, none gained... you've always been here and you'll never leave. lol  I think thats what ego loss it.. realizing you are in a balloon.  bound here for eternity and for some that can be scary as hell.  I once stood on the edge of space and stared into it scared shitless... I came too and was depressed for months.. no shit.. but then I realized that that "space" I was staring into was but a mirror... that space was "me" and there was no reason to be scared...

ok, with that said... let me explain my take on time and space. hahaha... first off, for this whole thing to go off right, you must concur that the universe is expanding at an infinite rate in all directions.. even if you believe in the "big bang", eventually, light will be at the forefront of the expansion, since light is the fastest known "thing" in the universe... it will surpass all given time.. and even if it (the universe) not only expands, but contracts like a breath, the result is infinite..

Ok, if you accept that, then proceed..

if space is expanding in all directions infinitely, there is no "real" direction.. anywhere you are in an infinite space, you are in the "middle"... move three inches to the left, you're in the middle, move another three inches, you're in the middle.. and so on.  we use direction (up, down, left, right, over there, here, etc.) to simply organize our lives on this planet, but in the very "big" of it all it's irrelevant.. 

What is time?  time is simply movement... take point "A" and point "B"... move from point "A" to point "B"... how long did it take?  you just invented time. lol  thats why space and time are so closely related.. you can't have one without the other.  movement through space creates time.

ok, heres why we'll never ever ever EVER be able to go back in time... it's impossible in all ways..  ok, so you're in that infinite space... there is no direction... up, down, left, right doesn't exist.. you're at point "A"... you move two feet "forward"... now remember movement equals time... since you moved to point "B", now try to move back to point "A"... you CAN'T. lol  because ANY movement is a "forward" movement in an infinite space.  because direction doesn't exist... if you're going anywhere in an infinite space, you're going "forward". 

let me explain further... there is no point "B"... it's a ghost point.. the INSTANT (and that word doesn't even come close to describing it) you move from point "A", you create another point "A" because there is no direction.  you are always in the middle of the universe... there is only a point "A"... so even if you "try" to go back in time, you are only moving in one direction... the "one" (point "A")  middle to middle to middle to middle... there is no "back" (point "B")... time only moves one way and thats the only way... any movement is a "forward" one... and even calling it "forward" is incorrect as it implies there is a "backward". lol  we all experience the same amount of "change" (time) because we're all on the same rock flying through space at 117,000 miles per hour.  what happens to astronauts when they live off the "rock" for an extended period of time..  they age differently, their notion of time is different, etc. 

Thats what the "moment" is... the instantaneous change from point "A" to point "A" to point "A" to point "A"... everything that was here in this moment forever has always been here... just in different forms. lol  the conservation of energy in a given system.

so there is only one way things can happen and thats the way they do happen... life is about acceptance..  once you accept those things you can't change, you'll live a very full filling life. 

That brings me to the notion of religion (I told you this was a drunk rant lol)... I happen to think we are in "heaven" lol where EVERYTHING is possible... hate, love, war, misery, excitement, pain, pleasure, etc., it's all here... the entire spectrum.. who wants only the left part of the spectrum?  only the "good"?  they say you are in heaven for eternity... when does that start?  in a little bit?  that doesn't make sense.. eternity = infinite... infinite = all directions... even backwards... so that means we've always been in this place and are going nowhere else but this place... so this place = heaven, where all things are possible (as I see it) anyway... even if you went to a place that all "good" things happened, eventually the good things would feel normal... kinda like I feel after a good nights sleep. lol  because there is no other contrast to the "good"... "only 'good' over time" = normal. 

And if you really want that "only good" feeling, learn how to lucid dream... it's all there... your wildest "good" fantasies await you every time you hit the pillow..

so thats why I do what I do on a daily basis.. "I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together."  couldn't have said it better myself. :smile: 

thank you's and a little credit is far more important to me than anything else in this universe... the knowing that I helped someone (even if distant) is far better than any amount of money could be... I've had lots of money and it did me no better than having none.  Mo' Money, Mo' problems. lol 

And thats why I get so up in arms about little things like thank you's. lol  I can't believe I just typed all that.  but anyway.. even this post contradicts itself and the fact that I'm ranting to an audience of myself is pointless.... yet it feels good. :smile: 

anyway, hope I haven't made an ass of myself. lol

fahtster


Edited by fahtster (01/20/08 01:49 AM)


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OfflineRylmonkey
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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: fahtster] * 1
    #7907794 - 01/20/08 10:47 PM (16 years, 12 days ago)

That is the greatest drunken rant(or should I say read) I ever heard! Plus the perfect grow log to follow by. You are now my top shroomery Guru! Yes I am also drunk!


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: Rylmonkey] * 1
    #7912665 - 01/21/08 10:31 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

makes sense to me and im not drunk i was actually talkin about something like this the other day, lol. its all a neverending cycle


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: donpatch] * 1
    #7945488 - 01/28/08 02:01 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

thx for the nice picto


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: fahtster] * 1
    #8877815 - 09/04/08 04:10 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fahtster said:

Then I take a clean knife and poke small holes all over the bag about every two inches to let the substrate breathe while it cools... if you don't do this, you'll probably end up with bacteria infestation.. I've had it happen.

fahtster




Sorry to bump an old post but I just read this and was wondering why letting them cool slowly in the bag without poking holes in the bag is bad?  I've been doing it for a while without any problems.  I am just curious as to why the holes are better for the bags before I start doing it myself.


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: nugjug] * 1
    #8878808 - 09/04/08 07:23 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

This is a pretty interesting tek. Since I have two 58 qt sterilite tubs and 4 pint jars that are fully colonized in my fridge awaiting a glove box, you can only guess what I will be trying next.

Shroom on mate!


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: emerich] * 1
    #8878852 - 09/04/08 07:32 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I have 2 36 gallon tubs. Mine are bigger than yours :sorry:


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: fahtster] * 1
    #9103456 - 10/20/08 10:05 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Yes this is an old thread .... but an awesome one at that! Very interesting. So Faht ... your simply exposing them to fresh air and light right from the time you spawn - awesome. Makes great sense in that you dont waste nutrients, time, and water content for excess colonization.

Two questions:

#1 - Do you ever have instances where they start pinning/fruiting BEFORE full colonization? If so what do you do about it?

#2 -

Quoting you: "Now I even air these out about every other day while they are colonizing.. neglect works, but not as well as a little tender care. if you have the time, do iiiiit."

What do you mean by "air them out during colonization" ??

Are you fanning them during colonization!?? God I would think contams contams .. lol. Please let me know on this, this is a great way to do things and makes life much simpler and I think a lot of peeps could benefit.


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: OZZ] * 1
    #9103637 - 10/20/08 10:51 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

it means he fans them. spray lysol in the air. wait a little bit then open them up. still put plastic wrap over the top. I use that cling shit. Its like cyran wrap with a sticky side. Way easier to use.


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: Shr00mZ] * 1
    #9103875 - 10/20/08 11:50 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Shr00mZ said:
it means he fans them. spray lysol in the air. wait a little bit then open them up. still put plastic wrap over the top. I use that cling shit. Its like cyran wrap with a sticky side. Way easier to use.




Regular lysol in the air isn't such a great idea as that's not what its meant for and will be ineffective.


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: FooMan] * 1
    #9103897 - 10/20/08 11:58 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

nice job man


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: justAdream] * 1
    #9106584 - 10/20/08 09:08 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Well, it seems you've caught me on a good day... I don't usually check the forums anymore.  I've been good.  Busy with life etc..  Got some pretty good things goin' on in a lot of areas of ma world so I've retired growing... too much at risk and I've got enough fruits to last me a couple lifetimes.  but I can answer your questions. :smile:

Quote:

#1 - Do you ever have instances where they start pinning/fruiting BEFORE full colonization? If so what do you do about it?




I never really had that problem.  These are pretty high spawn ratio tubs.  5 qts to 10 wet lbs of sub.  So they colonized fully pretty fast... about 9 days usually.  And right about that time they started pinning.  Air and light are big pinning triggers, but so is how long a substrate is colonized.  If there is a low spawn ratio, the tub is going to take longer to colonize... obviously.  And the areas that the myc jumps off the spawn grain first are going to be colonized the longest.  So if the ratio is low, the myc is going to still be colonizing bulk sub when that first colonized part near the grain is ready to start pinning. 

The other part is how these tubs are set up... Since there is two qts of grain directly below (layering) the top 1" of bulk sub, that grain only has to eat through well, 1" of substrate and does so pretty quickly.  The earliest that I've had pinning start was about 98% colonized (so like a nickle sized spot here and there) which is exactly what I was looking for... Then I did a late case.  Those uncolonized parts eventually filled in... I'm assuming anyway, as they were cased. lol

Quote:

Quoting you: "Now I even air these out about every other day while they are colonizing.. neglect works, but not as well as a little tender care. if you have the time, do iiiiit."

What do you mean by "air them out during colonization" ??

Are you fanning them during colonization!?? God I would think contams contams .. lol. Please let me know on this, this is a great way to do things and makes life much simpler and I think a lot of peeps could benefit.




Yeah, I air them out from day one.  But only every other day during colonization.  Too much Co2 isn't good either.  And if you're pasteurizing correctly, there's no reason to worry about contams from one airing out every other day.  You could probably oust and keep the air still for a half hour before hand if you're that worried about it.  I never had problems though.  And you're only really relieving the top layer of sub exposed to the inside of the bin of high Co2 saturation.  Since they are made with a garbage bag liner doubled up, the liner touching the substrate pulls away with it... so the Co2 build up is kept pretty high within the substrate as it's trapped there via the bag and substrate block itself.  I've actually noticed the colonization speed up in tubs because I relieved the Co2 build up with the air out once every other day.  Myc grows faster in high Co2... to a point, but so do contams.  But that's just what I've seen/experienced... try it, if you like it, use it.  :smile:

And it's always good to know the most about the isolate/strain variety you're using.  If it pins extremely fast, you may want to skip the colonization airing outs.  Thanks for the props!  :smile:


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: nugjug] * 1
    #9106638 - 10/20/08 09:15 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

nugjug said:
Quote:

fahtster said:

Then I take a clean knife and poke small holes all over the bag about every two inches to let the substrate breathe while it cools... if you don't do this, you'll probably end up with bacteria infestation.. I've had it happen.

fahtster




Sorry to bump an old post but I just read this and was wondering why letting them cool slowly in the bag without poking holes in the bag is bad?  I've been doing it for a while without any problems.  I am just curious as to why the holes are better for the bags before I start doing it myself.




sorry I didn't get back to ya... if you're not having problems with it, just keep on doing it the way that's working for ya..  I just had problems with bacteria when leaving them sit in the bag.  Mighta had something to do with the size that I was pasteurizing... maybe didn't get pasteurized as thoroughly as I thought, but after I poked the holes in the bags, they were fine.  :smile:


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Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: fahtster] * 1
    #9106653 - 10/20/08 09:17 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I've been good.  Busy with life etc..  Got some pretty good things goin' on in a lot of areas of ma world so I've retired growing...




Gotta be a woman. :love:
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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: fahtster] * 1
    #10687972 - 07/16/09 12:57 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I know this thread is pretty old, but I was curious about how the 6 mil bags hold up compared to oven bags when pasteurizing. I think ive read of people using the 2 mil bags as well.


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: Samurai_Jim] * 1
    #10688223 - 07/16/09 01:41 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai_Jim said:
That is friggin awesome! That is what I am shooting for. Thanks for the write up.




+1


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: fahtster] * 1
    #10688343 - 07/16/09 02:06 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

nice :thumbup:


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: RogerRabbit] * 1
    #11191364 - 10/06/09 01:04 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

I've been good.  Busy with life etc..  Got some pretty good things goin' on in a lot of areas of ma world so I've retired growing...




Gotta be a woman. :love:
RR




hahaha, how do you retire from growing?  quit kidding yourself, you'll be back...


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: sonicnirvana] * 1
    #11201033 - 10/07/09 02:32 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Great tek!! :thumbup:


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: sixsystemz] * 1
    #11476206 - 11/17/09 07:25 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Nice tek man-and nice rant! :grin:
I totally agree with the spirit in which it was given and, ironically, you've given me a little boosting food for thought with a (sober!) theory of the nature of time in a space that is practically a multilayered, multicoloured superconducter.

...so thank you twice. :tongue2: :bow2:


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: fahtster] * 1
    #11843961 - 01/16/10 09:33 PM (14 years, 15 days ago)

this is awesome. Your the shit. You've helped me out.


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: fahtster]
    #12347991 - 04/07/10 11:15 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

What is that tape that you use over the airflow holes on the sides of your bin? I notice a lot of people stuff them with something that looks like cotton.


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: abusedtoaster]
    #12348724 - 04/07/10 01:22 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

It's micropore tape, you can find it at walgreens no problem.  The "cottony" stuff is called polyfil, you can buy it at any craft store, it's just polyester filling.


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: intlslacker]
    #12349208 - 04/07/10 02:33 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

a $2-3 pillow from target will last you a long time.


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: intlslacker]
    #12350050 - 04/07/10 04:39 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I can't say enough good things about Micropore tape (however order the 2" stuff 'cuz the 1/2" stuff from walmart is too narrow)... First and foremost: you don't have to worry about your fruits growing through the tape as they so often do with the polyfill. No more pulling polyfill out of your teeth because it is thoroughly homogenized with your stem. Secondly, it keeps in moisture while letting air through- keeps your sub hydrated longer! Third, no little white puffballs protruding precariously from the side of your tubs that will inevitably get caught on stuff and pull out... Fourth, the micropore can get completely soaked and still stick to the tub, polyfill will just let water through. Micropore is the shit!


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: CDS]
    #12468753 - 04/27/10 10:02 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I'm really happy somebody bumped this because I had a few noob questions but didn't want to restart a two year old thread.

So I guess I don't really understand the difference between Overlay and that fully colonized top substrate layer. I mean (correct me if I'm wrong) overlay is just dead matted mycelium that create a barrier that pins cannot emerge through? I understand your colonized substrate is not dead or matted, but I guess my question is why it isn't and why casing layers become overlayed if that substrate layer isn't (If that makes sense)?

Also I'm wondering what material you used to case the top and when you know to start casing?

Apologies in advance if these answers are obvious or already answered, I'm very new, just started my first PF Cakes about week ago.  I'm looking through your late casing thread and it is very interesting for sure.


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: Chlawre]
    #12468794 - 04/27/10 10:11 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

50/50+ is the best casing. Casing is not really needed.

Don't worry about overlay, it is very rare.










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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: george castanza]
    #12468926 - 04/27/10 10:36 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

So with this Tek it would be acceptable to neglect a casing?

Also, the colonized top layer of substrate has potential to overlay?


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: Chlawre]
    #12468945 - 04/27/10 10:39 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

It would work fine with out a casing.

Don't even worry about overly. I doubt I have seen it 3 times.



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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: george castanza]
    #12468988 - 04/27/10 10:47 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Alright, Thank you very much!


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Offlinebigcrackrock
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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: Chlawre]
    #12469109 - 04/27/10 11:16 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I just ripped off some little mycelium covered shrooms I gave up on.


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Invisiblewillgeezy

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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: Chlawre]
    #12470155 - 04/28/10 06:54 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Chlawre said:
I'm really happy somebody bumped this because I had a few noob questions but didn't want to restart a two year old thread.
Quote:

.

your welcome! i'm actually picking my first PE harvest today!!!! this thread actually inspired me to start PE. I'll post pics today or tomorrow. I :heart: you shroomery! thanks for everything!!!! :penis::penis:


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InvisibleCDS
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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: Chlawre]
    #12476947 - 04/29/10 11:29 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Chlawre said:
So with this Tek it would be acceptable to neglect a casing?





In fact my friend been doing just that for a while now with great results... Most tubs reach 8 flushes with great yields and zero post-fruiting-contamination; the trick is to start spraying the subs with a light to moderate spray of water prior to dunking (after a few flushes when they start to get nasty), to remove any possible contams that might have started forming, and dunk between every flush.

When the subs start to get really slimy and mushy and break apart when you lift them (around flush 5 - 8) he lets them flush one more time and then tosses them.

As long as you keep dunking them they don't need a casing because they get all the h2o they need from you. The rest of the process is almost identical to the above tek except dehydrated manure is used instead of fresh.

One other thing to remember is that you must pasteurize for 4 hours+ because you are using enclosed bags... Whereas most people tell you to pasteurize straw in a pillow case for an hour or so, we do it for longer with this tek because the sub is more being steamed then being boiled. You see, if we threw the whole mess in a pot in a pillow case, the manure's nutrients would be leeched out by the water (which then gets thrown away) so that's why we use plastic bags and pasteurize longer. The only downside is that with this method you must get the water content of the sub right (called saturation to field capacity) because the sub cannot saturate itself while pasteurizing like in the pillow case method. I have no experience with straight straw, but I can imagine that end yields would be significantly less if the manure wasn't present to lend it's nutes, therefore the added inconvenience of the plastic bag pasteurization is well worth it.

I know you didn't ask about all that but it was a question I had when I first read this tek so that's why I explained it...

Good Luck


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Offlineabused
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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: sonicnirvana]
    #14219040 - 04/01/11 04:46 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

awesome this helped me alot, thanks!


--------------------
We all think were pearls,
but in reality,
were just the sand,
that irritates the clam.


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Offlinetrashcansean
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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: fahtster]
    #14557198 - 06/03/11 07:37 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Amazing as always Faht!!


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Offlinemrmojoshroomin
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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: fahtster]
    #15921581 - 03/08/12 07:39 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Big Time man!!!!


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OfflineMr.Sir
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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: mrmojoshroomin]
    #19439878 - 01/18/14 09:36 PM (10 years, 12 days ago)

Yes!! That's looking prime!


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: Mr.Sir]
    #19439924 - 01/18/14 09:48 PM (10 years, 12 days ago)

:homerdoh3:
here i was hoping faht had blessed the boards!


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It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn

I'm tired do me a favor


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OfflineEdmunter
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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: cronicr]
    #19565843 - 02/14/14 11:01 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Ok, so you use 70/30 verm casing.  Do u have the TEK for the one u use?


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: Edmunter]
    #19566195 - 02/14/14 12:39 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7708447#7708447
fahts late casing method, but just follow any  casing tek for the recipe


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It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn

I'm tired do me a favor


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OfflineEdmunter
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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: FooMan]
    #19626780 - 02/27/14 03:26 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

:rasta:


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Offlineenraged
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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: Edmunter]
    #19627129 - 02/27/14 04:47 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

impressive grow man


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OfflineEdmunter
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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: FooMan]
    #19628868 - 02/28/14 01:22 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

I have 8 jars of spawn to work with. My tub takes anywhere between 25 and 28 jars. Will this ratio of 1 to 2 be okay for a late case method


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Offlinetmoney85
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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: fahtster]
    #20441765 - 08/19/14 09:49 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Brilliant!

Excellent write up :smile:


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Offlinetripdawg420
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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: tmoney85]
    #20441781 - 08/19/14 09:53 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------
HUSTLER
How U Survive This Life Everyday Resourcefully
epic GT mono tub
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17277772

wbs tek
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11525679
coir tek
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11917410
results :thumbup:


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OfflineLumpyNutz
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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: tripdawg420]
    #20441827 - 08/19/14 10:02 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

You fucking rock dude! I am definitely going to try this! :rockon:

I've been wanting to try bulk and finally, a simply explained tek, with photos every step too! Props buddy :thumbup:


--------------------
This is uh... no offence... but you are a robot aren't you?


GET SHPONGLED


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Offlinederricklimes
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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: sonicnirvana]
    #22146890 - 08/26/15 02:36 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

nice grow bro! thanks for sharing!


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OfflinePsilosoulful

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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: derricklimes]
    #22147016 - 08/26/15 02:57 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

:oldthread:


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Offlineaghabheegy
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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: Psilosoulful]
    #24186841 - 03/23/17 05:53 PM (6 years, 10 months ago)

But it is so amazing!


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OfflineThe_breadsticks
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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: aghabheegy]
    #24186856 - 03/23/17 05:57 PM (6 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

aghabheegy said:
But it is so amazing!



The old thread thing was posted a year ago.

Please stop.


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OfflineHKBA
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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: fahtster]
    #25701481 - 12/25/18 02:25 AM (5 years, 1 month ago)

Awesome write up, super easy to follow!
I was just wondering though, for the ease of temperature control, would placing the oven bags in the oven at 165F for 4.5 hours be sufficient for pasteurisation? Thanks again, great information!


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InvisiblefahtsterM
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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: HKBA]
    #25702215 - 12/25/18 02:29 PM (5 years, 1 month ago)

I don’t see why not.. as long as the centers get to the correct temperature for long enough, go for it.  I can’t remember if I stated it earlier in the thread or not (too lazy to go back and look) but I’d do the pasteuration in smaller batches than the big bags.  :thumbup:

Faht


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OfflineNihilismus
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Cake has fruited 4 times - use to colonise bulk tub? [Re: fahtster]
    #25885066 - 03/20/19 04:53 AM (4 years, 10 months ago)

Grateful for the post faht thanks. Have you ever tried to break up a cake that has already fruited several times (but still has life) to use as spawn in a bulk tub? What do you think my chances are of it colonising well?


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InvisiblefahtsterM
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Re: Cake has fruited 4 times - use to colonise bulk tub? [Re: Nihilismus]
    #25905681 - 03/30/19 11:01 AM (4 years, 9 months ago)

It’s probably not a great idea if you’re relying on the cake for more fruits.  The cake will be covered in contamination and the myc will be weaker from already having fruited.  I’d say, not worth the risk, but I’m all about experimenting because it’s fun.  If you have extra cakes and bulk sub, go for it and see what happens

Faht


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OfflineBrewPup
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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: fahtster]
    #28307669 - 05/05/23 10:59 AM (8 months, 20 days ago)

I like the idea of using Tbags instead of a pillowcase to pasteurize the hpoo.  Gonna have to try that next time.


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