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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Do you, or do you not....? Yes or No.....
#7890959 - 01/16/08 11:01 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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A scenario for you.... See if you can put yourself in these shoes.... Then answer as if you were in these shoes.... Well.... ....if you can answer....
For a 200 mile radius around where you currently are, the land has been invaded by a hostile enemy.... It is like a world war, only it is just a massive amount of troops in the one area, and you are smack dab~ in da~ middle with no weapons.... The troops have orders to kill all remaining civilians....
You and a few of your townspeople have sought refuge in a house.... Outside you hear the voices of soldiers who have come to search the houses for valuables.... Your baby (who is in your arms) begins to cry very loudly.... You cover it's mouth to block the sound.... If you remove your hand from your child's mouth, her crying will summon the attention the attention of the soldiers; who will kill you, your child, and all of the others hiding out in the house....
To save yourself and the others, you must smother your child to death....
.
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens



Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
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Re: Do you, or do you not....? Yes or No..... [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7891061 - 01/16/08 11:26 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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okay so either we all die or a baby dies, i can live with that.
EDIT: baby dies no matter what so why is this a tough decision?
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Edited by learningtofly (01/16/08 11:27 PM)
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Do you, or do you not....? Yes or No..... [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7891068 - 01/16/08 11:28 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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I'd do whatever was necessary for the greater good.
I'd have a hard time living with myself afterward though. In fact, I might not be able to live with myself at all and might end up checking myself out of the hotel of life early after doing that. Maybe.
I think about impossible philosophical dilemmas like these sometimes. It helps me understand myself. It also allows me to make pre-decisions with a clear head and lots of time to think so that in the unlikely even that I ever find myself in that situation, I'll be able to react quickly to minimize whatever harm was coming.
Of course, deciding to do something and actually doing it are two different things.
I asked something similar here recently:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7172102#Post7172102
How would YOU react?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Do you, or do you not....? Yes or No..... [Re: learningtofly]
#7891074 - 01/16/08 11:29 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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baby dies no matter what so why is this a tough decision?
Rationally, it's a simple decision.
Humans aren't entirely rational.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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skiihigh
underground



Registered: 01/02/08
Posts: 372
Loc: USA
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Re: Do you, or do you not....? Yes or No..... [Re: Diploid]
#7891114 - 01/16/08 11:37 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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well whats the point of killing the baby, what then? id put the baby in a quiet place (like a closet) grap a baseball bat or just my fists. and then if they diddnt hear the baby i would go to the door and yell to a or a few soldiers something along the lines of "you, come quick! quick!) the soldiers would probably be very confused and as soon as they came in the house me and the townspeople would ambus them and hopefully (using the element of surprise) take their weapons. if they did hear the baby id just put my dukes up and hope for the best
-------------------- When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. -Jimi Hendrix ALL OF MY POSTS ARE FICTIONAL Most Outrageous Thread Ive Ever Hijacked---http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/9613658/an/0/page/0
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Do you, or do you not....? Yes or No..... [Re: skiihigh]
#7891131 - 01/16/08 11:40 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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id put the baby in a quiet place (like a closet)
You're missing the point.
If there were a quiet place to put the baby, then obviously, that's the answer.
But this is a hypothetical dilemma; these are a cornerstone of philosophical thought. There are only two choices: everyone dies at the hands of the soldiers or only the baby dies at your hand.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens



Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
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Re: Do you, or do you not....? Yes or No..... [Re: skiihigh]
#7891132 - 01/16/08 11:40 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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So you'd get everyone killed? Okay if it was like a 15 yr old or an 8 yr old or something that'd be a tough choice but a baby is gona be what? a few months old? It has no experience. Sure i'm gonna be sad about it but i dont have a choice.
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skiihigh
underground



Registered: 01/02/08
Posts: 372
Loc: USA
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Re: Do you, or do you not....? Yes or No..... [Re: learningtofly]
#7891158 - 01/16/08 11:46 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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well what would u do after u killed the baby seems like that would just be postponing the inevitable
-------------------- When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. -Jimi Hendrix ALL OF MY POSTS ARE FICTIONAL Most Outrageous Thread Ive Ever Hijacked---http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/9613658/an/0/page/0
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BlueCoyote
Beyond



Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
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Re: Do you, or do you not....? Yes or No..... [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7891802 - 01/17/08 05:05 AM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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Even if I don't like such unrealistic dilemma questions and I always search a third way out, I maybe would let the soldiers kill the baby. Therefor I would let the baby cry, put it on the floor and hide myself somewhere in the house.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Do you, or do you not....? Yes or No..... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#7891804 - 01/17/08 05:07 AM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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That's cheating.
That option is not available. If it were, it would be a DIFFERENT dilemma than the one we're discussing.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,795
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Re: Do you, or do you not....? Yes or No..... [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7891814 - 01/17/08 05:11 AM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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I'd wait until they're right beside the IED and I'd press CALL. How'd you like them apples 
Well in your scenario its the baby's death or all die including the baby. If you look at it like that the answer seems straightforward. You'll tear yourself up on the inside for the rest of your life though.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Do you, or do you not....? Yes or No..... [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7891819 - 01/17/08 05:20 AM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
You and a few of your townspeople have sought refuge in a house.... Outside you hear the voices of soldiers who have come to search the houses for valuables.... Your baby (who is in your arms) begins to cry very loudly.... You cover it's mouth to block the sound.... If you remove your hand from your child's mouth, her crying will summon the attention the attention of the soldiers; who will kill you, your child, and all of the others hiding out in the house....
To save yourself and the others, you must smother your child to death....
You get an 'F' for originality. A variant of this situation was done in the last episode of TV's 'M*A*S*H'.
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MrKite1
Cosmo


Registered: 03/02/04
Posts: 1,384
Loc: AK
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Re: Do you, or do you not....? Yes or No..... [Re: Asante]
#7891820 - 01/17/08 05:21 AM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
I'd wait until they're right beside the IED and I'd press CALL. How'd you like them apples

Those bomb making skills one picks up as a youth always could come in handy.
-------------------- When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,795
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Re: Do you, or do you not....? Yes or No..... [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7891821 - 01/17/08 05:22 AM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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C'mon Orgone, make your choice. No point in posting here if you don't go for A or B.
Quote:
Those bomb making skills one picks up as a youth always could come in handy.
Lets pray they never will.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
Edited by Asante (01/17/08 05:24 AM)
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 20 days
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Re: Do you, or do you not....? Yes or No..... [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7891824 - 01/17/08 05:24 AM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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> Do you, or do you not....? Yes or No....
What was the middle one, again? -Otto from A Fish Called Wanda
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Do you, or do you not....? Yes or No..... [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7892040 - 01/17/08 08:06 AM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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i think the question comes from the heart of boredom or is it the lack of soccer. you have so much intellectual power, yet this game emerges.
is there a lack of good topics?
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_ 🧠_
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Do you, or do you not....? Yes or No..... [Re: Diploid]
#7892242 - 01/17/08 09:38 AM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: I'd do whatever was necessary for the greater good.
I'd have a hard time living with myself afterward though. In fact, I might not be able to live with myself at all and might end up checking myself out of the hotel of life early after doing that. Maybe.
I think about impossible philosophical dilemmas like these sometimes. It helps me understand myself. It also allows me to make pre-decisions with a clear head and lots of time to think so that in the unlikely even that I ever find myself in that situation, I'll be able to react quickly to minimize whatever harm was coming.
Of course, deciding to do something and actually doing it are two different things.
I asked something similar here recently:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7172102#Post7172102
How would YOU react?
Greater good? I wonder what that might be?
You would really have little idea what the outcome of your actions would be in a situation like that one.
Better not to have found yourself inside the house anyway. I would much rather die outdoors.
Many American Indians choose such a fate rather then move on to the reservations or be shot down in a huddled group. There is a time to fight even if the cause seems hopeless.
I would rather kill my child then let some asshole possibly muck up the job. I'm not too concerned about the rest of the folk in that house. How did I end up with that bunch anyway. My bad.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (01/17/08 09:42 AM)
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a_guy_named_ai
Stranger

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 767
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
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Re: Do you, or do you not....? Yes or No..... [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7892656 - 01/17/08 11:52 AM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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There's not enough factors taken into this question.
It's not realistic because you don't know for a fact what will happen next.
I think I might dig a hole and bury the baby in it with a airhole so the baby could breath. I'd knock the baby unconscious if I had to. Then I would bury myself perhaps and hope I don't get found. realisticlly I don't see how me suffocating the baby to death would be better then getting a quick bullet in the head.
morbid question, ugh.
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Veritas


Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Do you, or do you not....? Yes or No..... [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7893148 - 01/17/08 01:47 PM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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I voted no, as it would be impossible to foresee the outcome of smothering the baby. You might do so, only to discover that the soldiers discovered you anyway, and that they were now under orders to move all residents to a concentration camp.
Additionally, you do realize that it is possible to cover a baby's mouth without suffocating him/her? A baby can breathe through his/her nose, just like an adult. I'd just breastfeed my baby until the danger had passed. This would both eliminate the noise & calm both of us down.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Do you, or do you not....? Yes or No..... [Re: Veritas]
#7893170 - 01/17/08 01:55 PM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
I'd just breastfeed my baby until the danger had passed.
What if I was crying loudly?
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Veritas


Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Do you, or do you not....? Yes or No..... [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7893175 - 01/17/08 01:56 PM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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I'd tell you to shut the fuck up before you get us killed.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Do you, or do you not....? Yes or No..... [Re: Veritas]
#7893181 - 01/17/08 01:58 PM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Do you, or do you not....? Yes or No..... [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7893477 - 01/17/08 03:31 PM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
I'd just breastfeed my baby until the danger had passed.
What if I was crying loudly?
What do you mean if? You're always bellyaching around here.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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sleepy
zZzZzZzZz


Registered: 01/17/05
Posts: 3,888
Loc:
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Re: Do you, or do you not....? Yes or No..... [Re: Icelander]
#7893510 - 01/17/08 03:36 PM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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set the baby down, walk outside and punch the first soldier i see in the face.
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mushbaby
woodswalker




Registered: 09/30/06
Posts: 2,645
Loc: in my own lil world
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Re: Do you, or do you not....? Yes or No..... [Re: sleepy]
#7893636 - 01/17/08 04:00 PM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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Maybe before I'd had a kid I would say yes. Now, no way. That child is my responsibility. Maybe the townspeople would end up killing us both.
And why can't I just try to make him pass out instead of killing him? And I wouldn't hide in buildings. Too many caves in these hills.
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Re: Do you, or do you not....? Yes or No..... [Re: mushbaby]
#7894607 - 01/17/08 07:48 PM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: I'd do whatever was necessary for the greater good. . I'd have a hard time living with myself afterward though. In fact, I might not be able to live with myself at all and might end up checking myself out of the hotel of life early after doing that. Maybe. . I think about impossible philosophical dilemmas like these sometimes. It helps me understand myself. It also allows me to make pre-decisions with a clear head and lots of time to think so that in the unlikely even that I ever find myself in that situation, I'll be able to react quickly to minimize whatever harm was coming. . Of course, deciding to do something and actually doing it are two different things. . I asked something similar here recently: . https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7172102#Post7172102 . How would YOU react?
I can think of MANY alternative ways try to get out of the situation, but that is neither hear nor there..... It seems weird to say that it is "appropriate" to kill a child, but it *seems* to be for the greater good in this context....
Maybe there would be hopes of resuscitating the child after the danger was "gone".... Or even a way to incapacitate the child's vocal chords, or something..... But, even that could lead to the child's death, so it is not a definite way out - worth a shot.... It would weigh heavy on me, and I am sure the decision would haunt me until death, but I don't think I would consider suicide....
These "ugly" questions are a good thought experiment.... It is weird how they can make you feel uncomfortable....! But then, for some people, they may be real situations....
Your child in a boat thread was a good one, as I am sure the other one in this forum is with a similar title to this one (I will go there next).... 
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: You get an 'F' for originality. A variant of this situation was done in the last episode of TV's 'M*A*S*H'.
 I didn't make up the scenario, it almost came almost verbatim from a program called "Explorer: The Science of Evil" off of one of the learning channels.... 
The only Doctor show I watch is HOUSE, a good situational ethics/cynically entertaining show.... 
Quote:
redgreenvines said: i think the question comes from the heart of boredom or is it the lack of soccer. you have so much intellectual power, yet this game emerges. . is there a lack of good topics?
It came from TV.... It was a question that made me uncomfortable as I thought about it.... That to me, is interesting.... 
Quote:
Veritas said: Additionally, you do realize that it is possible to cover a baby's mouth without suffocating him/her? A baby can breathe through his/her nose, just like an adult. I'd just breastfeed my baby until the danger had passed. This would both eliminate the noise & calm both of us down.
I hadn't considered breast feeding the child in my arms....!  I agree with the other possible options, but that was not the question....
Quote:
mushbaby said: Maybe before I'd had a kid I would say yes. Now, no way. That child is my responsibility. Maybe the townspeople would end up killing us both. . And why can't I just try to make him pass out instead of killing him? And I wouldn't hide in buildings. Too many caves in these hills.
I had considered if being a parent made a difference in the decision, but I not a parent, so I can't put myself in the exact same shoes.... I don't know if my answer would change or not.... Maybe someday I will know.... 
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'


Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
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Re: Do you, or do you not....? Yes or No..... [Re: Veritas]
#7895034 - 01/17/08 09:29 PM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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I was about to say the exact same thing Veritas said about nose breathing... the breastfeeding is an even more brilliant idea, though. It's such an obvious thing yet it would only occur to a mother!
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Do you, or do you not....? Yes or No..... [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7895066 - 01/17/08 09:35 PM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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A man could give the baby a finger to suckle...the idea is the same, though the methods may vary.
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igwna
The Cap'n


Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 8,016
Loc: New England, USA
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
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Re: Do you, or do you not....? Yes or No..... [Re: Veritas]
#7895630 - 01/17/08 11:50 PM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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FUCK that. my child isn't gonna die by my hand. either way we all die when the soldiers bust in looking for loot. i'd put the child somewhere safe (as in it can't fall) and grab some kind of weapons and wait for those fuckers.. or kill my neighbors if they tried to hurt my young'n.
this is an extreme situation.
but in any situation where its kill my kin or die, i'd always fight for them.
-------------------- I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens



Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
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Re: Do you, or do you not....? Yes or No..... [Re: igwna]
#7895707 - 01/18/08 12:10 AM (16 years, 14 days ago) |
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Wow some people are examining this too much... the question is very simple...
Either you kill the baby and everyone else lives or you don't kill the baby and the soldiers kill everyone including the baby.
Quit pussy footing around it, would you kill it or not that is the question
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