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NiamhNyx
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born to the wrong generation?
#7889799 - 01/16/08 07:17 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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Does anyone else ever feel like they were born to the wrong generation? That what they desire in life is lacking in the present era? I want to live in a revolutionary, vibrantly experimental time... but unfortunately I find myself alive in what is perhaps the most complacent time and place to have ever existed. A product exists to fill every possible desire and people's authentic desires are recuperated by the marketplace instead of explored more directly/honestly. A lot of people are horrified by the present political situation, but there is no movement like we saw in the 30's or the 60's. Why? For all you old timers who were around for the 60's-- what do you think happened to diffuse that energy and momentum?
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adrug

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Re: born to the wrong generation? [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7889834 - 01/16/08 07:26 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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If they reinstated the draft in the US, I bet there would be a movement. In the 60's, people protested the war because they were forced to fight.
Not that I want the US government to do that, but it might force some change...or it might be a terrible mess and tear this country apart.
My mom used to tell me that I should've switched places with her, somehow. She was in her 20's during the 60's but she was the married housewife of an army lieutenant in the midwest, and didn't experience any of the things that I would have, had I been alive in the 60's in her place.
But I'm rather glad that I'm alive now instead, with all the great technological advances and social advances. Granted we still have a long way to go, but every little bit gets us that much closer. The world has changed dramatically just over the last hundred years, and its exciting (and somewhat scary) to think about what it will become over the next hundred years.
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: born to the wrong generation? [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7889850 - 01/16/08 07:29 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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I wonder about this myself. Maybe some are able to express their authentic desires through the system? Doesn't seem like it to me though - most people I see on the subway look apathetic or depressed. People have been programmed to accept what they are given. I feel a lot of people are not educated or simply accept things as "the way it is" even if everything inside them is telling them something is off.
Or maybe I'm just projecting? Sometimes I'm fine with the system - it provides me with entertainment and provides nourishment for my physical senses and physical needs. Then there are times where I walk outside and I just feel this overwhelming sense that the world sucks and most people suck. The two are kind of separate thoughts I suppose, but society IS a collection of people after all.
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NiamhNyx
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Most of the time I'm perfectly 'happy'. I have a pretty decent life, good friends, good food, a lot of love and joy to be explored. But then I have pangs of longing, of loss, of sorrow for the momentum of the society in which I live. For the increasingly rapid destruction of the wild world. For the ever expanding network of surveillance and repression. I long to live in a generation that stands up to this instead of living on our knees. The phrase "You can't be neutral on a moving train" is striking. We are barrelling along on a train that has set it's tracks straight in the direction of a brick wall. But how many of us are struggling to bring the train to a halt, to pull a track switch to set us along another course? I want to commit my life to stopping the train, but it can't be done alone. It can't be done in isolation. I long for the sort of popular movement previous generations experienced - and I long for a movement that is better able to withstand the pressure of recuperation. I'm not willing to be resigned.
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: born to the wrong generation? [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7890056 - 01/16/08 08:06 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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That's an interest phrase, never heard of it before. Funny that you mention it, because it ties in with a lot of my beliefs about Riding The Subway. The Subway to me perfectly represents the repression you talk about. When I walk into a subway train downtown, I joke to myself that I've just entered limbo.
I mean, here you have all these unique beings, sitting side by side with all these amazing ideas (hopefully, i'm probably being way too optimistic here) and life history. Yet everyone keeps to themselves and does not even dare make eye contact. It's pretty shitty if you ask me. Nothing ever changes about the subway rides either. Everyone on the bus could be completely different people from the last day, yet nothing about the ride has changed! Sometimes I really want to change things up, but as you said it can't be done alone - this applies to the "train of society" in general as well.
I don't know if it's a matter of education, or awareness, or just general contentment in the fact that "this is enough". A lot of people who really want change have kind of given up on the idea of an actual revolution and I think now the direction is more in strengthening the bonds of friends, family and strangers (rather than enforcing the artificial isolation of society) in order to prepare for whatever disaster we may find ourselves in whether it be caused by the environment or a serious economic depression (maybe the rise of fascism?)
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Love Cap
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I think we might be living in the time of REAL change. Yeah, a lot of people stood up and made a little bit of change in the 30's and 60's... but nothing like what could be happening now. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing! First of all, I think mother earth is definitely taking a strong stand. If you haven't noticed, a lot of crazy shit has been going down when it comes to the weather. Yeah, maybe you can call it just global warming, but I think it could be a lot more. Also, a lot of shit has been going down in politics! I don't know, just putting it all together.. I also think we're coming upon an information war, hopefully the time will come soon when information is just freely accessed... kind of like the internet is now, but a lot more open to all kinds of knowledge. We also are hopefully realizing in science that our minds are where we need to be exploring. (well, besides space of course) I think this should include psychedelics. Either way, I think there's a lot of exciting shit happening in the world today, and this time I'm pretty sure something is actually going down! I dunno, maybe it's the apocalypse, maybe it's world war three, maybe it's a huge shift in consciousness, maybe it's whatever is supposed to happen on 2012?? Who knows, but the point is... I think we're living in a very exciting point in time!
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Cubie
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Re: born to the wrong generation? [Re: Love Cap]
#7890525 - 01/16/08 09:45 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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I wish I was 18 in 1969
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NiamhNyx
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I agree that square one is having strong, nurturing relationships with friends and family and breaking down barriers of alienation between people within communities. Not only is it square one, but it's the lifeblood of any effective, resilient movement. If you look at any historic movement pretty much anywhere in the world, the strongest ones were centred in tight communities. e.g. The Black Panthers fed children in the ghetto. But nurturing relationships aren't enough in and of themselves -- in part because the economic organization of our society restrains the depth of relationships that might otherwise be formed within a community. We are all too busy running on the hampster wheel of wage slavery that we don't have the time or emotional resources left for the lives and relations we might otherwise build. So a committment to developing the fullest relations possible inevitably puts one at odds with the current status quo, with the existent.
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MushmanTheManic
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Re: born to the wrong generation? [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7891216 - 01/17/08 12:00 AM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
NiamhNyx said: A lot of people are horrified by the present political situation, but there is no movement like we saw in the 30's or the 60's.
Yes there is. It just doesn't get any media coverage. The worldwide demonstrations before the beginning of the Iraq war were much much larger and better organized than any Vietnam rally. Plenty of people all over the world are working to improve our situation. You just have to look in the right places.
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Icelander
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Re: born to the wrong generation? [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7892274 - 01/17/08 09:47 AM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
NiamhNyx said: Does anyone else ever feel like they were born to the wrong generation? That what they desire in life is lacking in the present era? I want to live in a revolutionary, vibrantly experimental time... but unfortunately I find myself alive in what is perhaps the most complacent time and place to have ever existed. A product exists to fill every possible desire and people's authentic desires are recuperated by the marketplace instead of explored more directly/honestly. A lot of people are horrified by the present political situation, but there is no movement like we saw in the 30's or the 60's. Why? For all you old timers who were around for the 60's-- what do you think happened to diffuse that energy and momentum?
I have felt this but I doubt if it's accurate not really knowing what past conditions were like. Ancient Greece seems like a good choice though.
And technology is what diffused the momentum of the 60/70s. The govt knew what it was doing when it gave certain concessions to the "hippies". Technology is the flavor of the times for control of people now. Consumerism is the carrot to keep people right in line and the threat of the loss of their toys and comforts.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (01/17/08 09:52 AM)
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soulcircus
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Re: born to the wrong generation? *DELETED* [Re: Icelander]
#7892303 - 01/17/08 09:56 AM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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Post deleted by soulcircusReason for deletion: .
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NiamhNyx
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Re: born to the wrong generation? [Re: soulcircus]
#7892383 - 01/17/08 10:27 AM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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Mush- you're right, I know. There is a lot going on and I am aware of a great deal of it. The media ignores it intentionally to downplay it and make it appear nothing is going on. It's rather effective. In North America, this stuff doesn't have the mass momentum previous generations have experienced, though. Millions of people marching for one day of thier lives and never being active again doesn't really count as a movement to me... Not to be a cynic. I'd just like to see more.
Ice- of course, you're right. There was a concerted effort to water down, diminish and recuperate the hippie thing. "Bread and circuses" is a good strategy for social control. Give the people basic food, limited "rights" and plenty of entertainment and they'll be too comfortable to reflect on the outrageous injustice this society requires to function.
Soulcircus- I hope you're right. I've thought as much myself, but at the same time we've seen this society recover from potential breakdown and radical change time after time after time and it's entirely possible that it will keep on trucking along for another few centuries. God forbid. The current technology being developed for surveillance and repression is incredibly daunting.
I don't want to sound the pessimist, because the last thing I want to do is reinforce the notion that it's too big, that there's nothing we can do. That's a lie. It's an effective lie that keeps tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands or even millions of potential allies from standing on thier feet and living. Instead there is always the promise of the hampster wheel... material abundance if only one is willing to be a productive member of capital.
I think the primary difference between the 30's or 60's and now is that in those generations, people truly believed that they were building revolution. I watched a film in which a 60's activist said they expected revolution in the US within 5 years. Now the most common phrase I hear is "well, you're right and everything, but there's nothing we can do", "it's too big," etc... I see this belief as a much bigger obstacle to the building of a vibrant movement than nearly anything else.
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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: born to the wrong generation? [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7892416 - 01/17/08 10:37 AM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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People talk about going somewhere, but they never mention where they're going. Where are you headed, where do you want to go. If you are progressive, what is your goal, and why. I think peace is not good enough for most people. If there were peace people would scream for revolution and battle. If there is war people will scream for peace.
It's not enough to say you want vibrancy or revolution.
My personal opinion is that people's hearts are restless and beg for chaos, disobedience and war and their end is nihilism.
Edited by a_guy_named_ai (01/17/08 10:39 AM)
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NiamhNyx
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I want to live in a world in which the richest 350 people do not control wealth equivalent to the bottom 40%. I want to live in a world in which indigenous cultures are not undermined and torn apart to create new underclasses to fill the most dangerous production jobs in our economy. I want to live in a world in which we don't have to be worried that the salmon, herring, cod, and other fisheries may be obliterated within a few years time; in which the last stands of old growth are not under threat of decimation; in which the rivers don't poison the fish thus poisoning us; in which uranium mines don't poison the game thus poisoning native elders who refuse to give up traditional life; in which people are not imprisoned for protecting thier communities from such threats; in which the police, judicial system and army aren't paid to protect the people who are ensuring all of the above exists and continues.
Is that good enough for you? I can make the list longer.
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Icelander
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Re: born to the wrong generation? [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7892522 - 01/17/08 11:09 AM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
NiamhNyx said: I want to live in a world in which the richest 350 people do not control wealth equivalent to the bottom 40%. I want to live in a world in which indigenous cultures are not undermined and torn apart to create new underclasses to fill the most dangerous production jobs in our economy. I want to live in a world in which we don't have to be worried that the salmon, herring, cod, and other fisheries may be obliterated within a few years time; in which the last stands of old growth are not under threat of decimation; in which the rivers don't poison the fish thus poisoning us; in which uranium mines don't poison the game thus poisoning native elders who refuse to give up traditional life; in which people are not imprisoned for protecting thier communities from such threats; in which the police, judicial system and army aren't paid to protect the people who are ensuring all of the above exists and continues.
Is that good enough for you? I can make the list longer.
Well now you know how it feels to want. The question is what are you going to do about it? If you continue to want unrealistic things you will feel this way right up to the end. You have to ask yourself if that's ok by you. If not then what can you do, what is exactly within your power?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Cubie
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Re: born to the wrong generation? [Re: Icelander]
#7892528 - 01/17/08 11:11 AM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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anything is. we just need to stand up and take the powerback... we run this country not them. i dont even get why since we out number them a million to one
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Icelander
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Re: born to the wrong generation? [Re: Cubie]
#7892545 - 01/17/08 11:15 AM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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You haven't looked far enough down the rabbit hole my friend. Down there you will get a real honest look at human nature.
Or you could read some history and do a thorough self examination.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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WhiskeyClone
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Re: born to the wrong generation? [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7892625 - 01/17/08 11:35 AM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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Like adrug said, I think conscription for Vietnam moved a lot of people to action in the 1960s.
I do think our current atmosphere of dissatisfaction in the west will lead to some sort of movement in the next few decades though. It really depends on how individuals respond to our dissatisfaction with the status quo.
Be careful not to romanticize other eras though; history highlights the exciting and dramatic parts.
-------------------- Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it. ~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: born to the wrong generation? [Re: Icelander]
#7892835 - 01/17/08 12:33 PM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: You haven't looked far enough down the rabbit hole my friend. Down there you will get a real honest look at human nature.
Or you could read some history and do a thorough self examination.
There is no such thing as "human nature". Humans are almost infinitely malleable, compared to what psychology wants to say. Remember, all of history and human nature is in our minds, and thus are only made real in the present by our minds.
You are clearly looking at things from the vantage point of human history. However, if you were to squeeze the entire Universe's history into 24 hours, the big bang being 12:00 in the morning, and the formation of the Earth at about 6:00 pm, humankind has only been around since 11:59:50 pm. The dinosaurs would have been around for about 6 minutes, while we have only been around for about 10 seconds.
Human civilization starts at about 11:59:54 - Columbus discovered America in about 1 milisecond. The point I'm trying to make is that we've barely come on to the scene and people already want to say that we have a fixed and stable nature, which is absurd. Looking at the last 100 years to try and get a hold of who we are is very very very short sighted. We have the power to change the enviroment in 1 milisecond, change our ideas and beliefs, change our entire modus operates.
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Rose
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: There is no such thing as "human nature". Humans are almost infinitely malleable, compared to what psychology wants to say. Remember, all of history and human nature is in our minds, and thus are only made real in the present by our minds.
I disagree.
Yeah, humans are smart... compared to other animals. And we have technology...
... but...
We're really not that complex when viewed from afar.
If humans were kept as pets... the handbook for keeping a pet human happy would be quite simple.
Keep your human fed.
Give your human water.
Give your human toys to keep it happy.
Don't put two male humans in the same cage as a female.
Keeping a human as a pet is about as easy as raising chickens.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Cubie
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said:
Quote:
Icelander said: You haven't looked far enough down the rabbit hole my friend. Down there you will get a real honest look at human nature.
Or you could read some history and do a thorough self examination.
There is no such thing as "human nature". Humans are almost infinitely malleable, compared to what psychology wants to say. Remember, all of history and human nature is in our minds, and thus are only made real in the present by our minds.
You are clearly looking at things from the vantage point of human history. However, if you were to squeeze the entire Universe's history into 24 hours, the big bang being 12:00 in the morning, and the formation of the Earth at about 6:00 pm, humankind has only been around since 11:59:50 pm. The dinosaurs would have been around for about 6 minutes, while we have only been around for about 10 seconds.
Human civilization starts at about 11:59:54 - Columbus discovered America in about 1 milisecond. The point I'm trying to make is that we've barely come on to the scene and people already want to say that we have a fixed and stable nature, which is absurd. Looking at the last 100 years to try and get a hold of who we are is very very very short sighted. We have the power to change the enviroment in 1 milisecond, change our ideas and beliefs, change our entire modus operates.
this is the most intelligent post ive read all day. maybe all week
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MushmanTheManic
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Re: born to the wrong generation? [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7893342 - 01/17/08 02:56 PM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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If you really want to live "in a revolutionary, vibrantly experimental time", then I suggest hanging out with some biotechnology graduate students and/or Transhumanists.
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Icelander
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You are just postulating a big maybe. I'm working from experience and fact. I see little to no evidence of change in humans emotionally since the dawn of recorded history. You can believe what ever makes you comfortable. I'll stick with my best guess.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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mushbaby
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Back to the original question:
I often thought my mother was born in the wrong generation. Although she made a great hippie, I think she really should have lived during the mid to late 1800's. She chose to make everything herself that she could. Later she chose to live on her property w/o running water or electricity.
Some here have wondered why so few stand up and fight what bothers them. They make pills for that now. Seems half the people I know are on some kind of drug for depression/anxiety/being hyper. Anymore it seems like if something bothers us we aren't supposed to examine it or fix it, we're just offered a pill to make us not care.
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Icelander
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Re: born to the wrong generation? [Re: mushbaby]
#7893442 - 01/17/08 03:22 PM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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The fishing was better and more fun then too.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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mushbaby
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Re: born to the wrong generation? [Re: Icelander]
#7893457 - 01/17/08 03:26 PM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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Aw but no fishfinders.
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Icelander
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Re: born to the wrong generation? [Re: mushbaby]
#7893468 - 01/17/08 03:29 PM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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Don't want all that shit. It distracts you from the real reason you need to be out fishing.
Besides if you "learn" to fish it's much more fun and skillful and "finders" are completely unnecessary.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Veritas


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Quote:
There is no such thing as "human nature". Humans are almost infinitely malleable, compared to what psychology wants to say. Remember, all of history and human nature is in our minds, and thus are only made real in the present by our minds.
Sorry, but this has little or no basis in fact. The genetic reality of being human is something we all share, and it is NOT all in our minds. The animal reactions we have to the circumstances we face are NOT "infinitely malleable," but rather hard-wired and difficult to avoid. The communal programming which we all take on as we grow up is similarly difficult to avoid, though somewhat more malleable than our genetic makeup.
Human nature is more than just an idea, and must be taken into account when considering the possibilities available to us as humans.
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Icelander
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Re: born to the wrong generation? [Re: Veritas]
#7893525 - 01/17/08 03:39 PM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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Word
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: born to the wrong generation? [Re: Icelander]
#7894003 - 01/17/08 05:13 PM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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Dunno 'bout that. Here is me pulling in a small one last summer.
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Icelander
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-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: born to the wrong generation? [Re: Icelander]
#7894026 - 01/17/08 05:22 PM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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I caught him. Now you gut him and clean him whilst I fire up the grill.
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: born to the wrong generation? [Re: Icelander]
#7894494 - 01/17/08 07:21 PM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: You are just postulating a big maybe. I'm working from experience and fact. I see little to no evidence of change in humans emotionally since the dawn of recorded history. You can believe what ever makes you comfortable. I'll stick with my best guess.
Maybe you see no evidence in humans emotional change because you're not looking for it? What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. Start looking harder and you will see that progress in human temperament is possible. Especially if you take on this goal for yourself - IMO, this is the best way I could lead you towards evidence.
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: born to the wrong generation? [Re: Veritas]
#7894515 - 01/17/08 07:24 PM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Quote:
There is no such thing as "human nature". Humans are almost infinitely malleable, compared to what psychology wants to say. Remember, all of history and human nature is in our minds, and thus are only made real in the present by our minds.
Sorry, but this has little or no basis in fact. The genetic reality of being human is something we all share, and it is NOT all in our minds. The animal reactions we have to the circumstances we face are NOT "infinitely malleable," but rather hard-wired and difficult to avoid. The communal programming which we all take on as we grow up is similarly difficult to avoid, though somewhat more malleable than our genetic makeup.
Human nature is more than just an idea, and must be taken into account when considering the possibilities available to us as humans.
If there is a single human nature than there must be an eternal soul. If everything is genetics, than there can't be a Human Nature because genetics change over time, yes? You are allowed to say that "this is the current human condition" - that is fine - what is foolish to say is that humans will always repeat the same mistakes and the same behaviors for as long as we exist. Nobody has such far vision... like I said, we've been around for about 10 seconds; so how about we give it just a BIT more time?
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NiamhNyx
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I tend to lean towards the 'no such thing as human nature' side of the debate. It is undeniable that we have certain biological needs which determine, to some extent, what priorities we will have on a daily basis. It is nearly impossible to escape the drive to seek out food, water, shelter, sex and some sort of human companionship but needs and drives don't constitute 'human nature.' The way human societies organize and fulfill these needs is almost infinitely diverse. I think that maybe the only things that could be refered to as 'human nature' that differ from any other general living thing is 1)we are social creatures - we have a damn difficult time surviving alone 2)our most useful evolutionary adaptation is analytical thinking. But this doesn't tell us much of anything about how we behave. Our behaviour is so much more complex than these fundamental characteristics.
e.g. We all need food -- some develop extensive knowledge of the habits of wild game and the types of plants that grow in thier area; others rely on an extensive, global production and distribution system to fill stores with items produced in all regions of the world. These are the two most divergent examples I can think of, so it illustrates my point clearly. Fundamental drives are the only things we have which can be refered to as 'human nature' yet two distinct expressions of the same drive are almost unrecognizable in thier difference.
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MushmanTheManic
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Re: born to the wrong generation? [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7895614 - 01/17/08 11:46 PM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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Neuroscience, anthropology, psychology, and other fields are all beginning to adopt views similar to the one created in linguistics by Noam Chomsky. Chomsky's theory is that all human beings share a universal grammar. The principles of language does not vary within or between cultures, but the parameters of language do. In other words, our brain is inherently equipped with the tools needed to construct and speak language. The basic principles of language are laid out in our minds before we even begin learning a specific language. Learning a language consists of figuring out the specific parameters (eg. words, object-subject or subject-object). All these other fields of knowledge are starting to use principle and parameter thinking in their theories now, too. Or, at least, something very similar to it.
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Icelander
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said:
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Icelander said: You are just postulating a big maybe. I'm working from experience and fact. I see little to no evidence of change in humans emotionally since the dawn of recorded history. You can believe what ever makes you comfortable. I'll stick with my best guess.
Maybe you see no evidence in humans emotional change because you're not looking for it? What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. Start looking harder and you will see that progress in human temperament is possible. Especially if you take on this goal for yourself - IMO, this is the best way I could lead you towards evidence.
Oh I looked for it. For longer then you have been alive. I also have changed my own emotional landscape. But I still have not progressed past the best of the ancient past by any means.
You have no evidence.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: born to the wrong generation? [Re: Icelander]
#7896647 - 01/18/08 09:22 AM (16 years, 14 days ago) |
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But I still have not progressed past the best of the ancient past by any means.
Then you have a long way to go 
I'd like you to at least admit that we are not knowledgeable enough to know if humanity will be just "more of the same" for the next million years or if there is room for evolution and growth towards the light. You're what, 50-60 years old? And you think you've seen everything that humanity is capable of? That sounds more like senility than experience.
When I was 3 years old, I thought the rest of my life was going to be similar to being 3 years old, I would just be doing different activities. This is similar to humans being around for all of 10 seconds in relation to the Universe and thinking they know what the deal is for the next year, which is infinitely longer than a second.
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Icelander
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what is foolish to say is that humans will always repeat the same mistakes and the same behaviors for as long as we exist. Nobody has such far vision... like I said, we've been around for about 10 seconds; so how about we give it just a BIT more time?
While nobody can say anything about the future we can certainly make educated guesses based on past and present evidence.
I believe your mind set on humanity is based on a conscious or unconscious belief in the superiority of humanity as a species and set apart from other animals.
The dinosaurs were always dinosaurs. It's pure speculation that had they not gone extinct (a likely fate for humanity) they would now be enlightened emotional beings and not ripping and tearing at each other and their environment.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: born to the wrong generation? [Re: Icelander]
#7896682 - 01/18/08 09:31 AM (16 years, 14 days ago) |
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I believe your mind set on humanity is based on a conscious or unconscious belief in the superiority of humanity as a species and set apart from other animals.
You would be wrong. My argument is based on the idea of evolution.
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The dinosaurs were always dinosaurs. It's pure speculation that had they not gone extinct (a likely fate for humanity) they would now be enlightened emotional beings and not ripping and tearing at each other and their environment.
Speculation? No, this is based off the logic of evolution and progress. If you don't believe progress is possible, then I'm sorry to say you have severely limited yourself. The dinosaurs didn't have reason or self-reflective awareness. Believe it (or not), this makes us superior to them.
I'm not saying humans are "better" than dinosaurs, although we are. The point was that change is the only constant in the universe, so it makes no sense to say that there is a fixed human nature.
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Icelander
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My God you don't read well. I never said progress wasn't possible. Start thinking before replying please.
There is no logical progression in evolution toward the emotional states you speculate about. Evolution does not necessarily have the same goals as you do. Survival and procreation dude. We have done that very well without the emotional changes you seem to think are inevitable.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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I'm not saying humans are "better" than dinosaurs, although we are
 
Better by your standards maybe but they were around a lot fucking longer than we have been.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (01/18/08 09:38 AM)
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: born to the wrong generation? [Re: Icelander]
#7896718 - 01/18/08 09:42 AM (16 years, 14 days ago) |
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I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. From the way I see it, every person who becomes more rational (think rational self interest) and gains better control of their mind is a step forward in emotional progress. I happen to think that survival and procreation will take a step backward in importance at some point and human virtues will become self-directed. Speculation? maybe. I don't see any evidence that proves the opposite, other than your own beliefs about "twas ever thus" being an eternal truth.
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“If we’re looking at the highlights of human development, you have to look at the evolution of the organism and then at the development of its interaction with the environment. Evolution of the organism will begin with the evolution of life perceived through the hominid coming to the evolution of mankind. Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon man. Now, interestingly, what you’re looking at here are three strings: biological, anthropological — development of the cities — and cultural, which is human expression.
Now, what you’ve seen here is the evolution of populations, not so much the evolution of individuals. And in addition, if you look at the time scales that are involved here — two billion years for life, six million years for the hominid, 100,000 years for mankind as we know it — you’re beginning to see the telescoping nature of the evolutionary paradigm. And then when you get to agricultural, when you get to scientific revolution and industrial revolution, you’re looking at 10,000 years, 400 years, 150 years. Uou’re seeing a further telescoping of this evolutionary time. What that means is that as we go through the new evolution, it’s gonna telescope to the point we should be able to see it manifest itself within our lifetime, within this generation.
The new evolution stems from information, and it stems from two types of information: digital and analog. The digital is artificial intelligence. The analog results from molecular biology, the cloning of the organism. And you knit the two together with neurobiology. Before on the old evolutionary paradigm, one would die and the other would grow and dominate. But under the new paradigm, they would exist as a mutually supportive, noncompetitive grouping. Okay, independent from the external.
And what is interesting here is that evolution now becomes an individually centered process, emanating from the needs and desires of the individual, and not an external process, a passive process where the individual is just at the whim of the collective. So, you produce a neo-human, okay, with a new individuality and a new consciousness. But that’s only the beginning of the evolutionary cycle because as the next cycle proceeds, the input is now this new intelligence. As intelligence piles on intelligence, as ability piles on ability, the speed changes. Until what? Until we reach a crescendo in a way could be imagined as an enormous instantaneous fulfillment of human, human and neo-human potential. It could be something totally different. It could be the amplification of the individual, the multiplication of individual existences. Parallel existences now with the individual no longer restricted by time and space.
And the manifestations of this neo-human-type evolution, manifestations could be dramatically counter-intuitive. That’s the interesting part. The old evolution is cold. It’s sterile. It’s efficient, okay? And its manifestations of those social adaptations. We’re talking about parasitism, dominance, morality, okay? Uh, war, predation, these would be subject to de-emphasis. These will be subject to de-evolution. The new evolutionary paradigm will give us the human traits of truth, of loyalty, of justice, of freedom. These will be the manifestations of the new evolution. And that is what we would hope to see from this. That would be nice.”
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Icelander
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I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. From the way I see it, every person who becomes more rational and gains better control of their mind is a step forward in emotional progress. I happen to think that survival and procreation will take a step backward in importance at some point and human virtues will become self-directed. Speculation? maybe. I don't see any evidence that proves the opposite, other than your own beliefs about "twas ever thus" being an eternal truth.
Once again. I don't disagree that becoming more rational is not emotional progress. Yet there is not one bit of evidence that the percentage of people doing this is any different than it was in our historical past.
Speculation maybe? Speculation definitely! You seem to think the earths evolutionary process is going to all of a sudden put survival on a back burner. There is no evidence anywhere for this except in a delusional ego state IMO.
I don't see any evidence that proves the opposite,
You're not a fundamentalist creationist religious person are you? For if you cannot see evidence of evolution and it's processes then you need glasses.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: born to the wrong generation? [Re: Icelander]
#7896774 - 01/18/08 10:03 AM (16 years, 14 days ago) |
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I don't want to start endorsing social darwinism, but I do believe in evolution beyond simply the physical level - I know that rubs you the wrong way
But alas, I am done with this argument and must be off now. The Bible won't read itself after all.
Quote:
You seem to think the earths evolutionary process is going to all of a sudden put survival on a back burner. There is no evidence anywhere for this except in a delusional ego state IMO.
Besides the fact that our life spans are a lot longer now and most of our lives are spent peacefully interacting with each other, in the industrialized world at least. That's basically the only evidence I have. I believe Darwin will take care of the people who live out of fear and survival mindset.
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Icelander
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But alas, I am done with this argument and must be off now. The Bible won't read itself after all.
Praise de laud.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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NiamhNyx
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said:
Besides the fact that our life spans are a lot longer now and most of our lives are spent peacefully interacting with each other, in the industrialized world at least. That's basically the only evidence I have. I believe Darwin will take care of the people who live out of fear and survival mindset.
People who make major life choices due to what Maslow called "deficiency orientation", the fear of not having enough material security, tend to be the ones who accumulate the most wealth and thereby come by greater power in industrial capitalist society. Most of us are too busy running on the hampster wheel to 'evolve' emotionally. Industrial capitalist society is more of a hinderance than a help, as far as I'm concerned. There is also reasonable evidence that this emotional 'evolution' that individuals may or may not engage in is something that has been available and explored by people since the dawn of our species. I just can't see a case for what you are advocating, and I believe that this popular notion is more a product of wishful thinking than any convincing observations.
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: born to the wrong generation? [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7897102 - 01/18/08 11:46 AM (16 years, 14 days ago) |
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Is it that we are forced to be busy, or that we enjoy busying ourselves with distractions which allow us to avoid thinking? I don't know, just a thought.
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backfromthedead
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I think there is a small movement going on. Google's Current TV reflects this.
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Icelander
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Re: born to the wrong generation? [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7897133 - 01/18/08 12:05 PM (16 years, 14 days ago) |
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Industrial capitalist society is more of a hindrance than a help, as far as I'm concerned.
Unfortunately I agree here. Technology is now just another program for cultural control. This would make sense as all changes and innovations are incorporated into the status quo
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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NiamhNyx
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We are manipulated by the economic structure and values of our society to alienate our labour from our lives, to be prositutes essentially-- working to reproduce the very society that diminishes our humanity. It's not fun to face the painful reality of this, so many of us choose to accept values and justifications for it that will make it seem less ugly, and the entertainment that makes it seem a little softer and prettier. It's not a matter of explicit force, nor is it a matter of free choice. It's a matter of being mystified, of not being aware of our authentic possibilities.
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Icelander
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Re: born to the wrong generation? [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7897167 - 01/18/08 12:18 PM (16 years, 14 days ago) |
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right
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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