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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: born to the wrong generation? [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7896701 - 01/18/08 09:36 AM (16 years, 14 days ago)

My God you don't read well. I never said progress wasn't possible. Start thinking before replying please.

There is no logical progression in evolution toward the emotional states you speculate about. Evolution does not necessarily have the same goals as you do. Survival and procreation dude. We have done that very well without the emotional changes you seem to think are inevitable.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: born to the wrong generation? [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7896703 - 01/18/08 09:37 AM (16 years, 14 days ago)

I'm not saying humans are "better" than dinosaurs, although we are

:rofl2::monkeydance:

Better by your standards maybe but they were around a lot fucking longer than we have been.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (01/18/08 09:38 AM)


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Posts: 7,152
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Re: born to the wrong generation? [Re: Icelander]
    #7896718 - 01/18/08 09:42 AM (16 years, 14 days ago)

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. From the way I see it, every person who becomes more rational (think rational self interest) and gains better control of their mind is a step forward in emotional progress. I happen to think that survival and procreation will take a step backward in importance at some point and human virtues will become self-directed. Speculation? maybe. I don't see any evidence that proves the opposite, other than your own beliefs about "twas ever thus" being an eternal truth.

Quote:

“If we’re looking at the highlights of human development, you have to look at the evolution of the organism and then at the development of its interaction with the environment. Evolution of the organism will begin with the evolution of life perceived through the hominid coming to the evolution of mankind. Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon man. Now, interestingly, what you’re looking at here are three strings: biological, anthropological — development of the cities — and cultural, which is human expression.

Now, what you’ve seen here is the evolution of populations, not so much the evolution of individuals. And in addition, if you look at the time scales that are involved here — two billion years for life, six million years for the hominid, 100,000 years for mankind as we know it — you’re beginning to see the telescoping nature of the evolutionary paradigm. And then when you get to agricultural, when you get to scientific revolution and industrial revolution, you’re looking at 10,000 years, 400 years, 150 years. Uou’re seeing a further telescoping of this evolutionary time. What that means is that as we go through the new evolution, it’s gonna telescope to the point we should be able to see it manifest itself within our lifetime, within this generation.

The new evolution stems from information, and it stems from two types of information: digital and analog. The digital is artificial intelligence. The analog results from molecular biology, the cloning of the organism. And you knit the two together with neurobiology. Before on the old evolutionary paradigm, one would die and the other would grow and dominate. But under the new paradigm, they would exist as a mutually supportive, noncompetitive grouping. Okay, independent from the external.

And what is interesting here is that evolution now becomes an individually centered process, emanating from the needs and desires of the individual, and not an external process, a passive process where the individual is just at the whim of the collective. So, you produce a neo-human, okay, with a new individuality and a new consciousness. But that’s only the beginning of the evolutionary cycle because as the next cycle proceeds, the input is now this new intelligence. As intelligence piles on intelligence, as ability piles on ability, the speed changes. Until what? Until we reach a crescendo in a way could be imagined as an enormous instantaneous fulfillment of human, human and neo-human potential. It could be something totally different. It could be the amplification of the individual, the multiplication of individual existences. Parallel existences now with the individual no longer restricted by time and space.

And the manifestations of this neo-human-type evolution, manifestations could be dramatically counter-intuitive. That’s the interesting part. The old evolution is cold. It’s sterile. It’s efficient, okay? And its manifestations of those social adaptations. We’re talking about parasitism, dominance, morality, okay? Uh, war, predation, these would be subject to de-emphasis. These will be subject to de-evolution. The new evolutionary paradigm will give us the human traits of truth, of loyalty, of justice, of freedom. These will be the manifestations of the new evolution. And that is what we would hope to see from this. That would be nice.”






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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: born to the wrong generation? [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7896746 - 01/18/08 09:51 AM (16 years, 14 days ago)

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. From the way I see it, every person who becomes more rational and gains better control of their mind is a step forward in emotional progress. I happen to think that survival and procreation will take a step backward in importance at some point and human virtues will become self-directed. Speculation? maybe. I don't see any evidence that proves the opposite, other than your own beliefs about "twas ever thus" being an eternal truth.

Once again.:tongue: I don't disagree that becoming more rational is not emotional progress. Yet there is not one bit of evidence that the percentage of people doing this is any different than it was in our historical past.

Speculation maybe? Speculation definitely! You seem to think the earths evolutionary process is going to all of a sudden put survival on a back burner. There is no evidence anywhere for this except in a delusional ego state IMO.


I don't see any evidence that proves the opposite,

You're not a fundamentalist creationist religious person are you?:whoa: For if you cannot see evidence of evolution and it's processes then you need glasses.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: born to the wrong generation? [Re: Icelander]
    #7896774 - 01/18/08 10:03 AM (16 years, 14 days ago)

I don't want to start endorsing social darwinism, but I do believe in evolution beyond simply the physical level - I know that rubs you the wrong way  :sorry:

But alas, I am done with this argument and must be off now. The Bible won't read itself after all.

Quote:

You seem to think the earths evolutionary process is going to all of a sudden put survival on a back burner. There is no evidence anywhere for this except in a delusional ego state IMO.




Besides the fact that our life spans are a lot longer now and most of our lives are spent peacefully interacting with each other, in the industrialized world at least. That's basically the only evidence I have. I believe Darwin will take care of the people who live out of fear and survival mindset.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: born to the wrong generation? [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7896817 - 01/18/08 10:16 AM (16 years, 14 days ago)


But alas, I am done with this argument and must be off now. The Bible won't read itself after all.


Praise de laud.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: born to the wrong generation? [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7897089 - 01/18/08 11:39 AM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

EternalCowabunga said:

Besides the fact that our life spans are a lot longer now and most of our lives are spent peacefully interacting with each other, in the industrialized world at least. That's basically the only evidence I have. I believe Darwin will take care of the people who live out of fear and survival mindset.




People who make major life choices due to what Maslow called "deficiency orientation", the fear of not having enough material security, tend to be the ones who accumulate the most wealth and thereby come by greater power in industrial capitalist society. Most of us are too busy running on the hampster wheel to 'evolve' emotionally. Industrial capitalist society is more of a hinderance than a help, as far as I'm concerned. There is also reasonable evidence that this emotional 'evolution' that individuals may or may not engage in is something that has been available and explored by people since the dawn of our species. I just can't see a case for what you are advocating, and I believe that this popular notion is more a product of wishful thinking than any convincing observations.


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: born to the wrong generation? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7897102 - 01/18/08 11:46 AM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Is it that we are forced to be busy, or that we enjoy busying ourselves with distractions which allow us to avoid thinking? I don't know, just a thought.


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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: born to the wrong generation? [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7897124 - 01/18/08 12:02 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

I think there is a small movement going on. Google's Current TV reflects this.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: born to the wrong generation? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7897133 - 01/18/08 12:05 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Industrial capitalist society is more of a hindrance than a help, as far as I'm concerned.

Unfortunately I agree here. Technology is now just another program for cultural control. This would make sense as all changes and innovations are incorporated into the status quo


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNiamhNyx
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Posts: 3,198
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Re: born to the wrong generation? [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7897149 - 01/18/08 12:11 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

We are manipulated by the economic structure and values of our society to alienate our labour from our lives, to be prositutes essentially-- working to reproduce the very society that diminishes our humanity. It's not fun to face the painful reality of this, so many of us choose to accept values and justifications for it that will make it seem less ugly, and the entertainment that makes it seem a little softer and prettier. It's not a matter of explicit force, nor is it a matter of free choice. It's a matter of being mystified, of not being aware of our authentic possibilities.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: born to the wrong generation? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7897167 - 01/18/08 12:18 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

right


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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