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trendal
J♠



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Separateness and individuality
#7888015 - 01/16/08 12:14 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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We only are "we" because of this individuality thing, this separateness that we have to endure. I, that is the part of "me" that isn't me, am the same person/thing/super-mind as the one behind "you" (or the part of "you" that isn't you).
Make sense?
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Separateness and individuality [Re: trendal]
#7888044 - 01/16/08 12:23 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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Wait a minute... . Ok, now say that one more time.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Separateness and individuality [Re: trendal]
#7888054 - 01/16/08 12:27 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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I suspect that what you're saying is that each of us could have the exact same personalities if we had the exact same circumstances, right?
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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trendal
J♠



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Posts: 20,815
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Re: Separateness and individuality [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7888071 - 01/16/08 12:34 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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No that wasn't, but that's an excellent observation. Thanks you!
What I see when you look at me, is myself staring back
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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WScott
´ ɑ `▽ ᑲᓇᑕ


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Re: Separateness and individuality [Re: trendal]
#7888105 - 01/16/08 12:45 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
trendal said: No that wasn't, but that's an excellent observation. Thanks you!
What I see when you look at me, is myself staring back
Idealistically or literally?
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trendal
J♠



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Separateness and individuality [Re: WScott]
#7888117 - 01/16/08 12:47 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quite literally
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
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Re: Separateness and individuality [Re: trendal]
#7888119 - 01/16/08 12:48 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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Yes, we find our way through reality by making use of identification patterns. Everything that we learn translates to who we are.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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vigilant_mind
unfazed



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Re: Separateness and individuality [Re: trendal]
#7888178 - 01/16/08 01:01 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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This sounds similar to Ken Wilber's idea of our indepedent experiences of consciousness simply being the Kosmos viewing itself from different vantage points.
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WScott
´ ɑ `▽ ᑲᓇᑕ


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Re: Separateness and individuality [Re: trendal]
#7888190 - 01/16/08 01:07 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
trendal said: Quite literally
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Separateness and individuality [Re: trendal]
#7888234 - 01/16/08 01:20 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
trendal said: We only are "we" because of this individuality thing, this separateness that we have to endure. I, that is the part of "me" that isn't me,
How can you say your personality isn't a part of who you are? That doesn't make sense to me. Who does the personality belong to then? It may not be the whole but it's a part.
T
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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trendal
J♠



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Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Separateness and individuality [Re: Icelander]
#7888293 - 01/16/08 01:37 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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No you misunderstood me...
I was saying that the personality is not the whole of what a person is. As MushroomTrip pointed out, the personality is entirely made up from what we experience.
I was hoping to make a distinction between what obviously is "me", and what is "I/we/us". For lack of better terminology consider "me" to be the person who is typing this, and "I/we/us" to be the "soul" that is behind each of us.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Love Cap
Wanderer



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Re: Separateness and individuality [Re: trendal]
#7888348 - 01/16/08 01:55 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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It's our egos that keep us separate. Our personalities are a mix of that and our experiences. I can say that our personalities aren't ENTIRELY made up of our experiences because for example, take two twins that were separated at birth, they find each other 30 years later, and they have a lot of the same personality traits. So yeah, it does have some to do with blood line or whatever. But I think the essence of you or me, is mostly that inner connection between all of us, you know?
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



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Re: Separateness and individuality [Re: trendal]
#7888387 - 01/16/08 02:14 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
trendal said: I was saying that the personality is not the whole of what a person is. As MushroomTrip pointed out, the personality is entirely made up from what we experience.
Not entirely. Not at all.
Experience plays a LARGE role in making us who we are...
But genetics... and intelligence also shape our personalities.
Someone with a low IQ will experience the SAME EVENTS differently than someone with a high IQ.
Same goes for someone who was born with autism... and someone who was not.
Sorry. Try again.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Ahimsa
µdose



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Re: Separateness and individuality [Re: trendal]
#7888407 - 01/16/08 02:20 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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I believe we are all different. And also that we are made of the same stuff, and that makes us the same. A bit like seeing two roses. No-one can say there is only one rose. And yet both of them are 'rose'.
Is that what you mean? I some way or another?
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



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Re: Separateness and individuality [Re: trendal]
#7888456 - 01/16/08 02:35 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
trendal said:
I was hoping to make a distinction between what obviously is "me", and what is "I/we/us". For lack of better terminology consider "me" to be the person who is typing this, and "I/we/us" to be the "soul" that is behind each of us.
There is a HUGE difference between the word, "Soul" and the words, "I" "We" and, "Us".
To begin with... I exist.
We exist.
And look at us! We all exist too.
A, "Soul" has never been proven to exist.
"I" "We" and "Us" have all been proven to exist.
THAT is a BIG difference.
Also, the definitions for the words, "I" "We" and "Us" are NOT SYNONOMOUS with the word, "Soul".
That means... the words, "I" "We" and "Us" mean something entirely different than the word, "Soul".
That too is a BIG difference.
With that in mind... I have no clue what you are trying to say Tren.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Ahimsa
µdose



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Re: Separateness and individuality [Re: trendal]
#7888476 - 01/16/08 02:42 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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Do you mean that two things of the same sort (genus, group, origine, etc...) are different individually but the same collectively?
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crumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex


Registered: 04/24/07
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Re: Separateness and individuality [Re: Rose]
#7888479 - 01/16/08 02:44 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Cervantes said:
"I" "We" and "Us" have all been proven to exist.
Descarte tried very, very hard to prove that people exist.
Ultimately, he could only tentatively prove that HE existed with the now famous aphorism, "I think, therefore I am."
The existence of others cannot be proven any more than the existence of a soul. So, as you say, Sorry, Try Again.
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trendal
J♠



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Separateness and individuality [Re: Rose]
#7888558 - 01/16/08 03:06 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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Sorry. Try again.
That was only an aside, something somebody else pointed out. It isn't true, personality is only mostly made up from experience. It is, as you point out, also dependent on genetic factors.
A, "Soul" has never been proven to exist.
Lack of evidence is not evidence of a lack 
I know a "soul" has not been proven to exist. Thank you very much for stating the obvious.
Also, the definitions for the words, "I" "We" and "Us" are NOT SYNONOMOUS with the word, "Soul".
*sigh* 
Quote:
trendal said: For lack of better terminology consider "me" to be the person who is typing this, and "I/we/us" to be the "soul" that is behind each of us.
I put the phrase in bold so that you would actually read it.
With that in mind... I have no clue what you are trying to say Tren.
Yes, you've proven that.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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trendal
J♠



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Separateness and individuality [Re: Ahimsa]
#7888583 - 01/16/08 03:10 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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I believe we are all different. And also that we are made of the same stuff, and that makes us the same. A bit like seeing two roses. No-one can say there is only one rose. And yet both of them are 'rose'.
In effect, yes.
However if you take a pile of roses...am I any different? I probably contain most of the same atoms, in almost the same concentrations. What makes me different is important, but only so far as I am a live human being.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



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Re: Separateness and individuality [Re: crumblebum]
#7888708 - 01/16/08 03:38 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
crumblebum said:
Quote:
Cervantes said:
"I" "We" and "Us" have all been proven to exist.
Descarte tried very, very hard to prove that people exist.
Ultimately, he could only tentatively prove that HE existed with the now famous aphorism, "I think, therefore I am."
The existence of others cannot be proven any more than the existence of a soul. So, as you say, Sorry, Try Again.
Well played Crumble. 
I much prefer someone to refute my logic with more logic. I bet Trendal WISHES his reply was as clever as yours. His neener-neener defense was a bit weak... if you ask me.
You heard what happened to Descarte's wife didn't you?
They were fucking one night... and she made a moan. Descarte was thrilled. "Are you cumming honey?" Descarte asked his wife.
Dissapointed, she replied, "I don't THINK I AM."
She was never seen or heard from again.
Descarte was not surprised.
(Rimshot)
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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trendal
J♠



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Separateness and individuality [Re: Rose]
#7888762 - 01/16/08 03:48 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Cervantes said: With that in mind... I have no clue what you are trying to say Tren.
I can't defend what I'm saying very easily when you have no clue what it is
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



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Re: Separateness and individuality [Re: trendal]
#7888787 - 01/16/08 03:52 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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Yes.
But I'd wager there ARE words in the English language that would express your thoughts more clearly than the words you have chosen to use.
You say you lack better words.
I say you could look for some.
It'd help us all.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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trendal
J♠



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Separateness and individuality [Re: Rose]
#7888804 - 01/16/08 03:56 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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It'd help us all.
You seem to be in the minority with respect to not understanding me. A few people certainly understood what I was talking about.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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krin
Stranger


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Re: Separateness and individuality [Re: trendal]
#7888989 - 01/16/08 04:32 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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me, you, I, this, that and whatever
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backfromthedead
Activated


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Re: Separateness and individuality [Re: krin]
#7889085 - 01/16/08 04:53 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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And wherever!!
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



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Re: Separateness and individuality [Re: trendal]
#7889302 - 01/16/08 05:37 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
trendal said: You seem to be in the minority with respect to not understanding me. A few people certainly understood what I was talking about.
And several others have no clue what you are talking about.
Let me show you why I am SO confused... along with OC... Icelander... etc.
Here's your first post.
Quote:
trendal said: We only are "we" because of this individuality thing, this separateness that we have to endure. I, that is the part of "me" that isn't me, am the same person/thing/super-mind as the one behind "you" (or the part of "you" that isn't you).
OK...
We are, "We" because of individuality Please clarify. I am confused. Surely I am not the only one in here confused by THAT little jem.
"I" is the part of me that isn't me I have no clue what you are saying there. I thoight, "I" was the part of me that IS me. Surely I am not alone. Could you clarify this thought, please?
Actually, could you clarify that WHOLE sentence. I am not being rude when I say I have no idea what you meant by: "I, that is the part of "me" that isn't me, am the same person/thing/super-mind as the one behind "you" (or the part of "you" that isn't you)"
I am honestly confused.
I read what you wrote SEVERAL TIMES.
I HAVE tried to understand what you are saying... and when I voiced my confusion, you brushed me off... but LOOK AT YOUR OWN WORDS and tell me there WASN'T a CLEARER way to say what you were TRYING TO SAY!
For Pete's sake, I wouldn't have asked you to CLARIFY your thought, if I weren't interested in discussing it with YOU!
Please, Tren, don't pretend that I am in the minority here. THAT was a confusing-ass post. I mean no offense. It just was. I KNOW you can do better than THAT. You've done so MANY times in the past.
If I can CLEARLY explain to you why your post is SO confusing... can't you do the courteous thing, and explain yourself... instead of giving me another snarky remark?
I would really appreciate it.
We BOTH agree. I have NO idea what you are talking about. THAT is a FACT.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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adrug

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 15,800
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Re: Separateness and individuality [Re: Rose]
#7889389 - 01/16/08 05:55 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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You're arguing with yourselves!
I get a kick out of that.
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



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Re: Separateness and individuality [Re: adrug]
#7889401 - 01/16/08 05:57 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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Us are very confusing to I/we/you.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Love Cap
Wanderer



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Re: Separateness and individuality [Re: Rose]
#7889622 - 01/16/08 06:41 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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for once, i'm the one ~~~>
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



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Re: Separateness and individuality [Re: Love Cap]
#7889657 - 01/16/08 06:49 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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Nice isn't it?
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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crumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex


Registered: 04/24/07
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Re: Separateness and individuality [Re: Rose]
#7890459 - 01/16/08 09:30 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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Man, I was feeling sassy at work today.
Maybe we're talking about the problem of the one and the many? Something that makes humans humans but still allows me to be me and you to be you? Or maybe the different versions that exist of ourselves? The internet version that makes wise ass remarks without a thought, the interpersonal version who avoids confrontation and subsumes it into generalized misanthropy, or the internalized chimpanzee who, once wound up, will waddle along and slam his cymbals together until his spring runs out.
Mmm. I found some good weed tonight.
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



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Re: Separateness and individuality [Re: crumblebum]
#7890565 - 01/16/08 09:51 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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And tonight... I'm dry. There's our problem.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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crumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex


Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1,459
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Re: Separateness and individuality [Re: Rose]
#7890574 - 01/16/08 09:54 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Cervantes said: And tonight... I'm dry. There's our problem.
Sad state of affairs. If I could psychically send my buzz, the world would be in epic peril. But if I could smoke with you, I'd do that too.
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