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Invisibledorkus
don't look back
Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 1,511
Hopelessness
    #7887170 - 01/16/08 03:19 AM (16 years, 16 days ago)

This quote talks about something that I have had to realize many times the last few years and probably still will for years to come since I've finally snuck it into 'my' cycle. The shift that occurs when the shift occurs can best be described as 'being naked' maybe? It's like being a sponge instead of straining on the muscles - emotional, mental or any al at all.

It's when you expect something that's when the difficulty happens. We are human beings and are conditioned to expect something. But little by little, if you can give up expectations, there is a wonderful thing right behind it. In a way it's like hopelessness. The Kannon or Chenrezig statue standing right here in our zendo has eleven faces surrounding its head. The front faces are pretty calm looking. But as you follow the faces around her, there are three foreboding faces. Actually, not three, but all of them are foreboding. Things that we may encounter within the path. She wears all those faces, those horrible, those foreboding faces as a crown on her head. She wears it as a crown because she knows that's it. Each one of us actually will be forced to recognize it because each of us is a human being whether we practice or not. When we die, get sick, we come to hopelessness.

So, the last three of the foreboding faces is devastation. I used to be so strong. I can do ten things. I can do everything. You know how that storyline goes. Then things become spare and slow and you may say I can't do it. I am sick or something. I have cancer. The last stage is hopelessness. You may have some serious illness and search to understand your illness. And then there comes a point when no one can tell you anything anymore. But the disease, or the imbalance lingers and you start giving up. We have to give up. And the idea is to kill a part of yourself. That hopelessness doesn't mean resignation. Doesn't mean the end. But it does mean the end of this perpetual thinking machine. Because it's reached an edge, a line. You can't do anything. You have to trust the process. It may be like feeling you won't be the same as you were before. But if you are anxious and worried it’s of no help. It's easy for me to say this, but I know what it's like. You have to give up. And when you give up: that's where it is. It's a whole new landscape.


Kwong-Roshi (SMZC Shambhala Drala Retreat)

http://www.smzc.net/pages/talksnew.html


Edited by dorkus (01/16/08 03:30 AM)


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OfflineAhimsa
µdose
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Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,827
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Re: Hopelessness [Re: dorkus]
    #7888549 - 01/16/08 03:04 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Do you mean that to try too hard is no good? And that it is better to do what you can. And to know what you can and can't? I guess that's what you mean or she.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Hopelessness [Re: dorkus]
    #7888746 - 01/16/08 03:44 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

dorkus said:
This quote talks about something that I have had to realize many times the last few years and probably still will for years to come since I've finally snuck it into 'my' cycle. The shift that occurs when the shift occurs can best be described as 'being naked' maybe? It's like being a sponge instead of straining on the muscles - emotional, mental or any al at all.

It's when you expect something that's when the difficulty happens. We are human beings and are conditioned to expect something. But little by little, if you can give up expectations, there is a wonderful thing right behind it. In a way it's like hopelessness. The Kannon or Chenrezig statue standing right here in our zendo has eleven faces surrounding its head. The front faces are pretty calm looking. But as you follow the faces around her, there are three foreboding faces. Actually, not three, but all of them are foreboding. Things that we may encounter within the path. She wears all those faces, those horrible, those foreboding faces as a crown on her head. She wears it as a crown because she knows that's it. Each one of us actually will be forced to recognize it because each of us is a human being whether we practice or not. When we die, get sick, we come to hopelessness.

So, the last three of the foreboding faces is devastation. I used to be so strong. I can do ten things. I can do everything. You know how that storyline goes. Then things become spare and slow and you may say I can't do it. I am sick or something. I have cancer. The last stage is hopelessness. You may have some serious illness and search to understand your illness. And then there comes a point when no one can tell you anything anymore. But the disease, or the imbalance lingers and you start giving up. We have to give up. And the idea is to kill a part of yourself. That hopelessness doesn't mean resignation. Doesn't mean the end. But it does mean the end of this perpetual thinking machine. Because it's reached an edge, a line. You can't do anything. You have to trust the process. It may be like feeling you won't be the same as you were before. But if you are anxious and worried it’s of no help. It's easy for me to say this, but I know what it's like. You have to give up. And when you give up: that's where it is. It's a whole new landscape.


Kwong-Roshi (SMZC Shambhala Drala Retreat)

http://www.smzc.net/pages/talksnew.html




Word.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibledorkus
don't look back
Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 1,511
Re: Hopelessness [Re: Ahimsa]
    #7896000 - 01/18/08 03:06 AM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Ahimsa said:
Do you mean that to try too hard is no good? And that it is better to do what you can. And to know what you can and can't? I guess that's what you mean or she.




not quite i think. so many people talk about having confidence. for me when i am confident it is based on games, built around or upon the subjectively imagined pros of my personality. these judgments are very much programmed into me by my enviroment. persona literally means mask. this is all based on identification with my own identity, judged on personal values stemming from that exact same identity or self-structure. i am looking at myself from the outside in. this goes for both low and high confidence for me, they react to eachother. Of course it is not either/or, but more like a scale.

ive only reached hopelessness through prolonged tormenting mindstates. when it happens it is something entirely different than being confident. there is no need for confidence then. the value and judgment is simply not there, and certainly not tied to an identification with who i believe myself to be. it is like being. everything starts floating. a constant, subtle, bubbling laughter from the belly gently tickling my heart. in my mind there come so many enlightening thoughts and patterns emerge without me trying to grasp. a sponge is not the best word as a sponge holds the water inside. radiohead might be better.

later i grasp again though. often because things are so different and i start thinking that all these co-incidences and revelations must mean i am special. well i am not, its just my own split mind in friction creating heat to burn myself out of the way for a moment and i have to go through those flames again.

so for me it is kinda opposite. when i think i am high i am low. when i think i am low i am high. but the more i live with different people and move around, the more i discover how everyone struggles no matter how they are able to display their masks.

i dont know if this is all because im fucked up and that the state ive fallen into some times is just what most people experience as ordinary life. i doubt that though, from the looks of things, but please let me know if this is so.

Maybe it would be possible to just shift it all right now from a more positive set of mind? Any input highly appreciated.


Edited by dorkus (01/18/08 05:00 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
Re: Hopelessness [Re: dorkus]
    #7896502 - 01/18/08 08:39 AM (16 years, 14 days ago)

when you get to the point that you can see these 10 heads,
the work that must be done,
amounts to gentle-ing and keeping your seat using principles of samatha (/vipassana) and the middle way.

I say when you get to the point, but the point is not a point, and not singular either.

fearsome alternatives are part of every point at all parts of the universe and in all beings,
just as bodhic faces are accessible aspects of all moments as well.
in fact the work to do is more like gardening than anything else, but
too many words
you already know
we have touched on it.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Offlinerizingfire
Mycoticus psychoticus
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 875
Loc: North-east USm'f'nA
Last seen: 4 months, 11 days
Re: Hopelessness [Re: redgreenvines]
    #7896552 - 01/18/08 08:51 AM (16 years, 14 days ago)

I don't think there is much that any of us can't do. What you believe you can and can't do sets the limits of what you can really do. I believe everyone here has what it takes to be a millionaire and everyone here can have anything they want, they just have to learn how to receive it!


--------------------
aka NHMI


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Hopelessness [Re: dorkus]
    #7896573 - 01/18/08 09:02 AM (16 years, 14 days ago)

I have found that hopelessness is a precursor to unconditional acceptance. Unconditional acceptance is a process that takes time due to the resiliency of old programs. It slowly gets easier but there are setbacks and all the rest. Life is lifelong and nothing is perfect.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Hopelessness [Re: rizingfire]
    #7896579 - 01/18/08 09:04 AM (16 years, 14 days ago)

everyone here can have anything they want,

Really? I want to be Superman and the King of the Universe so I can fix everything in my image.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (01/18/08 09:05 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
Re: Hopelessness [Re: Icelander]
    #7896896 - 01/18/08 10:32 AM (16 years, 14 days ago)

there is lots of goofy hoping around
hoping for things
hoping for non-things
hoping for whatever some other hoper hopes for...
hopless of all that is a good thing not a bad thing.
(we got really deep into that last year I think)

but one might miss the lightness of heart associated with hoping.

lightness of heart is better invigorated by humor instead of hoping:
so
silliness is the true remedy of hopelessness

and then (with a lighter heart)
it is much easier to get back to the business of bringing out the bodhi in everything around you.
kind of like gardening.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Hopelessness [Re: redgreenvines]
    #7897148 - 01/18/08 12:11 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Hoping without attachment.:thumbup:

Hoping because it brings one pleasure and satisfaction in the hope rather than the fruition, which is only temporary anyway.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibledorkus
don't look back
Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 1,511
Re: Hopelessness [Re: Icelander]
    #7904501 - 01/20/08 02:17 AM (16 years, 12 days ago)

Thanks guys. As always.


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