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InvisibleAnastomosisJihad
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More fun with Zero
    #7883642 - 01/15/08 02:18 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

It seems that zero is not a real number, because the word "zero" has no referent.

"1", "2", "pie", "square root of two" and "-.026" - Each of these refers to one of a class of metaphysical objects whose members include all and only those quantities on a continuum between nothing and infinity (negative numbers are positive quantities with negative direction). Like infinity, zero marks one end of the conceivable quantity spectrum.

Should the book ends be called books? Or are zero and infinity limits of the set, and not to be included in it?

Mathematicians say that zero is a real number, but infinity is not. What is their reasoning for this?


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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: More fun with Zero [Re: AnastomosisJihad]
    #7883673 - 01/15/08 02:26 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

You should review the number line.


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OfflineShroomieGirl
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Re: More fun with Zero [Re: AnastomosisJihad]
    #7883702 - 01/15/08 02:31 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

I always thought about stuff like this sitting in all those calc classes... In one way, yes, zero is a number. But if its being used as a limit on things (like if youre looking at it from 0->inf), then it doesnt really exist... you cant ever get there, but you can get infinitely close to it.
However, if you think about it as all numbers exist between negative infinity and infinity, then zero would be another number just like -9 or 5 or 2.
But saying it the way you do, like -9 is just 9 going the other direction, you can say 0-inf are the only real numbers, and since 0 doesnt have a negative it may not be real, but it is defined. Infinity is undefined.

Therefore Ill say it's real since its definable, but Ill also say you could argue the other way just as easily and Id probably agree with you as well.


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: More fun with Zero [Re: ShroomieGirl]
    #7883735 - 01/15/08 02:37 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Nice post! I used to think about this sometimes, whether 0 was a real number or an imaginary number.

Quote:

Therefore Ill say it's real since its definable, but Ill also say you could argue the other way just as easily and Id probably agree with you as well.




I agree.


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InvisibleSell Your Soul
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Re: More fun with Zero [Re: AnastomosisJihad]
    #7883739 - 01/15/08 02:39 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

It's all of matter of definition.
Historically, zero has meant the lack of any quantity.
If you're referring to numbers as being points on a number line,
then yes - zero is a number.


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InvisibleAnastomosisJihad
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Re: More fun with Zero [Re: ShroomieGirl]
    #7883814 - 01/15/08 02:53 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

it's real since its definable





The word "zero" is definable, and so has meaning or semantic weight, but , by definition, it refers to nothing, and therefore lacks a referent.

One could say certainly say that 0 refers a point on a number line, or the origin in a Cartesian coordinate system, but a continuum from negative infinity to positive infinity is really just two continuums butted up against each other, something akin to a ball falling toward the floor and bouncing back in the opposite direction. The ball's, acceleration changes signs from positive to negative but its motion is never less than no motion.


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OfflineShroomieGirl
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Re: More fun with Zero [Re: AnastomosisJihad]
    #7884011 - 01/15/08 03:29 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

I totally understand that, and do agree.

Also, when you bounce a ball, it never actually touches the ground... it just gets infinitely close. Same with everything else in the world (I would explain, but its been a few years since physics, and I dont want to say something stupid in the explaination... BUT it does make sense when explained, and it is true). Therefore, youre also right... 0 cannot be reached whatsoever.

Im not entirely sure, but i think the ball does stop for an instant tho... when it gets compressed right before it bounces back... all the energy is converted into kenetic energy as it compresses, and its spit back out again when it bounces back.


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: More fun with Zero [Re: AnastomosisJihad]
    #7884095 - 01/15/08 03:43 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

all zeros are not created equall, just as there are an infinite infinities


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OfflineLove Cap
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Re: More fun with Zero [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7884251 - 01/15/08 04:06 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Wait, so how exactly does that work? When you bounce a ball, doesn't it have to touch the ground to bounce?


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OfflineShroomieGirl
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Re: More fun with Zero [Re: Love Cap]
    #7884324 - 01/15/08 04:19 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

it does... its down at a molecular lvl where the charges or something repel the other object away from it, so they never touch. If they did touch, theyd fuse together.


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OfflineLove Cap
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Re: More fun with Zero [Re: ShroomieGirl]
    #7884756 - 01/15/08 05:39 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

shroomiegirl, that bong in your picture looks like my bong that my boyfriend just broke... :frown: it was the best bong i've ever owned!


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OfflineShroomieGirl
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Re: More fun with Zero [Re: Love Cap]
    #7884838 - 01/15/08 05:57 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

aww thats so sad!!

i gotta put my other one up there... its the best one ever. Its my not baby baby.

gimme a lil


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OfflineLove Cap
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Re: More fun with Zero [Re: ShroomieGirl]
    #7884989 - 01/15/08 06:28 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

is it a zong? thats what mine was. anyway, sorry for going off topic guys!

so i guess that's why different material don't bounce? do they not charge enough at the molecular level or something?


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OfflineShroomieGirl
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Re: More fun with Zero [Re: Love Cap]
    #7885159 - 01/15/08 06:59 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

no, neither is
the small one was just an impulse buy last time i was at the smokeshop w my friends, and the biggun is the 3ft vertical 3-chambered guy w a place for ice.


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:bouncysmoke:

I'm ok, really.


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OfflineLove Cap
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Re: More fun with Zero [Re: ShroomieGirl]
    #7885182 - 01/15/08 07:02 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

fuck yes. i guess it's just the paint at the bottom in the picture that reminds me of my past loved one... :/


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OfflineShroomieGirl
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Re: More fun with Zero [Re: Love Cap]
    #7885193 - 01/15/08 07:05 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

i have a pic of the smaller one (the one thats in my avatar) in my photo gallery... ive seen em around before, so i woudnt be suprised if its just like yours was


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: More fun with Zero [Re: Love Cap]
    #7885232 - 01/15/08 07:10 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

ha, i used to really like the zong company, twas my first bong


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Registered: 04/21/05
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Re: More fun with Zero [Re: AnastomosisJihad]
    #7886396 - 01/15/08 10:31 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Zero represents an empty set.


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InvisibleAnastomosisJihad
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Re: More fun with Zero [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7886413 - 01/15/08 10:35 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

But what exactly is an empty set?

Mathematicians have hypostasized nothing by drawing brackets around it.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: More fun with Zero [Re: AnastomosisJihad]
    #7886486 - 01/15/08 10:46 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

But what exactly is an empty set?




A set with nothing in it... like a bookshelf without any books on it.

Zero as an empty set I can understand. Zero as a number, I cannot fathom.


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Invisiblesleepy
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Re: More fun with Zero [Re: Love Cap]
    #7886672 - 01/15/08 11:30 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

first there was zero bongs, then there was one bong, now there are two halves of a bong


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Invisibledorkus
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yes they did sixtynine [Re: sleepy]
    #7886799 - 01/16/08 12:01 AM (16 years, 17 days ago)

"0 = 2" - Crowley

[image][/image]

Adam followed Eve and thus they separated light from dark and fell from Truth. Damn those evil women and their ways. :cool: Everything was so much better when all was within reach. Oh my god you're funny as hell today, eh?



Edited by dorkus (01/16/08 12:37 AM)


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Invisiblesleepy
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Re: More fun with Zero [Re: dorkus]
    #7886812 - 01/16/08 12:04 AM (16 years, 17 days ago)

infinity = everything

the number 3 = something

so the number 3 = infinity

the number 4 = something

so the number 4 = infinity

something = something

infinity = infinity

3=4


Edited by sleepy (01/16/08 12:05 AM)


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: More fun with Zero [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7886922 - 01/16/08 12:47 AM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Zero represents an empty set.




wrong wrong wrong

wrong

:nonono:

Quote:

Constructing surreal numbers

The basic idea behind the construction of surreal numbers is similar to Dedekind cuts. We construct new numbers by representing them with two sets of numbers, L and R, that approximate the new number; the set L contains a set of numbers below the new number and the set R contains a set of numbers above the new number. We will write such an approximation as { L | R }. We will pose no restrictions upon L and R except that each of the numbers in L should be smaller than any number in R. For example, { {1, 2} | {5, 8} } is a valid construction of a certain number between 2 and 5. (Which number exactly and why will be explained later on.) The sets are explicitly allowed to be empty. The informal interpretation of a pair { L | { } } will be "a number higher than any number in L", and of { { } | R } "a number lower than any number in R". This leads to the rule:




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surreal_numbers

but back to what i was saying

there are many zeros and and they are not all equal

just as the real numbers fill in the holes of the integers, there are yet other numbers (surreal for example) that fill in the real numbers

the real numbers seem solid, but there are holes, rather large ones

these holes are especially big when it comes to infinity and zero


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: More fun with Zero [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7886933 - 01/16/08 12:53 AM (16 years, 17 days ago)

This reminds me of a documentary about four mathematicians that did groundbreaking work, but suffered severely from all the paradoxes and new questions that emerged.



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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: More fun with Zero [Re: dorkus]
    #7887428 - 01/16/08 07:09 AM (16 years, 16 days ago)

excellent video ! :thumbup:

adjust: You mean there are different 'strong' zeros, like there are different 'big' infinities ?

I also see zero as a placeholder. Like nothingness gives possibility to something, zero gives room for numbers. The interesting thing is, that zero looses all relations for what it stands when it becomes zero (zero cows, zero water, zero trees,... all the same zero ?)
An eliminator and the foundation of existence (by giving room to something) at the same time ?


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineAhimsa
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Re: More fun with Zero [Re: AnastomosisJihad]
    #7888504 - 01/16/08 02:53 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Zero indicates what remains when all things are gone.
That make's zero a paradox.
Something to represent nothing is not nothing.
But that's just talk...

Zero is just an indication for the total absence of all things.
Infinity would then be just plain all!


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OfflineLove Cap
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Re: More fun with Zero [Re: Ahimsa]
    #7889649 - 01/16/08 06:47 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Isn't there a whole book about this guys? It's called 'zero' by Charles Seife


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InvisibleAnastomosisJihad
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Re: More fun with Zero [Re: Love Cap]
    #7889690 - 01/16/08 06:55 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Thanks! I'll have to read that book! I just checked and it is available at my library. :smile:


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OfflineLove Cap
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Re: More fun with Zero [Re: AnastomosisJihad]
    #7889884 - 01/16/08 07:36 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

awesome! enjoy! :peace:


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: More fun with Zero [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7896013 - 01/18/08 03:25 AM (16 years, 14 days ago)

im happy you liked it, friend.


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