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InvisiblePinkerton
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28379093 - 06/29/23 02:19 PM (6 months, 27 days ago)

There are more ways of getting into the moment than just meditating, right?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Pinkerton]
    #28379104 - 06/29/23 02:28 PM (6 months, 27 days ago)

list a few and I'll see


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InvisiblePinkerton
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28379765 - 06/30/23 05:17 AM (6 months, 26 days ago)

Not sure if I know any other ways. Do you?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Pinkerton]
    #28379769 - 06/30/23 05:22 AM (6 months, 26 days ago)

Not being sure is better than being wrong and certain.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28379771 - 06/30/23 05:23 AM (6 months, 26 days ago)

uncertainty helps with staying in the moment, while certainty is like an axe or mallet


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Pinkerton] * 2
    #28379829 - 06/30/23 06:40 AM (6 months, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Pinkerton said:
Not sure if I know any other ways. Do you?




It's a realization. Meditation "clears the table". The table IS the moment. But you're technically always in the moment. Where else would you be? Lost in thought?

Realization of the moment is habitual. You could try tying a string to your finger to remind you that you are in the moment.

Strong sensation pulls you into the moment. Nobody diving into a pool is thinking about whether they fed the hamster earlier.

Focus on hobbies tends to get a person out of their head.

Exercise
Taste of food
Hugs and smiles

Anything that makes you acutely aware of the present moment, where you are, what you're doing, how you feel. These are all things that are happening. Even thought is a happening. Awareness of thought can shift awareness from identification with thought (lost in thought) to seeing it as something that is happening to you, and you are "in the moment".

You are not your thoughts. You are not how you feel or what you're doing. You are the awareness, the thinker, the feeler, the doer. You are not your past or your future. You are the present moment.


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rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Rahz]
    #28379863 - 06/30/23 07:22 AM (6 months, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
...
You are not your thoughts. You are not how you feel or what you're doing. You are the awareness, the thinker, the feeler, the doer. You are not your past or your future. You are the present moment.



what if that is all you are?
I mean, the mental contents of the mind, on a moment to moment basis, are you anything other than that?

thoughts really includes all mental forms
which includes sensation and any perceptions or sequences of perception, including awareness which is the perceptions of what is happening.
so really,
are you sure you are not your thoughts?

I would tend to leave that as an open ended question.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28379998 - 06/30/23 09:50 AM (6 months, 26 days ago)

It's not that thought is an alien state of mind but that it can exclude everything else and can produce judgmental statements, fixations, attachment to temporary joy which leads to despair when it doesn't last.

All experience can be categorized as thought but generally speaking, when people describe thought they're talking about momentary linguistic thought... which in itself isn't a problem. The idea of being "lost" in thought is different that being the experiencer of thought.

The ability to concentrate through linguistic thought is valuable but the ability to let it go is equally valuable.

"A hand that can only close is only half a hand"


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Rahz]
    #28380014 - 06/30/23 10:04 AM (6 months, 26 days ago)

Let me ask you this
Quote:

Rahz said:
...
The idea of being "lost" in thought is different that being the experiencer of thought.





How is being lost in thought different from experiencing being lost in thought?


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28380189 - 06/30/23 01:01 PM (6 months, 26 days ago)

If you don't know you're holding something you can't let go of it.


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28380200 - 06/30/23 01:17 PM (6 months, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
If you don't know you're holding something you can't let go of it.



sure, but the question I had was
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Let me ask you this
Quote:

Rahz said:
...
The idea of being "lost" in thought is different that being the experiencer of thought.





How is being lost in thought different from experiencing being lost in thought?




holding and letting go are not in this question, are they?
it's crucially specific the way I posed it.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28380421 - 06/30/23 05:08 PM (6 months, 25 days ago)

The analogy is that if one sees they are the experiencer of thought they are not lost in it. That is different than having an experience of being lost in thought.

If one knows they are holding something, letting it go is an option.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Rahz]
    #28380471 - 06/30/23 05:47 PM (6 months, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
The analogy is that if one sees they are the experiencer of thought they are not lost in it. That is different than having an experience of being lost in thought.

If one knows they are holding something, letting it go is an option.



if one sees that they are experiencing thought, then one is experiencing seeing and thinking, both, and as things go, they are in a matter of seconds about to experience something else,
while awake they are always experiencing something,
and that means that the mind has mental contents,
and mental contents include what is being seen.

separate from that, the statement, being lost in thought has a value judgement, as if the thinking was taking you off your path or far away from home, and you are lost, or not being how you should be.

I would just say a person is thinking, and leave it at that.
Sometimes a person thinks that they are seeing themselves thinking, and this is kinda cool.
We are always thinking, but self reflection is always kinda cool.
(self reflection is still mental contents or thinking - we are not outside of our minds - we are our minds)


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28380501 - 06/30/23 06:28 PM (6 months, 25 days ago)

Trying not to get too strict with semantics, an experiencer of thought is not lost because they are aware there are many other things (thoughts included) that they can experience. They can ask, do I want to continue this line of thought?

As the experiencer of this conversation I can let it go. :tongue:


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #28380528 - 06/30/23 06:49 PM (6 months, 25 days ago)

yes you can have questions, they are thoughts or mental content too, and you may even take actions which also are perceptive reflexes, and they are mental contents too.

we established that reflective mental content feels like it has extra presence, which is due to having extra content from other channels, as you said eg. sense channels or associative content.

it is still thinking,
for some reason people think that meditating is not thinking, it's just more wide open.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28380560 - 06/30/23 07:17 PM (6 months, 25 days ago)

I thought we were past that.


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Rahz]
    #28380612 - 06/30/23 07:58 PM (6 months, 25 days ago)

but hey
if you are thinking that is one thing
if you are reflecting upon yourself thinking that is another
if you feel the contact in your body at the same time that is another
and if you are hearing the crickets that is another
and so on,
more presence, more channels getting into your experience
but experiencing still is thinking - a series of mental contents arising and passing away.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28381087 - 07/01/23 07:24 AM (6 months, 25 days ago)

Well like I said it's just a semantics issue. I don't believe people think meditating means no mental activity, though there is less as the mind calms. People often think they should have no linguistic thought and it can be very frustrating. "I can't do it!"


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Rahz]
    #28381092 - 07/01/23 07:29 AM (6 months, 25 days ago)

I think that the calm is more a matter of harmonious activity than less activity, i.e. a middle road levelling of activity


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28381114 - 07/01/23 08:03 AM (6 months, 25 days ago)

Fair enough, but I suspect that middle of the road is burning fewer calories than the stressed out mind.


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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