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OfflinePhred
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Loss of personal Liberties?
    #7872747 - 01/13/08 09:43 AM (16 years, 19 days ago)

This is a continuation of the discussion started here --

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=7872725&page=0&vc=1&PHPSESSID=#Post7872725

Redstorm's latest response in the original thread was:

Quote:

1. The government has upheld affirmative action in most cases, and is practiced in government hiring. It is therefore a government policy. I also don't see how I am not restricted. You must be kidding. My application is no longer based solely on my merit, and I am restricted from entrance that in a logical world (or one 20 years ago) I would have been granted.

2. This is inherently a government issue as it deals with government disbursement of funds to a private organization. Once again, I'm not sure how you can say this is not a restriction. I am being discriminated against by an organization which is receiving public funding. In any other case regarding anything but charity, this would be seen as an outrage.

The problem with your question is that it pigeon-holes his statement of the "Constitution down the toilet" and allows no reasonable answers. I'm not sure if you did it on purpose or not, but it is disingenuous.

All of the above are example of constitutional violations, regardless of whether or not they meet your question. Your question only gets to half of the issue. Constitutional issues not only involve things that we no longer can do, but outrages that are imposed upon us by the government.




My response to this will follow shortly.



Phred


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Loss of personal Liberties? [Re: Phred]
    #7872806 - 01/13/08 10:12 AM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

1. The government has upheld affirmative action in most cases, and is practiced in government hiring. It is therefore a government policy.




You are looking at this assbackwards. It is not that Congress ever passed legislation requiring businesses and organizations and universities to pick their students/workers/members by following a racial quota system, it is that the Supreme Court has ruled that (at least in certain situations), such a racial quota system must be permitted to the organizations in question. We can argue the wisdom of that ruling (I personally believe it was 100% wrong), but that doesn't change the fact that racial quotas for laws schools and universities and Gap stores were not imposed by legislative fiat. Unless you can point us to the piece of federal legislation which imposed such quotas, in which case I will abjectly apologize for my mistaken assumption, your argument holds no water.

These organizations (schools, businesses) implemented these practices on their own. And it must be noted that even with these school-imposed and business-imposed restrictions in place, it hasn't changed your liberty to apply for these positions. You are as free to apply for these positions today as you were 20 years ago.

Quote:

This is inherently a government issue as it deals with government disbursement of funds to a private organization. Once again, I'm not sure how you can say this is not a restriction. I am being discriminated against by an organization which is receiving public funding. In any other case regarding anything but charity, this would be seen as an outrage.




This again does not show government imposed these restrictions. These religious organizations have always had these restrictions. Roman Catholic charities refused to hire Satanists 20 years ago, too. If you as a Jew had tried to apply for a position with say, CAIR twenty years ago, they would have declined then as well.

Quote:

The problem with your question is that it pigeon-holes his statement of the "Constitution down the toilet" and allows no reasonable answers. I'm not sure if you did it on purpose or not, but it is disingenuous.




No. You are not understanding the original assertion. Here it is again --

Quote:

I am about one and a half years away from my BA in history.....if there is anything that I have learned from this experience, is that although somewhat more civilized this country has becomes, the (more) personal liberties are shitted upon, politicians simply look good for the camera, and your average citizen is so far removed/excluded from the political process....all the while causing the tax payers money and derailing our country as it was intended by our Founding Fathers. I deem the Constitution one of the most significant documents in human history....to bad we have flushed it down the drain.




While I agree that politicians and the Supreme Court have long ignored the Constitution, I cannot agree that the personal liberties of US citizens have been reduced to any significant degree since the draft was revoked in the early seventies.

When someone claims a "loss of personal liberties", it cannot mean anything other than the absence today of the right to legally perform some action that one was legally able to perform at some point in the past. If one never had that right in the first place (see gay marriage) then to categorize its continued absence today as a "loss" is ridiculous. It's NOT a loss.

Quote:

Constitutional issues not only involve things that we no longer can do, but outrages that are imposed upon us by the government.




That is an enormous difference. You may think I'm just piddling with semantics, but I am not. There is a HUGE difference between

-- loss of personal liberties

and

-- gain of imposed and unwanted obligations





Phred


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Loss of personal Liberties? [Re: Phred]
    #7872904 - 01/13/08 10:53 AM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Affirmative action is a horror from the sixties, way older than 20 years. It is actually being slowly chipped away, both through legislation and judicial action. Another example of the arrow pointing the wrong way for Redstorm


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Loss of personal Liberties? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7873101 - 01/13/08 11:58 AM (16 years, 19 days ago)

What court findings have chipped it away?


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Loss of personal Liberties? [Re: Phred]
    #7873135 - 01/13/08 12:08 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:


This again does not show government imposed these restrictions. These religious organizations have always had these restrictions. Roman Catholic charities refused to hire Satanists 20 years ago, too. If you as a Jew had tried to apply for a position with say, CAIR twenty years ago, they would have declined then as well.




No, but they allow the discrimination to occur without any condemnation. Any religious organization receiving public funding must either forfeit government aid or end discriminatory hiring practices. This is clearly a violation of the Establishment clause and is unconstitutional. The government is complicit in this breach by continuing to fund these organizations without placing restrictions on the money.

If the government was providing funding for an organization that was refusing to hire blacks, this wouldn't even be debatable. This is ridiculous, as both discrimination of race and creed are illegal in the public sector.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Loss of personal Liberties? [Re: Redstorm]
    #7873183 - 01/13/08 12:23 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
What court findings have chipped it away?




Here's one win:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratz_v._Bollinger

Most of it's destruction is legislative and through propositions. Nonetheless, it is LESS now than it was 20 years ago, not more.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Loss of personal Liberties? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7873211 - 01/13/08 12:35 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

It was only a partial victory, as its companion case upheld the use of AA for graduate admissions.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Loss of personal Liberties? [Re: Redstorm]
    #7873277 - 01/13/08 12:54 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Hence my use of the phrase "chipped away".


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Loss of personal Liberties? [Re: Redstorm]
    #7874083 - 01/13/08 04:12 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

No, but they allow the discrimination to occur without any condemnation.




Again, this does not represent a loss of personal liberties. I don't understand the difficulty you are having in grasping this. Twenty years ago if you as a Satanist had applied to work for a Roman Catholic charity, you would have been turned down. Today, same thing. You have not lost a thing -- you are exactly where you were twenty years ago. The failure to gain something is not equivalent to the loss of the thing.



Phred


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Loss of personal Liberties? [Re: Phred]
    #7874360 - 01/13/08 05:05 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Bullshit. Now my tax dollars go to supporting the same places that will not hire me due to my religious affiliation (or lack thereof).


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Loss of personal Liberties? [Re: Redstorm]
    #7874461 - 01/13/08 05:23 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

So the personal liberties you have lost consist entirely of control over where your tax dollars are spent. And this was different 20 years ago how?


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Loss of personal Liberties? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7874468 - 01/13/08 05:25 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

The main point is that I am being discriminated against by an organization that is publicly funded. Would the same organization be allowed to discriminate against someone based on their race rather than religion?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Loss of personal Liberties? [Re: Redstorm]
    #7874503 - 01/13/08 05:32 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

They wouldn't take you then, they won't take you now. No change. You had no control over where your tax dollars were spent 20 years ago, and you don't now. No change.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Loss of personal Liberties? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7874767 - 01/13/08 06:31 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

There is a change in that their hiring process should be held to a higher scrutiny considering they are receiving federal money, while they weren't before.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Loss of personal Liberties? [Re: Redstorm]
    #7874804 - 01/13/08 06:38 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

I gotta go find a wall


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Loss of personal Liberties? [Re: Redstorm]
    #7874970 - 01/13/08 07:09 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Absolutely agree.

Public funding of a religious organization that is going to only dole out those funds to people, via wages or direct handouts, who are members of that organization's religion is completely wrong and I don't see how anyone can defend it.


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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Loss of personal Liberties? [Re: Phred]
    #7875376 - 01/13/08 08:05 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

1. Handgun ownership within city limits (like Chicago)....call it a state law whatever......the Feds have done nothing to protect this.....but I will admit the Supreme Court FINALLY will hear a case in regards to the 2nd Amendment. For a direct federal prohibition I would like to add here the Brady bill.(in particular ammunition)



2. Smoking in privately owned places. Here again this could be considered a state issue, however, the federal government should see this as a huge reach of the 10th Amendment.

3. Airports. Several items cannot be taken aboard or transported compared to years past. This is federally mandated....I know its a cheap referance, but fuck, what if I need 5oz of Scope to hide my bad breath? :tongue:


I will admit that personal liberties in the last thirty years haven't changed to much, per your other post. However, they are askew to what the Founding Fathers intended since the formation of the Union. Those are three of the top of my head, but Social Security (past your timelimit) is total  bullshit. I should be able to voluntarily withdrawal and invest how I see fit. I think you would agree on this, Phred.


I guess most of the breaches occur at the State level, with no just federal intervention.....


Edited by SirTripAlot (01/13/08 08:51 PM)


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OfflineMrBump
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Re: Loss of personal Liberties? [Re: Phred]
    #7876032 - 01/13/08 09:54 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

the Kelo Case expanded the government's right to seize property, not only for "public good" uses like the building of highways or bridges, but also to seize property that may provide economic development and expansion (i.e.: take from the private citizen and give to corporate interests which promise the possibility of higher tax revenues generated from the property)

Jose Padilla, a US citizen, obviously lost his right to habeas corpus for some time.


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If it weren't for the bloody corpses, I wouldn't have any corpses at all.

There are two ways to get to the top of an oak tree: start climbing or sit on an acorn.

Are you a carrot, an egg, or a coffee bean?


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