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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Why fear having your ideas examined?
#7872381 - 01/13/08 05:12 AM (16 years, 19 days ago) |
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If they have merit, no amount of scrutiny or counterpoint will undermine them.
If they have no merit, they will be easily deconstructed and then they can be discarded in favor of ideas with more substance.
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idreamofpiggies
I'm Da Moon!!!



Registered: 06/15/07
Posts: 163
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
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That's exactally right, lots of people refuse to even examine objectively them in their own minds let alone let others check their worth.
-------------------- Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. - marianne williamson What I do nobody notices... Till it stops - Garry Talent on the Bass.
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jonathanseagull
Cool!


Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 993
Last seen: 10 years, 11 days
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Being a zealot can go both ways and are both based in fear.
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate



Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
Last seen: 3 days, 19 hours
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For me personally, I'm often afraid to express my ideas because I have a false sense of self tied up in them, and I am afraid that judgment of my ideas = judgment of my self. This premise is flawed and I am working on developing better concepts and discarding premises which are egocentric.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'


Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
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Re: Why fear having your ideas examined? [Re: Lion]
#7873221 - 01/13/08 12:38 PM (16 years, 19 days ago) |
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Right on Lion, it's awesome that you've been able to identify and face up to that!
Criticism of an idea does not equal criticism of the idea holder as a person. Hell, half my family are JW's and I still love them. Thier bad ideas do not detract from thier kindness, sincerity and honesty. Any reasonable person is willing to accept that great people can have weak/poor ideas. One is not a reflecton of the other.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Why fear having your ideas examined? [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7873558 - 01/13/08 02:18 PM (16 years, 19 days ago) |
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Dems iz sum gud replize!
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AnastomosisJihad
Hominid



Registered: 01/01/08
Posts: 700
Loc: Ohio
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Re: Why fear having your ideas examined? [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7873628 - 01/13/08 02:35 PM (16 years, 19 days ago) |
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No idea can escape Pyrrhonian skepticism, not logic, or math, nor even observation sentences like "red here now!" It is impossible to 'prove' anything in the strongest sense of the word, so the choice to call a statement true always involves some guess work.
Some, like Pyrrho, try to believe nothing at all in order to avoid being duped into believing something false, but this exercise in radical intellectual honesty is soon scuttled by the pragmatic need to believe things like where the toilet is.
For others, the chance to be right about big important beliefs, is more important than the chance of being duped into false belief. They make a decision to stop questioning certain things, call them either true or false, and get on with life. Basic beliefs like the reliability of the senses, trust in logics, or trust in a loving God form the anchor points for a persons web of belief.
Nobody likes to question their anchor beliefs, because a person's entire mode of life depends on them. Loose too many anchors, and the entire web of belief collapses in on itself, leading one back into a state of Pyrrhonian skepticism, which is untenable. The believer is aware that some of his anchors might be sunk into rotten wood or brittle shale, but a handful of possibly good anchors is better than no anchor at all.
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Visionary Tools



Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 7,953
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
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This is easy:
You have opinions. It took you some time to form them, and they make you happy. Further research is not a priority, because you know you already like those opinions, so why challenge them?
It's complacency and arrogance.
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AnastomosisJihad
Hominid



Registered: 01/01/08
Posts: 700
Loc: Ohio
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Re: Why fear having your ideas examined? [Re: Visionary Tools]
#7874320 - 01/13/08 04:56 PM (16 years, 19 days ago) |
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There are more reasons than complacency and arrogance for leaving a belief unchallenged. An accountant would be foolish to question his belief that zero is a real number.
edit
Or that 1/(1/2) = 2
Edited by AnastomosisJihad (01/13/08 05:13 PM)
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea


Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Theres a difference between having your idea's examined and a constant bitter attack of idea's.
I don't think anyone here fears having there idea's examined. What they dislike is people persistently telling them they are wrong instead of engaging in a progressive philosophical discussion.
Philosophy is not a hate campaign. Its a discussion of ideas.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
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Re: Why fear having your ideas examined? [Re: Ego Death]
#7875054 - 01/13/08 07:23 PM (16 years, 19 days ago) |
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Incorrect. Philosophy is "the love of knowledge" and it is intrinsically related to making use or reason and logic. That being said, if the ideas presented have logical inadequacies, the other is free to point them out. This is imperative to happen if one's pursue is to make the conversation fruitful and meaningful.
Also I would like to point out to you that it's incorrect to say "your idea's" "there idea's".
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Re: Why fear having your ideas examined? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7875080 - 01/13/08 07:27 PM (16 years, 19 days ago) |
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Actually, philosophy is "the love of wisdom." Might seem like a nitpick but I think it's clear that knowledge and wisdom are two different things. The two root words are "philo" meaning love and "sophia" meaning wisdom. If I didn't point this out, I would make a bad philosophy major
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
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Quote:
wis·dom (wĭz'dəm) Pronunciation Key n.
1. The ability to discern or judge what is true, right, or lasting; insight. 2. Common sense; good judgment: "It is a characteristic of wisdom not to do desperate things" (Henry David Thoreau). 3. 1. The sum of learning through the ages; knowledge: "In those homely sayings was couched the collective wisdom of generations" (Maya Angelou). 2. Wise teachings of the ancient sages.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Re: Why fear having your ideas examined? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7875158 - 01/13/08 07:38 PM (16 years, 19 days ago) |
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That is indeed the definition of wisdom 
Just sharing a little knowledge as to the real meaning of the word philosophy.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
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Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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I perfectly understood and I appreciate that.  The reason why I gave the definition of wisdom is because I wanted to keep things clear for everybody regarding the meaning of this word.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Re: Why fear having your ideas examined? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7875197 - 01/13/08 07:44 PM (16 years, 19 days ago) |
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Ah, I see
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: Why fear having your ideas examined? [Re: Lion]
#7875941 - 01/13/08 09:39 PM (16 years, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Lion said: For me personally, I'm often afraid to express my ideas because I have a false sense of self tied up in them, and I am afraid that judgment of my ideas = judgment of my self. This premise is flawed and I am working on developing better concepts and discarding premises which are egocentric.
The same not only goes for my views and opinions, but also my experiences...
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea


Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Re: Why fear having your ideas examined? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7877204 - 01/14/08 06:55 AM (16 years, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
Incorrect. Philosophy is "the love of knowledge" and it is intrinsically related to making use or reason and logic.
Of course, I was talking about philosophy in the context we have here. Here we share and debate our "wisdom". If we didn't not talk here then there would be no wisdom to love.
Obviously I didn't make that clear enough for you.
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mushbaby
woodswalker




Registered: 09/30/06
Posts: 2,645
Loc: in my own lil world
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Sometimes it just isn't easy to express ideas. Especially ideas about the "big" questions in life.
Also some of (my beliefs at least) the beliefs a person has are due to experiences in their lives that maybe the person they are having the discussion with has never experienced.
It can make a difference. It would be like explaining algebra to a first grader. There's a few things that need to be learned before it would make sense. So how fruitful would that conversation be?
I swear I am not implying anyone here is less than intelligent. THat's the best analogy I could come up with.
Edited by mushbaby (01/14/08 09:20 PM)
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: Why fear having your ideas examined? [Re: mushbaby]
#7881324 - 01/15/08 12:27 AM (16 years, 18 days ago) |
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Right on mushbaby, I think the major difference between materialists and mystics is simply what we have experienced, which only we ourselves can examine.
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Veritas


Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Why fear having your ideas examined? [Re: Middleman]
#7882530 - 01/15/08 10:23 AM (16 years, 17 days ago) |
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Or how you have interpreted your experiences. From the conversations I have had with both "materialists" and "mystics," I have gathered that their experiences were actually quite similar. What varies appears to be the meaning or explanation they assign to their experiences, as well as the level of critical thinking applied to understanding and integrating what they interpret.
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Love Cap
Wanderer



Registered: 09/16/07
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Re: Why fear having your ideas examined? [Re: Veritas]
#7882814 - 01/15/08 11:15 AM (16 years, 17 days ago) |
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I think that 'materialists' and 'mystics' should open up and find the similarities between the ideas, like you are saying! I think the more balance we have between the two, we'd of more understanding of it all. Do you consider your experiences real? If so, you can't prove them, but that doesn't make them not real does it? That's the problem with expressing your ideas and having them examined, because not everyone has had the same experience. But I think experience is just as real and what we see as 'reality'.
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Veritas


Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Why fear having your ideas examined? [Re: Love Cap]
#7882897 - 01/15/08 11:25 AM (16 years, 17 days ago) |
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Well, the only reason that having your interpretations of your experiences examined would be a problem is if you are certain that your interpretation is representative of factual reality. 
If one is able to say "I definitely experienced something, but I'm not certain of the factual nature of this event. My BEST GUESS is __________," then there would be no need to take offense at the challenges of others to one's best guess.
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Love Cap
Wanderer



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Re: Why fear having your ideas examined? [Re: Veritas]
#7883009 - 01/15/08 11:45 AM (16 years, 17 days ago) |
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No shit, but does anyone else in here think that those out of body experiences are just as real and this reality?!
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Veritas


Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Why fear having your ideas examined? [Re: Love Cap]
#7883037 - 01/15/08 11:51 AM (16 years, 17 days ago) |
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Yes, some people probably do think so. What I am proposing is that an insistence that they KNOW so is counterproductive to discussion. There is nothing to fear from examination of one's ideas. The philosophical challenges offered by others cannot harm you, and engaging in an active discussion might even aid you in refining your interpretation of your experiences.
The aspects of reality which can be repeatably verified can be tentatively called "real." Everything else is "best guess."
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mushbaby
woodswalker




Registered: 09/30/06
Posts: 2,645
Loc: in my own lil world
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Re: Why fear having your ideas examined? [Re: Veritas]
#7887394 - 01/16/08 06:48 AM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: Or how you have interpreted your experiences. From the conversations I have had with both "materialists" and "mystics," I have gathered that their experiences were actually quite similar. What varies appears to be the meaning or explanation they assign to their experiences, as well as the level of critical thinking applied to understanding and integrating what they interpret.
I can agree with this. Maybe this is why we should allow people to walk their own path. I feel we are here to learn something. I believe there is a bigger picture. So of course people at different levels can go through the same exact experience and get something different out of it.
While I don't object to people asking questions and do my best to answer I don't think anyone can deny that sometimes in this forum the Q&A can feel a little like gang rape.
When there are 5 people doggedly attacking the ideas of 1 person it can feel a little overwhelming. Sometimes a person is ready to face it and sometimes they aren't.
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druglord
Stranger
Registered: 01/14/07
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...because even if they have merit, they are inevitably simplifications that will prove inadequate to the enlightened mind.
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Veritas


Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Why fear having your ideas examined? [Re: mushbaby]
#7887659 - 01/16/08 09:33 AM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Sometimes a person is ready to face it and sometimes they aren't.
This is why we have TWO forums which cover the same subjects. If someone is truly not ready to face the experience of rigorous debate, they can post the same ideas/experiences/interpretations in M&P.
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Apollyphelion
Dungeon Master/Princess(1009)


Registered: 03/15/07
Posts: 16,757
Loc: Festival of Deaths
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The question is, why fear having your ideas garnered from experiences examined and scrutinized if they are nothing more then an arrangement and grouping of neurons that may or may not follow a mathmatical equation.
It's like having an emotinal attachment to a grain of sand! Sand exists and the Atoms that compose your neurology (and sand) exists. Why have attachments to Atoms? They create everything else! It is like having an emotinal attachment to an emotional attachment. Could you detach yourself from the neurological arrangment that attaches you to certain things? But wouldn't that idea come from an idea, thus coninuing the loop of a near limitless possiblity of infinitley connecting neuropathways?
The most important neurological arrangements I would like to identify would be that of: Prasing what I have to say, Mocking what I have to say.
Wouldn't that be cool? Conversation merely just evolves into literal representations of the neurons, putting all your feelings, thoughts, and experiences on display, to be objectivly scrutinized?
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"I'm looking at you looking at it" SUBSCRIBE TO MY YOUTUBE CHANNEL PLEASE! www.youtube.com/apollyphelion Creator of the World's Worst Comic Book
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Why fear having your ideas examined? [Re: Veritas]
#7887684 - 01/16/08 09:47 AM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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I can handle rigorous debate, but not this:
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Apollyphelion
Dungeon Master/Princess(1009)


Registered: 03/15/07
Posts: 16,757
Loc: Festival of Deaths
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What do you mean? Didn't mean to offend, if I did!
There is only a few emoticons which I am sure of there context within this site
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"I'm looking at you looking at it" SUBSCRIBE TO MY YOUTUBE CHANNEL PLEASE! www.youtube.com/apollyphelion Creator of the World's Worst Comic Book
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mushbaby
woodswalker




Registered: 09/30/06
Posts: 2,645
Loc: in my own lil world
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Re: Why fear having your ideas examined? [Re: Veritas]
#7887864 - 01/16/08 11:08 AM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Quote:
Sometimes a person is ready to face it and sometimes they aren't.
This is why we have TWO forums which cover the same subjects. If someone is truly not ready to face the experience of rigorous debate, they can post the same ideas/experiences/interpretations in M&P.
You are right. I post in both.
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mushbaby
woodswalker




Registered: 09/30/06
Posts: 2,645
Loc: in my own lil world
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: I can handle rigorous debate, but not this:
Too funny. I don't think I've used it solely as a response to someone in this forum, but I actually love that one.
(might be the tongue)
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Why fear having your ideas examined? [Re: mushbaby]
#7888050 - 01/16/08 12:25 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
You are right. I post in both.
I long suspected you went both ways.
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mushbaby
woodswalker




Registered: 09/30/06
Posts: 2,645
Loc: in my own lil world
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Aw but I'm very selective.
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crumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex


Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: Why fear having your ideas examined? [Re: mushbaby]
#7888130 - 01/16/08 12:50 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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People don't like to have their ideas examined because they build their lives on those ideas, and they build their identities on those ideas. Once you get too far invested into an idea, you can't really change your mind on it without a slurry of negative effects.
It would seem ultimately rational to change your mind about something when new or better information is arrived at, but this isn't really how any public person can operate. Philosophers (the paid ones who write books) rarely, if ever, change their minds about something, because it then invalidates their previous writings. No one wants a politician who changes his mind, as anyone who's heard the context around the words "Waffling" and "Flip-Flopping" over the last decade or so.
If you give any stock to Jungian psychology or personality types, I think this relates the the Percieving/Judging function, and which is stronger within a person. P personality types make good thinkers and experimenters, but suck at sitting down and actually making a choice or a qualitative judgement. J types can make decisions and stick to them, which is handy in a number of arenas, but have difficulty seeing viewpoints outside the one they've settled on.
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mushbaby
woodswalker




Registered: 09/30/06
Posts: 2,645
Loc: in my own lil world
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Re: Why fear having your ideas examined? [Re: crumblebum]
#7888150 - 01/16/08 12:55 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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But part of life is growing and maturing. No one is right all the time.
And I think you can change your mind without too many problems.
Guess you can tell I am a perceiver.
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Love Cap
Wanderer



Registered: 09/16/07
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Re: Why fear having your ideas examined? [Re: mushbaby]
#7888260 - 01/16/08 01:27 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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I agree mushbaby, I think I'm a perceiver too... one thing, it's a lot easier to be persuaded or have your mind changed when the person makes their points clearly and respectively, if not, they're hard to listen to.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
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Re: Why fear having your ideas examined? [Re: Love Cap]
#7888280 - 01/16/08 01:33 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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'Respectively' as in precisely the order given? What does that mean?
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Love Cap
Wanderer



Registered: 09/16/07
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pretty much like 'i see what you're sayin, but what about this...' instead of just being a bitch about it trying to make you sound dumb or something! you know what i mean? I can respect one's opinions more if they seem respectable!
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Why fear having your ideas examined? [Re: Love Cap]
#7888310 - 01/16/08 01:41 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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One can only make one's self sound dumb such as when using the incorrect word.
'Respectively' means exactly what I stated and has nothing to do with being sensitive to the other poster's feelings.
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Love Cap
Wanderer



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not exactly.
respectively
1. In a relative manner; often used in lists, to clearly indicate that two (or more) separate lists correspond to each other, in terms of order.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
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Re: Why fear having your ideas examined? [Re: Love Cap]
#7888357 - 01/16/08 02:00 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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So where does the 'being a bitch' part come into play?
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crumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex


Registered: 04/24/07
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While it's true that we grow and mature, we usually do so by choosing an idea and following it to it's conclusion, or a set of ideas, usually provided by our culture in one way or another.
It's that very process of growth and maturation that makes it difficult to examine ideas. If we build things in a foundational fashion, a threat to one of the elements of the foundation (an idea) threatens everything built on it as a foundation.
Money, for example, is a bad idea, in my opinion. But for the life of me, I can envision a society that would function very long without it, because I've been immersed in a society that revolves around it and couldn't survive without it. If the whole of society really, really examined the concept of money, we'd be rationally obliged to abandon it, which could subsequently lead to the society falling apart.
Might something better emerge because of it? Yes, but there'd be a lot of fires, riots, and dead bodies inbetween here and there.
Switching from the macrocosm to the microcosm, if you've spent the last twenty years of your life A. doing charity work B. making money, then it's psychologically dangerous for you to examine in too much detail whether A. it really does any good to help others or B. money is really worth it. These are what spawn midlife crises and mental breakdowns.
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ReoSpeedwagon153


Registered: 02/04/06
Posts: 2,098
Loc: Chetumal, Mexico
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Maybe she meant 'respectfully'
-------------------- “I thought naming myself ‘ReoSpeedwagon153’ on a forum was a funny idea in 2006.”
Edited by ReoSpeedwagon153 (01/16/08 03:27 PM)
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Ahimsa
µdose



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Maybe i depend too much upon my ideas. Because i only have a few and i need them as they are. To change them would be too radical a thing.
That could be a reason why to fear having your ideas examined i think.
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mushbaby
woodswalker




Registered: 09/30/06
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Re: Why fear having your ideas examined? [Re: crumblebum]
#7888551 - 01/16/08 03:05 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
crumblebum said:
It's that very process of growth and maturation that makes it difficult to examine ideas. If we build things in a foundational fashion, a threat to one of the elements of the foundation (an idea) threatens everything built on it as a foundation.
I have to respectfully disagree with you here. This would go to building your foundation on sand vs. stone. If a person doesn't examine what they are building their life upon how would they know if their foundation could withstand the storms of life?
In keeping with this analogy even builders can skillfully remove parts of a foundation that have deteriorated without causing the whole structure to fall.
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Love Cap
Wanderer



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Well, instead of actually sharing ideas with the person... going the route of trying to act like your ideas are superior; to me, that is 'being a bitch' about it. in other words, immature.
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Epigallo
Stranger
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did you know I used to be a treasure troll?
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story



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-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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crumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex


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Re: Why fear having your ideas examined? [Re: mushbaby]
#7890563 - 01/16/08 09:51 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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Within the foundationalism model, as you said, some skilled builders can rebuild screwed up foundations, and less skilled builders will destroy the building. However, the strength of these blocks is measured not by their truth, but by how strongly you can believe them. What is truth, after all? Obviously it helps to hold to ideas that aren't aggressively wethered by your community or by the physical world, but not really by truth, per se. If you want to believe that an invisible being in the sky split itself into three entities and killed it's child/self to absorb all the badness in the world and then got self same son back, it helps if everyone else believes likewise. And it's a damned handy thing to be able to believe! It answers a lot of good questions. Why am I here? To make an eternal parent figure happy. How do I do that? Well, wing it mostly, and just apologize to this one guy frequently, and everything will be fine. I know I say this in a format that makes it seem like I'm mocking it, but I really just mean to provide contrast. I bow to a little elephant headed guy, and give pennies to his aunt. As a phil major, I'm one of like, 20, at a college of 8,000, alongside about 10 religous studies majors. And that's fine. There are cases of just genuinely dumb people, and then there are people who just don't feel like making an issue of the eternal and the real meaning of truth and the true root of happiness and the ignore feature on the Shoomery forums. Instead, they figure out what dosage of antibiotics I need to not die. Or how much butter to use when cooking (hint: it's a lot).
I still fall back on the J/P function thing, basically. Js have the ability to set down a foundation and believe it strongly, and so build a more consise and purposeful structure, and Ps can entertain a number of ideas but have trouble dedicating themselves to a particular one.
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