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SuchSmartMonkeys
mycologically driven individual



Registered: 10/26/05
Posts: 1,154
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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casing material q?
#7870454 - 01/12/08 07:20 PM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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okay, for my first casing, i plan on using a mix i've read about: 5 parts coir (Fine), 4 parts vermiculite (Medium), 1 part Gypsum (Fine). Adjusting for the gypsum, this seems like a bit much, but my question is how do i need to make this sterile? pressure cooking/autoclaving work, or should i pasteurize it? and if it's pasteurization, what would be the best method for doing such things(i've pasteurized straw before, but this seems like it'd be a little harder to contain, just the same way, but put it in a pillow case or something) ?
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thedefone
deus ex machina

Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 1,883
Loc: Gondwana
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Not sure what the gypsum in the casing would do, but anyway.. You will get differing opinions on whether to sterilize or pasteurize your casing. If you want to pasteurize you will hear a lot of people steer you away from the pillowcase style because it leeches nutrients, but I suppose for a casing that might not be so bad. If you are going to sterilize that is fine too... some people swear by it.
I have always used pillowcase style in the past, but yesterday, I did some casing in jars, and it seemed to dry out more than I expected it would. Do either. Doesn't matter, I suppose...
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I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.
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flavoraid
now with twicethe ketamine andopiates!


Registered: 12/05/07
Posts: 1,678
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Re: casing material q? [Re: thedefone]
#7870590 - 01/12/08 07:47 PM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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gypsum is to raise the pH so bacteria has a hard time growing.
if you sterilize that's cool a lot of the nutrients will be lost but as far as I know coir isn't very nutrient rich? verm and gypsum have no nutrients at all. casings are only like 1/4-1/2" deep for the sake of moisture. which is why you don't need 90+% RH if you have a casing.
-------------------- coda said: imachavel, Man you really need to do some reading, the amount of bullshit you put into almost every single one of your posts is absolutely astounding.
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Blutjager
Inhuman


Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 9,220
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Re: casing material q? [Re: flavoraid]
#7870741 - 01/12/08 08:20 PM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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Coir is quite rich in nutrients and that is why it makes such a good bulk substrate,its prone to overlay when used in a casing layer.
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dumbfounded1600
Stranger

Registered: 07/29/07
Posts: 2,624
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Re: casing material q? [Re: Blutjager]
#7870932 - 01/12/08 09:03 PM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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Coir is not a good casing material as it harbors nutrients and does not pin well...Peat/Verm/Lime....if you add the lime you don't even have to heat treat it when using peat/verm as a casing as peat is acidic..heh
And lime is NOT contam friendly so thats a plus
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thedefone
deus ex machina

Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 1,883
Loc: Gondwana
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Quote:
gypsum is to raise the pH so bacteria has a hard time growing.
Gypsum sucks in this regard, in as far as casings are concerned. Gypsum is a primarily a buffering agent, in my understanding, and will only impact pH over the long term. Also, I am not going to advise you to skip pasteurization or sterilization when using lime. There is no harm in employing these steps, and there definitely is harm in cutting corners.
Quote:
but as far as I know coir isn't very nutrient rich?
You don't know very far. But, Hey! Neither do I. What I do know is that coir makes an excellent bulk substrate, so obviously it is plenty nutritious. Ask anyone here, or here. Another thing I know, is that that nutrition is what makes it a less than ideal casing, because the mycelium will sometimes over colonize the casing, reducing it's ability to retain moisture.
Quote:
casings are only like 1/4-1/2" deep for the sake of moisture. which is why you don't need 90+% RH if you have a casing.
What I've read is that your casing should be one quarter the depth of your substrate, for best results. High RH is always ideal too. Casings will protect your sub from swings in humidity, but you should always aim to keep your RH in the +95% range.
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I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.
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dumbfounded1600
Stranger

Registered: 07/29/07
Posts: 2,624
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Re: casing material q? [Re: thedefone]
#7871171 - 01/12/08 09:59 PM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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some species of mushrooms wont even grow if there casing is heat treated
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thedefone
deus ex machina

Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 1,883
Loc: Gondwana
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Some may not, but cubes aren't one of them.
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I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.
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DJYoshaBYD


Registered: 04/07/07
Posts: 2,405
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if you raise the ph, then you wont really have to worry about contams unless you are real unsterile in your tek... be clean, and raise the ph and you should not have to worry.. lots of cats use coir as bulk, apparently with good results without sterilizing the shit out of it..
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thedefone
deus ex machina

Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 1,883
Loc: Gondwana
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Re: casing material q? [Re: DJYoshaBYD]
#7871215 - 01/12/08 10:09 PM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
be clean, and raise the ph and you should not have to worry..
Always true. Anyway, sterilizing bulks has to be a pain in the ass. But I have half-assed the pasteurization of it (bulk) and felt the pain. But, then again, I am using coir intended for uses other than reptile bedding, and that is treated with trichodermia, to aid plant growth. So, I think that it would be good practice to pasteurize that stuff (not reptile stuff) for that reason alone.
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I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.
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DJYoshaBYD


Registered: 04/07/07
Posts: 2,405
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Re: casing material q? [Re: thedefone]
#7871248 - 01/12/08 10:18 PM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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true.. huge kick in the keister.. but at least pasteurize... its worth it.. cats say you dont need to sterilize vermiculite for casing because it has no nutes.. but that doesnt mean in doesnt carry spores... so I sterilize anyway... everything carries spores that will fuck your grow.. including you.. just be clean, and you will have a blast growing these lil fuckers.. Ive been addicted to growing these, indoor and outdoor, since I was 14.. Im 23 now... just keep working till you perfect you method...
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SuchSmartMonkeys
mycologically driven individual



Registered: 10/26/05
Posts: 1,154
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: casing material q? [Re: DJYoshaBYD]
#7879359 - 01/14/08 05:22 PM (16 years, 18 days ago) |
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okay, sounds like i was going down a bad path with that one....what i would like to do is go from rye spawn to a bulk substrate in pans, then case that for fruiting. Does anyone have recommendations for bulk substrates and casing layers? it sounds like i kind of got the 2 mixed up, and partially combined...
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Blutjager
Inhuman


Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 9,220
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Substrate of choice for me= Coir
Casing of choice for me= MGMC
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The shroomy 1
Luminous beings surround me




Registered: 03/27/07
Posts: 5,543
Loc: The Aether
Last seen: 5 months, 5 days
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Re: casing material q? [Re: thedefone]
#7879611 - 01/14/08 06:17 PM (16 years, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
thedefone said:
Quote:
be clean, and raise the ph and you should not have to worry..
Always true. Anyway, sterilizing bulks has to be a pain in the ass. But I have half-assed the pasteurization of it (bulk) and felt the pain. But, then again, I am using coir intended for uses other than reptile bedding, and that is treated with trichoderma, to aid plant growth. So, I think that it would be good practice to pasteurize that stuff (not reptile stuff) for that reason alone.
Are you serious! Coir treated with trichoderma! I just lost a bulk grow to trichoderma! When I tossed it, I noticed that it was throughout the entire center of the coir. I did pasteurize. Maybe not long enough though, but if I'm dealing with coir treated with trichoderma, maybe I should be sterilizing instead! I feel like a dumb ass. Lot's of work gone to waste.
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AMU Q&A thread.
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Blutjager
Inhuman


Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 9,220
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I vote the shroomery as a whole should band together and burn to the ground any building where anyone is treating anything with trich
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The shroomy 1
Luminous beings surround me




Registered: 03/27/07
Posts: 5,543
Loc: The Aether
Last seen: 5 months, 5 days
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Re: casing material q? [Re: Blutjager]
#7879698 - 01/14/08 06:33 PM (16 years, 18 days ago) |
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Amen Brother! I'm with you on this one!
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AMU Q&A thread.
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SuchSmartMonkeys
mycologically driven individual



Registered: 10/26/05
Posts: 1,154
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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to coir or not to coir then? it sounds like its good to some and full of trich to others? do i want to sterilize or pasterurize the coir? what about the MGMC?
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fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: casing material q? [Re: thedefone]
#7888377 - 01/16/08 02:11 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
thedefone said: I am using coir intended for uses other than reptile bedding, and that is treated with trichodermia, to aid plant growth. So, I think that it would be good practice to pasteurize that stuff (not reptile stuff) for that reason alone.
Trich doesn't aid plant growth. It's highly doubtful that anyone is treating coir with anything, especially trich.
-FF
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DJYoshaBYD


Registered: 04/07/07
Posts: 2,405
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Re: casing material q? [Re: fastfred]
#7888457 - 01/16/08 02:37 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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for real.. trich is parasitic... it will feed off the plant, not help it.. I have grown hydroponic "tomatos" many a time, and the only thing like that that helps, is Alg A Mix.. which is an algae extract with kelp...
nothing is treated with trich purposely, because trich is all bad... at least to my knowledge, nothing is treated with it... if you raise your ph and colonize quickly, then you have no contams to worry about.. a fully colonized substrate is one of the best defence's against contams.. along with just being clean in general...
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thedefone
deus ex machina

Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 1,883
Loc: Gondwana
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Re: casing material q? [Re: DJYoshaBYD]
#7889062 - 01/16/08 04:47 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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Empire Organics Coco Coir
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Naturally contains Trichoderma a natural rooting/ growth agent.
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Since Trichoderma grow and proliferate best when there are abundant healthy roots, they have evolved numerous mechanisms for both attack of other fungi and for enhancing plant and root growth.
Canna Coco
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it contains a special mould (Trichoderma) which can protect the plant against soil diseases.
So... Google "coco coir trichoderma," and not only will you find that much of the horticultural, hydroponic coco coir out there has trich in it, but it is in there because it is beneficial to plants. Also, maybe the trichoderma isn't intentionally added to the coir, but is intentionally left in place.
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I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.
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donpatch
purukogi...purukogi...


Registered: 11/28/07
Posts: 183
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
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Re: casing material q? [Re: thedefone]
#7889069 - 01/16/08 04:49 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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yea i thought fastfred was wrong about some coir not having trich.... nice research def
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The shroomy 1
Luminous beings surround me




Registered: 03/27/07
Posts: 5,543
Loc: The Aether
Last seen: 5 months, 5 days
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Re: casing material q? [Re: thedefone]
#7889100 - 01/16/08 04:56 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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"speachless" Thanks "Thedefone". >"looks at his last brick of coir<
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AMU Q&A thread.
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SuchSmartMonkeys
mycologically driven individual



Registered: 10/26/05
Posts: 1,154
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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okay....so back to the matter of bulk substrates and casings.....? I found some stuff that may be of interest at the hardware store yesterday. i was looking for potential bulk substrates and found a compost mix that the ingredients were: aged and processed hardwood bark and sawdust, composted animal manures, dried poultry waste, and feather meal. Would this be a good bulk substrate if i mixed in something like straw or vermiculite or something of the like to give it a little more body/air space? I can't remember the brand of it, but it was all organic, looked like good stuff...
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Edited by SuchSmartMonkeys (01/18/08 12:58 PM)
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fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Trichodcerma spp. is not helpful to plants. I have written the two links you posted to inform them of this. Normal coir should not be significantly contaminated with trich, nor would I think that anyone would waste their time adding it to coir. Trich is a parasitic fungus and would not be terribly easy to culture.
-FF
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thedefone
deus ex machina

Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 1,883
Loc: Gondwana
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Re: casing material q? [Re: fastfred]
#7902027 - 01/19/08 02:34 PM (16 years, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Would this be a good bulk substrate if i mixed in something like straw or vermiculite or something of the like to give it a little more body/air space?
Sounds okay to me, but I don't really know much about composts. I would be sure to do as you suggest, and add some vermiculite to keep it nice and airy. It would probably help it retain moisture as well. Give it a shot.
Quote:
Trichodcerma spp. is not helpful to plants. I have written the two links you posted to inform them of this. Normal coir should not be significantly contaminated with trich, nor would I think that anyone would waste their time adding it to coir. Trich is a parasitic fungus and would not be terribly easy to culture.
FastFred. I really don't want to come off as a dick, but just a little research shows that you're way, way off on this one. Below are some more links to some more sites that sure seem to be pretty in the know on this subject. More than me anyway. Read them if you want, but they say pretty clearly that trich is good for plant growth.
Grapevine Trich -X- Fourth paragraph under "Coir" -X- Science Daily -X- Agricultural Uses -X- Potting Mix Beats Fungicides -X- Rutopia+ M
So, I guess my point is that there is trichoderma in your coir. Pasteurize it, or sterilize it... or else.
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I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.
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The shroomy 1
Luminous beings surround me




Registered: 03/27/07
Posts: 5,543
Loc: The Aether
Last seen: 5 months, 5 days
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Re: casing material q? [Re: thedefone]
#7902066 - 01/19/08 02:46 PM (16 years, 13 days ago) |
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I wish Blutjagger would comment on this topic since he regularly uses Coir in his bulk substrates.
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AMU Q&A thread.
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fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Maybe I'm wrong. Thanks for the links.
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