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 OrgoneConclusion
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Registered: 04/01/07
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 Religion, intelligence and education 
#7868006 - 01/12/08 02:46 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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article here
Sociological studies show a direct inverse proprotional link between religiosity and intelligence/education.
The children of highly religious parents suffer diminished IQs - averaging 7 to 10 points lower compared to their non-religious counterparts in similar socio-economic groups. As you would expect from these results, multiple studies have also shown that IQ is opposed to the strength of religious belief. 39 studies since 1927 (out of 43) have found that the more educated a person is, and the higher one's intelligence, the less likely someone is to hold religious beliefs.
Discuss. Or not.
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger
Registered: 04/21/05
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It is nice to see an ad hominem that is supported by research.
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Evolving
Resident Cynic
Registered: 10/01/02
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Personal experience would seem to confirm this.
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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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 jonathanseagull
Cool!
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 Re: Religion, intelligence and education [Re: Evolving]
#7869415 - 01/12/08 03:17 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'd agree with this. But I'd also have to stress the difference between Religious and Spiritual.
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
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Evolving
Resident Cynic
Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
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Re: Religion, intelligence and education [Re: jonathanseagull]
#7869417 - 01/12/08 03:19 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Indeed.
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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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freddurgan
Techgnostic
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Re: Religion, intelligence and education [Re: jonathanseagull]
#7869469 - 01/12/08 03:35 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
jonathanseagull said:
I'd agree with this. But I'd also have to stress the difference between Religious and Spiritual.
Yeah, agreed as well.
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AnastomosisJihad
Hominid
Registered: 01/01/08
Posts: 700
Loc: Ohio
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
article here
Sociological studies show a direct inverse proprotional link between religiosity and intelligence/education.
The children of highly religious parents suffer diminished IQs - averaging 7 to 10 points lower compared to their non-religious counterparts in similar socio-economic groups. As you would expect from these results, multiple studies have also shown that IQ is opposed to the strength of religious belief. 39 studies since 1927 (out of 43) have found that the more educated a person is, and the higher one's intelligence, the less likely someone is to hold religious beliefs.
Discuss. Or not.
Do you have a citation for this? I ask because the source is important for establishing the weight of a claim. If this is from the journal of Nature that would be one thing, but if it's from some militant atheist's website that is another.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Does this mean that if I quit going to church, I'll suddenly get smarter? 
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Religion, intelligence and education [Re: Diploid]
#7869969 - 01/12/08 05:37 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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And richer
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Quote:
AnastomosisJihad said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
article here
Sociological studies show a direct inverse proprotional link between religiosity and intelligence/education.
The children of highly religious parents suffer diminished IQs - averaging 7 to 10 points lower compared to their non-religious counterparts in similar socio-economic groups. As you would expect from these results, multiple studies have also shown that IQ is opposed to the strength of religious belief. 39 studies since 1927 (out of 43) have found that the more educated a person is, and the higher one's intelligence, the less likely someone is to hold religious beliefs.
Discuss. Or not.
Do you have a citation for this? I ask because the source is important for establishing the weight of a claim. If this is from the journal of Nature that would be one thing, but if it's from some militant atheist's website that is another.
It was from Scientific American (where they all wear swastikas & stuff).
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Re: Religion, intelligence and education [Re: jonathanseagull]
#7870663 - 01/12/08 08:01 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
jonathanseagull said:
I'd agree with this. But I'd also have to stress the difference between Religious and Spiritual.
I'd like to hear your definition of spiritual.
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AnastomosisJihad
Hominid
Registered: 01/01/08
Posts: 700
Loc: Ohio
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That is not a citation. I have neither the time nor the inclination to search through every story in every issue of Scientific American.
A citation is either a link I can click on, or a story name, page number, and issue number.
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come together
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AnastomosisJihad
Hominid
Registered: 01/01/08
Posts: 700
Loc: Ohio
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I just saw the link. My bad!
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come together
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Sophistic Radiance
Free sVs!
Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 43,135
Loc: Center of the Universe
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Spirituality is a tendency to question consensus reality, and religiosity is an overeagerness to conclusively answer the questions (among other things). At least that is what the connotations of those words suggest to me.
A mind that believes itself to have the fundamental answers is naturally closed, and a closed mind naturally won't absorb as much as an open one.
Edited by Tchan909 (01/13/08 01:43 AM)
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Sacrebleu
Cheap Ad SpaceHere
Registered: 09/15/07
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Quote:
Tchan909 said:
Spirituality is a tendency to question consensus reality, and religiosity is an overeagerness to conclusively answer the questions (among other things). At least that is what the connotations of those words suggest to me.
A mind that believes itself to have the fundamental answers is naturally closed, and a closed mind naturally won't absorb as much as an open one.
No, spiritualists seem to want to fill the void with by finding meaning in numbers, stars, planetary positions and chi energy. :P
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I have no funny saying. I have no quote. I have no ASCII art. I have no video. I have no meme. I have no bolded or italicized font.
My signature sucks.
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Sophistic Radiance
Free sVs!
Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 43,135
Loc: Center of the Universe
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Re: Religion, intelligence and education [Re: Sacrebleu]
#7872246 - 01/13/08 02:50 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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The numbers, stars, planetary positions and chi energy are religiosity, just not of the type that I'm guessing you're most intimately familiar with.
Spirituality and religiosity feed on each other... it goes both ways, and the line between them isn't always clear. But there is a real difference.
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Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.
Edited by Tchan909 (01/13/08 02:51 AM)
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Re: Religion, intelligence and education [Re: Sacrebleu]
#7872258 - 01/13/08 02:57 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Exactly. I will wager $500 to any takers here that a group of TK, PK, crop circle, homeopathy or crystal power believers will also score lower on an IQ test (to be later agreed upon - perhaps the Mensa entry test) ON AVERAGE than those who recognize those fields as having no merit. (May also narrow it to one field to avoid confusion).
To make the test fair, I will accept 10 volunteers from both sides. They must be long-term members, have a high post count and regularly post in either P&S or M&P and their position must be made clear from past posts. (No ringers or switch-hitters.)
Using my powers, I predict no takers. If there are no takers, what might this tell us?
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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (01/13/08 06:23 AM)
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
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That's because the tests are designed to be in coherence with a strictly worldly western logic system. Most things that appear in religiosity or spirituality don't appear in any form within those tests.
There are quite some definitions of intelligence.
And now think about the designers of those modern western 'intelligence' tests and their intention.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Re: Religion, intelligence and education [Re: BlueCoyote]
#7872375 - 01/13/08 05:05 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yeah, they purposely designed those test decades ago solely to fuck with 'cereologists' and UFO buffs. 
Western logic? Chinese and Japanese cannot figure things out? WTF?
Those with greater intelligence can figure out the pieces of the puzzle easier and have an increased ability (in general) to discern fact from fiction.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
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They were purposefully designed to cut away all assumtional, imaginary, analogical or metaphorical subjects and skills.
Of course, because they want to lead towards an unique result, one that excludes the possibilities behind each assumption.
It's only a self proving circular system, which excludes any way of breakout.
For an example, they rarely test any 'artistic' ability. Perhaps only there, where it would be 'adequte' haha, marketing or something..
edit: In short: The 'intelligence'-tests will only test that what one was educated 
Edited by BlueCoyote (01/13/08 05:23 AM)
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Re: Religion, intelligence and education [Re: BlueCoyote]
#7872419 - 01/13/08 05:55 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
BlueCoyote said:
edit: In short: The 'intelligence'-tests will only test that what one was educated
No.
Not really.
While I agree with you that intelligence tests still have more until they will be close to accuracy, I do not agree with the idea you're trying to present here because it is very far from the truth.
What you are trying to imply with "educated" refers to social norms, standards and belong more to ethics.
The IQ test is hardly concerned with the morality of an individual.
It is oriented to measure one's ability to be lucid, aware and apt to determine reality. Things that are important for an individual to do if they want to live life in a constructive and rational manner. It stands for progress.
Let's see some random examples from some I.Q. tests:
Quote:
Two ducks and two dogs have a total of fourteen legs.
True False
As you see, this question is quite explainable and natural regarding the construct and structure of reality.
Unless you wanna argue whether or not a human was educated (trained) to see two legs in a duck and four legs in a dog. 
And of you wanna argue about that I'm really curious how you'll do it. 
Now let's look at another example:
Quote:
2. Which one of these is least like the four?
Horse
Kangaroo
Goat
Deer
Donkey
As you can see, this question is also concerned with one's ability to determine the similarities and differences. And this is also an imperative matter if we want to have the ability to determine the reality that surrounds us.
Errors in thinking lead to accidents, accidents lead to traumas and so on. Need I go on any further that that in explaining what could happen if I thought that the one that didn't belong there was the goat? 
Should I even begin to draw similarities between this situation and other situations where I wouldn't be able to make the correct measurements? 
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
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Re: Religion, intelligence and education [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7872434 - 01/13/08 06:10 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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"Two ducks and two dogs have a total of fourteen legs.
True False"
Haha, sorry, I am quite stoned and drunk, but I love to rip that apart 
Primarily that is made up for wings are not legs, pure definition.
And for idiot falesafe, they don't even offer the other 'correct' answer: sixteen.
So, of course it is about what you are trained to see in a function of a body-part, but in fact, wings had been primarily legs as well 
"2. Which one of these is least like the four?
Horse
Kangaroo
Goat
Deer
Donkey"
So what is the right answer here ? Kangaroo, because it raises its child in a bag ? What if one of the others would be a reptile, which also runs on two legs, lol, and the answer still was designed to be that the most difference is to be raised in a bag ?
Designed shit
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Posts: 45,441
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Re: Religion, intelligence and education [Re: BlueCoyote]
#7872448 - 01/13/08 06:34 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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You are only having trouble with the animal portion of the quiz because you are part blue jay and part coyote due to genetic splicing which was not yet done at the time the test was designed.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
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Hehe, yeah
It's about what you wanna be doing with your front legs
Just running, or playing with tools, or begin to fly (even back into the sea) 
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Re: Religion, intelligence and education [Re: BlueCoyote]
#7875113 - 01/13/08 07:32 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Primarily that is made up for wings are not legs, pure definition.
And for idiot falesafe, they don't even offer the other 'correct' answer: sixteen.
So, of course it is about what you are trained to see in a function of a body-part, but in fact, wings had been primarily legs as well
Wings ONCE WERE legs.
Let's not omit that this was somewhere in the past, so let's focus on the present, where wings are wings and not legs anymore.
An IQ test is NOT concerned with one's knowledge regarding general culture. 
If we were to use that logic, we would say that a duck is really an egg, since the duck came out of an egg, so initially it was presenting itself as being boxed in there.
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Re: Religion, intelligence and education [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7876847 - 01/14/08 01:26 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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What about bats ? They have claws at their wings and also can walk on them. Wing-arm-legs ? Wargs...
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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It is a terrible hypocrisy to advocate science with one hand and use the other hand to throw pseudoscientific fallacies around. Implying that religious people are less intelligent, and therefore wrong, based on a few poorly conducted studies using a metric that tests a very narrow range of tasks is just as moronic as any creationist's argument.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Religion, intelligence and education [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#7877518 - 01/14/08 09:32 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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ZAP!
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Re: Religion, intelligence and education [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#7877777 - 01/14/08 11:07 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Perhaps you would care to show flaws in the studies rather than merely call this thread moronic. Your mere declaration has no value.
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 falcon
Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 8,043
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Religiosity?
Did they do any studies of theologians? Maybe a study comparing intellegence and theologisity?
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falcon
Registered: 04/01/02
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Last seen: 2 minutes, 45 seconds
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flaws?
Heres a counter argument.
http://www.geocities.com/meta_crock/other/smarter.htm
I would like to see the protocols for all the studies before I would comment.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Posts: 45,441
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Re: Religion, intelligence and education [Re: falcon]
#7879593 - 01/14/08 06:13 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Not surprisingly, no New Ager wants to accept my challenge which may display some intelligence...
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Re: Religion, intelligence and education [Re: falcon]
#7879621 - 01/14/08 06:19 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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How about an unbiased survey based upon some of the more brilliant thinkers on the planet?
Nature, 394(6691):313, 23 July 1998
"Leading Scientists Still Reject God"
A recent survey of members of the National Academy of Sciences showed that 72% are outright atheists, 21% are agnostic and only 7% admit to belief in a personal God.
Belief in personal God 1998
Personal belief 7.0 %
Personal disbelief 72.2
Doubt or agnosticism 20.8
Belief in human immortality 1998
Personal belief 7.9 %
Personal disbelief 76.7
Doubt or agnosticism 23.3
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falcon
Registered: 04/01/02
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This personal disbelief, I am skeptical about.
Is this a personal disbelief in a personal God, that they interpreted as being
atheism. I would like to see what they asked the scientists and what there responses were, not just a synopsis and interpretation.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Re: Religion, intelligence and education [Re: falcon]
#7879730 - 01/14/08 06:37 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Would you say that the War on Drugs is a display of intelligence?
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Better question: Is circular reasoning a tool of an intelligent or an unintelligent mind?
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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (01/14/08 09:39 PM)
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falcon
Registered: 04/01/02
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Would you say that the War on Drugs is a display of intelligence?
My personal belief is that everyone should be self medicating, doctors and pharmacists should act as advisors, not dispensers.
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falcon
Registered: 04/01/02
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Re: Religion, intelligence and education [Re: falcon]
#7879924 - 01/14/08 07:08 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Would you say that the War on Drugs is a display of intelligence?
I can not answer your original question, because it is vague and meaningless.
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falcon
Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 8,043
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Better question: Is circular reasoning a tool of an intelligent or an unitelligent mind?
Reasoning is a tool of all minds, both intelligent and unintelligent people are guilty of circular reasoning.
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Rose
Devil's Advocate
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Re: Religion, intelligence and education [Re: falcon]
#7880059 - 01/14/08 07:34 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
falcon said:
Would you say that the War on Drugs is a display of intelligence?
My personal belief is that everyone should be self medicating, doctors and pharmacists should act as advisors, not dispensers.
Quote:
falcon said:
Would you say that the War on Drugs is a display of intelligence?
I can not answer your original question, because it is vague and meaningless.
You can't answer...? Then why did you answer?
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Fiddlesticks.
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falcon
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Re: Religion, intelligence and education [Re: Rose]
#7880119 - 01/14/08 07:45 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Ah I'm unintelligent and easily led away from the original topic? , I should have said I can't answer yes or no, hence the shrug and my answer that did not address the question.
The war on drugs is too large a topic to pidgeon hole as either a display of intelligence or not.
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger
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1.) There is literally an infinite amount of meaningless correlations that you can 'discover' using a survey.
2.) The intelligence of religious people has nothing to do with whether or not a god exists.
3.) The Stanford-Binet tests a very small range of tasks; it is used to predict academic success.
4.) Just because most scientists in the National Academy of Sciences are not religious is not an argument for the non-existence of god. (Appeal to authority.)
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jonathanseagull
Cool!
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
jonathanseagull said:
I'd agree with this. But I'd also have to stress the difference between Religious and Spiritual.
I'd like to hear your definition of spiritual.
Religion: Creed, Community, Code of Ethics
Spirituality: Subjective experience of the "_____"
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
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