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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Whats w/ Republicans and Reagan?
#7866607 - 01/11/08 08:03 PM (16 years, 21 days ago) |
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I'm watching the myrtle beach rep. debate here, and I can't figure these folks out.
Why does every fucking answer talk about Reagan? Even shit that has nothing to do w/ him.
"well, reagan once said..."
"Reagan understood that.... (insert feel-good generality here)"
Christ, they will refer to a reagan principle in lieu of actually enumerating there positions.
Quote:
WALLACE: Senator McCain, as a deficit hawk, I just want to ask you for a 30-second rebuttal on that.
Do you believe the tax cuts pay for themselves or do you believe that they add to the deficit?
McCain: ... I'm proud to have been a member of the Reagan revolution, a foot soldier. And we cut taxes, but Ronald pay Reagan knew we had to cut spending at the same time. And that was our great failure as a party, is we cut taxes and then we let spending get out of control.
Quote:
Goller: I wonder, sir, how you would keep a Palestinian state from becoming a breeding ground for anti-American terrorism.
... Giuliani: You know, Ronald Reagan had a theory of trust but verify. So we get the statement of policy that they've -- they will forego terrorism, and then we're going to want to see a period of time in which they've actually accomplished that and we don't have terrorist acts.
Quote:
CAMERON: ... on the campaign trail over the course of the last several months when you've been asked about your conservatism, you've said that it was basically up for voters to decide. I wonder if you can explain why you're the complete conservative tonight without quoting George Will, and contrast that conservatism to the rest of the members on the dais here.
GIULIANI: Well, first of all, the reason Ronald Reagan was elected in 1980 was because Ronald Reagan was seen as the strongest leader in comparison to Jimmy Carter. And Ronald Reagan ran a 50- state campaign. Of course, it was built around peace through strength, which meant a strong military. And it was built around empowering people, which is why he lowered taxes. He didn't lower taxes just for the purpose of lowering taxes, he lowered taxes because he wanted to leave money in people's pockets because he felt that people spending money creatively is much better than government trying to direct the spending of money.
It seemed particularly ridiculous in this debate (I'm not even through it yet).
What is the deal?
Why is a vague allusion to Reagan an acceptable answer to a specific question?
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: Whats w/ Republicans and Reagan? [Re: johnm214]
#7866848 - 01/11/08 09:17 PM (16 years, 21 days ago) |
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You will love this video. It makes fun of the Regan thing and is pretty funny, especially the McCain part.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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Coaster
Baʿal



Registered: 05/22/06
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Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
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zorbman
blarrr



Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
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Re: Whats w/ Republicans and Reagan? [Re: johnm214]
#7867272 - 01/11/08 11:04 PM (16 years, 21 days ago) |
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How old are you?
The reason I ask is because most people who lived through the political phenomena which was Ronald Reagan would not have to ask this question.
Basically, what's happened is that President Reagan has become an iconic figure because of the huge impact he had on our country and by transference, the republican party. Love him or hate him, he was an undeniable giant in American history.
He ended the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression plus the Cold war without firing a shot. George W. Bush couldn't carry his jock strap. He had his faults, like all men, but in political terms he was as a stud.
So now you have pretenders to the throne. They want to inherit his mantle. They are puny and unworthy but that won't stop them from trying to take the sword from the stone!
Republicans have devolved since The Man:
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
Edited by zorbman (01/12/08 12:17 AM)
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art
Stranger
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Re: Whats w/ Republicans and Reagan? [Re: zorbman]
#7867390 - 01/11/08 11:45 PM (16 years, 21 days ago) |
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Look up supply side economics. His economic policies had a huge impact on America and the way things are done, and set the precedent for things like Guiliani's, "biggest tax cut ever"
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Whats w/ Republicans and Reagan? [Re: zorbman]
#7867550 - 01/12/08 12:35 AM (16 years, 21 days ago) |
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Well I'm too young to be politically-conscious first hand of the Reagan administration, but I am pretty familiar w/ his policies and impact.
But my point is that this crap is like saying
"What do you think we should do about the economy?
A. I feel we must look out for our children and improve the economy. I'm proud to have children and will look out for them"
or
"What do you think of crime?
A. We must protect our children. Thugs shouldn't be able to damage american families"
The point is its a nonanswer, and just cuz its a vaguely Reagen-esque policy doesn't mean its good.
These vague references are a logical fallacy, an appeal to tradition/authority, and are utterly useless- and frankly insulting.
I want to hear what the policy is, and why its a good idea, not that "Well Reagan said this, and its really a good idea, and I'm such a reagan junky, et cet...."
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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gettin jiggy w it, nice video
I don't really think its that funny, but its pretty accurate. FIrst debate was at the Reagan Library right? They were all worshiping Reagan at that one too.
The Reagan shit is like the Bill Brasky videos. Just Substitute "Reagan" for "Bill Brasky" and imagine the speakers are the candidates. Dead on...
http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=6550336
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zorbman
blarrr



Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
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Re: Whats w/ Republicans and Reagan? [Re: johnm214]
#7867698 - 01/12/08 01:07 AM (16 years, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
I want to hear what the policy is, and why its a good idea, not that "Well Reagan said this, and its really a good idea, and I'm such a reagan junky, et cet...."
I hear ya. Reagan himself would probably agree with you.
It would be nice to hear something new from these candidates. Fact remains, the current republican president is widely regarded as a failure and the party hasn't had a success since Reagan. That's almost twenty years. So naturally, they look back to the last success they had and Reagan is their standard bearer.
Most people of voting age remember Reagan and his name is sort of a brand now. Most people recognize that, in spite of his politics, he was a straight-shooter and would never, ever have misled them into a war like Bush and been incompetent in his dealings. His name is the gold standard in many places and it is no small wonder that republican politicians today attempt to glom onto it in vain.
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Posts: 81,741
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Re: Whats w/ Republicans and Reagan? [Re: zorbman]
#7868596 - 01/12/08 10:22 AM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
zorbman said:
Quote:
I want to hear what the policy is, and why its a good idea, not that "Well Reagan said this, and its really a good idea, and I'm such a reagan junky, et cet...."
I hear ya. Reagan himself would probably agree with you.
Reagan was equally evasive on the stump. And far more belligerent on foreign policy than anyone I have ever heard since.Quote:
It would be nice to hear something new from these candidates. Fact remains, the current republican president is widely regarded as a failure and the party hasn't had a success since Reagan. That's almost twenty years. So naturally, they look back to the last success they had and Reagan is their standard bearer.
We'll see how history treats W. Not had a success? In 1994 they took control of the House, something they hadn't had for several decades and just lost last year. That strikes me as success. So does holding the WH for 12 of those 20 years and the Senate for most of it as well. Quote:
Most people of voting age remember Reagan and his name is sort of a brand now. Most people recognize that, in spite of his politics, he was a straight-shooter and would never, ever have misled them into a war like Bush and been incompetent in his dealings. His name is the gold standard in many places and it is no small wonder that republican politicians today attempt to glom onto it in vain.
First of all, nobody misled anybody into war. The entire congress voted for it, including those members on the Intelligence Committees. Continuing to repeat this lie does not make it true.
Second of all, Reagan had his own little bit of perfidy in the Iran-Contra affair. His own handling of Iran was disgraceful but he was willing to appease those douchebags for his own aggrandizement (He Saved the Hostages). He used Iran to divert funds, against the explicit wishes of Congress, to go after a small bunch of commie thugs in Nicaragua and el Salvador. The Reagan fellaters are whining that Charlie Wilson's War doesn't credit Reagan enough but he really had very little to do with the work in Afghanistan. He was much more concentrated on fighting the Commies locally, to the point of obsession, and was not at all instrumental in the realization that we could give the Soviets there own little "Vietnam."
And then there is Iran. I am not so sure that kicking the last stone on the grave of a fading threat deserves credit more than ignoring the emergence of a new one deserves condemnation. I suspect that we would all be much better off if he had taken a brutal line with the mad mullahs from the get go, something that would have been perfectly understandable given their attack on our soil.
As far as an economic savior, he did OK. He still had to contend with an adversary Congress but a bunch of stoned monkeys would have been an improvement over Carter and Nixon and the recession Bush pere got stuck with was due to Reagan. These things don't get caused in one year's policy but take a few years to develop. The financial scandals of the early 90's were just revealed then. Reagan was in charge when the crimes were committed.
This Conservative is not fooled by Reagan fellaters. They are simple minded romantics. I suspect most of the candidates know this but that will not help them win votes.
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
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Re: Whats w/ Republicans and Reagan? [Re: zappaisgod]
#7868607 - 01/12/08 10:29 AM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
As far as an economic savior, he did OK. He still had to contend with an adversary Congress but a bunch of stoned monkeys would have been an improvement over Carter and Nixon and the recession Bush pere got stuck with was due to Reagan. These things don't get caused in one year's policy but take a few years to develop. The financial scandals of the early 90's were just revealed then. Reagan was in charge when the crimes were committed.
So I assume you'll blame G-Dub for the current recession as well, instead of screeching about Democratic Spending and the Nanny State?
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
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Re: Whats w/ Republicans and Reagan? [Re: Madtowntripper]
#7868617 - 01/12/08 10:35 AM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
So I assume you'll blame G-Dub for the current recession as well...
Remembering that words have meanings (which is why there are so many of them), to which recession do you refer?
Phred
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
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Re: Whats w/ Republicans and Reagan? [Re: Phred]
#7868704 - 01/12/08 11:19 AM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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Don't pretend like you aren't aware of what I'm talking about.
Anyone who pays any attention to economic news in the United States could not possibly have missed the concern in economic circles over the direction of economy and fears of recession.
You can argue semantics and say it hasn't quite started yet, but this is parsing words. The fact is that many of the key sectors of the economy have stopped growing or are in marginal decline. While it remains to be seen how severe this will be, acting like it does not exist is ignorant.
Hell, even the Republicans are willing to send through an economic stimulus package to help things out.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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zorbman
blarrr



Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
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Re: Whats w/ Republicans and Reagan? [Re: zappaisgod]
#7868711 - 01/12/08 11:21 AM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
We'll see how history treats W. Not had a success? In 1994 they took control of the House, something they hadn't had for several decades and just lost last year.
I was referring to success on the presidential level- the topic at hand. Bush is highly unpopular and his father was a one-termer. Ironically, both men (will have) left power during a recession.
Quote:
First of all, nobody misled anybody into war. The entire congress voted for it, including those members on the Intelligence Committees. Continuing to repeat this lie does not make it true.
Off-topic, but there is ample evidence the Bush admin deliberately distorted, manipulated and cherry-picked intelligence to justify their foolish Iraq war. The majority of the country understands this. I will keep repeating it because it is true. Those who ignore history are condemned to repeat it.
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
Edited by zorbman (01/12/08 11:28 AM)
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
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Re: Whats w/ Republicans and Reagan? [Re: Madtowntripper]
#7868735 - 01/12/08 11:30 AM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
Anyone who pays any attention to economic news in the United States could not possibly have missed the concern in economic circles over the direction of economy and fears of recession.
Ah. So when you speak of the "current recession", you are really speaking of the rumors of an impending recession which anti-Bush pundits have been claiming is "just around the corner" for over six years now. I see.
Will the US economy slow down from its current long-running and robust expansion eventually? Sure it will. But a reduction in rate of growth is not a recession. Never has been and never will be.
But now we are past the point of discussing Reagan's economic contributions and are instead looking at Bush's. For this I apologize to the thread author. Perhaps you and I should continue this tangent in a separate thread.
Phred
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
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Re: Whats w/ Republicans and Reagan? [Re: zorbman]
#7868745 - 01/12/08 11:33 AM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
Off-topic, but there is ample evidence the Bush admin deliberately distorted, manipulated and cherry-picked intelligence to justify their foolish Iraq war.
It is true that your false claim is off topic. Is it of enough interest to you to start a new thread substantiating your assertion? If not, it would show respect to the thread's author to drop the tangent.
Phred
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zorbman
blarrr



Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
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Re: Whats w/ Republicans and Reagan? [Re: Madtowntripper]
#7868753 - 01/12/08 11:36 AM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
Madtowntripper said: Don't pretend like you aren't aware of what I'm talking about.
Anyone who pays any attention to economic news in the United States could not possibly have missed the concern in economic circles over the direction of economy and fears of recession.
You can argue semantics and say it hasn't quite started yet, but this is parsing words. The fact is that many of the key sectors of the economy have stopped growing or are in marginal decline. While it remains to be seen how severe this will be, acting like it does not exist is ignorant.
Hell, even the Republicans are willing to send through an economic stimulus package to help things out.

Everyone will catch up this year to the recession. I've had 'Bush Recession 2008' in my avatar since late 2007 when most everything looked fine. This may be the most predicted and predictable economic downturn we've ever had.
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Whats w/ Republicans and Reagan? [Re: zorbman]
#7868755 - 01/12/08 11:36 AM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
zorbman said:
Quote:
We'll see how history treats W. Not had a success? In 1994 they took control of the House, something they hadn't had for several decades and just lost last year.
I was referring to success on the presidential level- the topic at hand. Bush is highly unpopular and his father was a one-termer. Ironically, both men (will have) left power during a recession.
We aren't in a recession, although the press has tried to create one for few years, and he has not left office yet. What? Are you some kind of future historian? This is the politics forum, not mysticism and the paranormal.
The Republicans have controlled the WH for 12 out of the last 20 years and Congress for even more. That constitutes having political success, contrary to your assertion.Quote:
Quote:
First of all, nobody misled anybody into war. The entire congress voted for it, including those members on the Intelligence Committees. Continuing to repeat this lie does not make it true.
Off-topic, but there is ample evidence the Bush admin deliberately distorted, manipulated and cherry-picked intelligence to justify their foolish Iraq war. I will keep repeating it because it is true. Those who ignore history are condemned to repeat it.
No there isn't. As has been shown in numerous threads, in some of which you yourself received a spanking at my hands, at Phred's hands, at lonestar's hands and at the hands of some others. The prima facie killer argument against this is that the Senators and Representatives on the Intelligence Committees voted for the war. From both parties. Since neither you nor anyone you know was allowed a vote on this war, the only deceived parties relevant would be those Congresspeople. The state of your information is of zero relevance, much like yourself. Also Clinton emphatically made almost the exact same statements as Bush. So, keep lying to yourself, that matters not one whit, but you will not do it here so easily.
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
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Re: Whats w/ Republicans and Reagan? [Re: Phred]
#7868757 - 01/12/08 11:37 AM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said:
Will the US economy slow down from its current long-running and robust expansion eventually? Sure it will. But a reduction in rate of growth is not a recession. Never has been and never will be.
Phred
The American National Bureau of Economic Research defines a recession as "a significant decline in economic activity spread across the economy, lasting more than a few months."
Not negative growth, but a significant decline in economic activity.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: Whats w/ Republicans and Reagan? [Re: Madtowntripper]
#7868791 - 01/12/08 11:47 AM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/3807
Quote:
Officially, what defines a recession is two consecutive quarters of negative growth in real Gross Domestic Product. In practice, any period of high rates of unemployment, interest rates, inflation, or other indicator is called a receccion by politicians and media people.
http://www.answers.com/topic/recession?cat=biz-fin
Quote:
An extended decline in general business activity, typically two consecutive quarters of falling real gross national product.
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/recession.asp
A Quote:
significant decline in activity spread across the economy, lasting longer than a few months. It is visible in industrial production, employment, real income and wholesale-retail trade. The technical indicator of a recession is two consecutive quarters of negative economic growth as measured by a country's gross domestic product (GDP). Recession is a normal (albeit unpleasant) part of the business cycle. A recession generally lasts from six to 18 months.
No, madtown, not a slow down, an actual decline. Oh, and nice link.
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Edited by zappaisgod (01/12/08 11:48 AM)
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zorbman
blarrr



Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
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Re: Whats w/ Republicans and Reagan? [Re: Phred]
#7868794 - 01/12/08 11:48 AM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
It is true that your false claim is off topic.
Phred, my true statement was on-topic as it was briefly mentioned within one sentence to highlight the difference between the character of the current republican president and past ones. I didn't create a tangent- if anyone did it was zap by devoting an entire paragraph to it.
Quote:
it would show respect to the thread's author to drop the tangent.
I had already dropped it. And to be fair, you should warn zap as well. I know you sympathize with his position, but fair is fair.
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
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