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Asante
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Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang?
#7865066 - 01/11/08 01:34 PM (16 years, 21 days ago) |
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Time for some speculation by scientific minds. You can't look beyond a singularity by definition, but what do you think caused the Big Bang?
How does so much energy end up in so small an area? What was there before the Bang, and what exploded?
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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Seuss
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: Asante]
#7865135 - 01/11/08 01:50 PM (16 years, 21 days ago) |
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There was nothing before the big bang. A big glob of homogony. The biblical void. Singularity. In a moment of paradox, the homogony became self-aware, giving birth to duality through the big bang. Thats my excuse, and I'm sticking with it.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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WhiskeyClone
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: Asante]
#7865480 - 01/11/08 03:12 PM (16 years, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
Wiccan_Seeker said: Time for some speculation by scientific minds. You can't look beyond a singularity by definition, but what do you think caused the Big Bang?
How does so much energy end up in so small an area? What was there before the Bang, and what exploded?
If time and space are inseparable, then there was no time before there was space, therefore there was no 'before' the big bang, and therefore no cause. If I'm going to speculate for fun, I'd guess the universe expands and contracts eternally for absolutely no reason at all.
-------------------- Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it. ~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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Annom
※※※※※※




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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: Asante]
#7865580 - 01/11/08 03:35 PM (16 years, 21 days ago) |
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Our universe could be part of something larger; just an electron in a human body. Universes of universes, evolving by survival of the fittest. Or just nothing, a singularity. Or many other options. I don't know.
It is fun to think about though.
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Colonel Kurtz Ph.D
What What?


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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: Asante]
#7865655 - 01/11/08 03:59 PM (16 years, 21 days ago) |
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Or, or it could just be cool
--------------------
There's no better way to rock out than with your cock out!!
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DieCommie


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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: Asante]
#7865952 - 01/11/08 05:01 PM (16 years, 21 days ago) |
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Probably something, but what it is would be of course un-fathomable to minds that had not evolved in it. If it was a deliberate act by a consciousness, there is no evidence either way. But that might not even be a relevant question given the properties of a "multiverse" we cant even fathom.
I dont think the bang is just some asymptotic beginning to all that exists or is. But hell, that could be the case too.
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PhanTomCat
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: Asante]
#7866379 - 01/11/08 06:38 PM (16 years, 21 days ago) |
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Kurzweil says that the (2nd) singularity is calculated to be 2029 - when computer sophistication is equal to the complexity of the human brain - and the brain's understanding.... Not sure why it is called the singularity, when there supposedly already was one before the big bang.....
I guess "The Secondularity" doesn't exactly flow as nicely as "The Singularity"....  Maybe it is supposed to mean that the second singularity causes the first singularity, in a self sustaining endless loop....  When matter becomes self aware without being a part of bio-life, it all starts over in an implosion (back to the first singularity) - then comes the critical big bang reset, and "forgets" it was self aware.... Let the learning begin, again....! 
>^;;^<
Edit: Add Big Bang, and added to my thought above....
Edited by PhanTomCat (01/11/08 10:17 PM)
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supra
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: Asante]
#7867834 - 01/12/08 01:35 AM (16 years, 21 days ago) |
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Maybe something like the big bang happens over and over again. Think of it this way, right now the universe is expanding. Maybe, just maybe it has a center of gravity, once it stops expanding, it will start contracting. After billions and billions of years, maybe the universe starts to crumble into a ball for lack of better definition. Once this ball gets dense enough, KABOOM!!! It all begins again...who the fuck knows, but its fun to think about.
peace
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Seuss
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: supra]
#7868029 - 01/12/08 02:56 AM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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> Think of it this way, right now the universe is expanding. Maybe, just maybe it has a center of gravity, once it stops expanding, it will start contracting.
It isn't just expanding, but the expansion is accelerating. This means it is expanding faster and faster. Unless some force acts against the expansion, then it will expand forever. If some force were acting against the expansion, then it would be decelerating rather than accelerating. Based on this, with our current understanding of physics, there will be no contraction of the universe. It will continue to expand forever, even after the stars burn out.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Cubie
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: Seuss]
#7868069 - 01/12/08 03:25 AM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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That 2029 thing I think that's called zero point now or something but b4 the bang there was that blob thingy with gravity' matter weak nuclear energy and strong nuclear energy . With them zooming around like electrons n shit. Noone knows what caused the big bang but I think gravity colideed with matter creating dark matter and dark energy which would explain why they make üp so much of the universe. And have them a positive and negitive charge which explains gravitys effects toewards matter.
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Colonel Kurtz Ph.D
What What?


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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: Seuss]
#7868238 - 01/12/08 07:24 AM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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And thus entropy will arrive at its maximum potential and voilá! We have "The last question" by Asimov
--------------------
There's no better way to rock out than with your cock out!!
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supra
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: Seuss]
#7868404 - 01/12/08 09:07 AM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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wow...didn't know that suess, thanks for the info...im sure no one knows, but ill ask anyway. What is causing the expansion to accelerate? Is it still the initial force of the big bang, but that leads me to believe that it would slow down over time, not speed up? Weird.
peace
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Cubie
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: supra]
#7868425 - 01/12/08 09:18 AM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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Noone knows why the expansion is accelerating but an interesting theory is because of dark energy. I couldn't elaborate perfectly off hand so if your interested google it. Or try space dot com
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Annom
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: supra]
#7868503 - 01/12/08 09:45 AM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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Don't forget that this expansion of the universe is not a normal expansion (like in an explosion), but an expansion of space itself.
That the expansion of space is accelerating was a great discovery of the 1990 and was not expected. It is one of the major problems in physics/cosmology.
Like Cubie said, noone really knows why the expansion is accelerating. From what I remember from my bad memory is that the inflationary theory(some new big bang theory) can somehow explain this acceleration with enough mass/energy in the universe. It was thought that there wasn't enough mass in the universe to cause the acceleration (according to inflation theory), but dark energy (which probably is 70% of total mass/energy in the universe) could be the missing mass/energy to cause an accelerating expansion (according to inflation theory).
I can't explain these concepts because I don't really understand them, you will have to wait for someone else or google some things I mentioned.
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Cubie
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: Annom]
#7868519 - 01/12/08 09:50 AM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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Yea that's what I was saying even the experts can't fully wrap their minds around it. But your smart dude ur definitly right on key
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: Cubie]
#7868548 - 01/12/08 10:02 AM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
Cubie said: \ Noone knows what caused the big bang but I think gravity colideed with matter creating dark matter and dark energy which would explain why they make üp so much of the universe. And have them a positive and negitive charge which explains gravitys effects toewards matter.
No gravity before the big bang.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Cubie
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: Madtowntripper]
#7868576 - 01/12/08 10:10 AM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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actuley there is no way to prove that. i was speculating on a theroy that i explained in that peticular post.
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sleepy
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: Cubie]
#7869440 - 01/12/08 03:26 PM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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the big blasting cap, of course
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Colonel Kurtz Ph.D
What What?


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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: Asante]
#7871203 - 01/12/08 10:06 PM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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It was a fart.
I just created a new big bang in this very seat
--------------------
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Ego Death
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: Asante]
#7872827 - 01/13/08 10:25 AM (16 years, 19 days ago) |
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There was 0 now there is 1
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: Cubie]
#7876110 - 01/13/08 10:08 PM (16 years, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Cubie said: That 2029 thing I think that's called zero point now or something
"Zero Point" is something completely different....  Technological Singularity (LINK)
Gravitational Singularity (LINK)
Zero Point Energy (LINK)
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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Cubie
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7876175 - 01/13/08 10:20 PM (16 years, 19 days ago) |
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I wasn't really sure. But thanx for the info
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: Cubie]
#7876426 - 01/13/08 11:43 PM (16 years, 19 days ago) |
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Dood, by a somewhat strange turn of events (in terms of random timing), I found this (and, I wasn't looking for it).... This must be what you were talking about, it mentions the singularity in it....(?)
Omega Point (LINK)
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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Cubie
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7876478 - 01/13/08 11:55 PM (16 years, 19 days ago) |
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That is exactly what I was talking about. That's Kool shit that you found it çuz I didn't remember where the hell I read about it 5 points 4 you!
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ToTheSummit
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: Asante]
#7880177 - 01/14/08 07:54 PM (16 years, 18 days ago) |
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Only one thing existed before the Big Bang....Chuck Norris.
Ask him how he did it.
-------------------- You invented the wheel....You push the motherfucker!!
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sleepy
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: ToTheSummit]
#7880206 - 01/14/08 08:01 PM (16 years, 18 days ago) |
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so chuck, just how exactly DID you create the universe?
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Cubie
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: sleepy]
#7880779 - 01/14/08 10:24 PM (16 years, 18 days ago) |
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Lmao. Chuck Norris dosent sleep..... He waits
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WhiskeyClone
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: ToTheSummit]
#7882129 - 01/15/08 08:15 AM (16 years, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
ToTheSummit said: Only one thing existed before the Big Bang....Chuck Norris.
Ask him how he it.
I did. I got roundhoused.
-------------------- Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it. ~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#7882212 - 01/15/08 08:50 AM (16 years, 17 days ago) |
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Some may call this a cop-out, but I don't believe in the Big Bang. I think whatever "caused" all this has to be unimaginable from the mind, and the Big Bang is imaginable.
--------------------
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WhiskeyClone
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7882659 - 01/15/08 10:46 AM (16 years, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: I think whatever "caused" all this has to be unimaginable from the mind
Why?
-------------------- Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it. ~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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DieCommie


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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7883298 - 01/15/08 12:43 PM (16 years, 17 days ago) |
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I am skeptical of how 'imaginable' the bang is for you. The bang is the creation of space and time. The small point that is now the universe didnt start in a 'place' or 'time'. Time and space itself unfurled out of the singularity in the process of the bang.
I dont think any human can truly imagine or picture an infinitely small point of infinite density existing outside of our notions of time and space.
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Cubie
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: DieCommie]
#7883581 - 01/15/08 02:02 PM (16 years, 17 days ago) |
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Sorry but but that's your opinion.and everyone knows what those are like. Everyone thinks in such differnt ways that 'you' couldn't imagin. How someone else thinks. So just because they have a better understanding doesn't make it wrong.
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: Cubie]
#7884520 - 01/15/08 05:02 PM (16 years, 17 days ago) |
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Do you know this is not the philosophy forums?
This is science.
People are right, and people are wrong. You can't have it your way.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Cubie
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: Madtowntripper]
#7884557 - 01/15/08 05:08 PM (16 years, 17 days ago) |
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Considering I was commenting on his theroy of the big bang I do not see your point
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Newbie
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: Asante]
#7885897 - 01/15/08 09:05 PM (16 years, 17 days ago) |
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The fact that we can even question this trips me out. It's almost a form of meditation to me...questioning the existence of everything. How could there be nothing? Even the IDEA of nothing is something. There's something really permanent to the universe, no matter what state it's in.
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WhiskeyClone
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: Newbie]
#7885908 - 01/15/08 09:06 PM (16 years, 17 days ago) |
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groovy
-------------------- Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it. ~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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AnastomosisJihad
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#7886750 - 01/15/08 11:48 PM (16 years, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: > Think of it this way, right now the universe is expanding. Maybe, just maybe it has a center of gravity, once it stops expanding, it will start contracting.
It isn't just expanding, but the expansion is accelerating. This means it is expanding faster and faster. Unless some force acts against the expansion, then it will expand forever. If some force were acting against the expansion, then it would be decelerating rather than accelerating. Based on this, with our current understanding of physics, there will be no contraction of the universe. It will continue to expand forever, even after the stars burn out.
Maybe this section of the universe the Milkyway inhabits is expanding while the the whole universe maintains equilibrium. Like a small whirlpool in a river, or like the wind under an airplane's wing, the little bubble of universe we can see might be expanding while the whole thing swirls in another direction.
I think the big bang is bogus anyway. It assumes that something comes from nothing, violating the principle of conservation of energy, and it assumes inconstancy in relative strength of the 4 elementary forces. I prefer the big bounce theory, which holds that a previous version of the universe collapsed in on itself, but ceased collapsing and started to expand when particles got so close together that the electromagnetic force and the weak force became relatively stronger than gravity, at which point the universe bounced and began to expand again.
The big bounce story explains all the evidence accounted for by a big bang, but does not require some magical singularity. It also allows for the possibility of information from the last phase of the universe to be passed on to this one.
-------------------- come together
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sleepy
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: AnastomosisJihad]
#7886786 - 01/15/08 11:57 PM (16 years, 17 days ago) |
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big bounce, i like the name better, so it must be true!
seriously tough, Chuck Norris' roundhouse kick of fury is now 73 percent done, and once he sets both feet back on the ground, we will begin a new universe
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Cubie
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: sleepy]
#7886838 - 01/16/08 12:14 AM (16 years, 17 days ago) |
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Seuss. In that theroy the universe would not "keep" expanding. It some point it will eventiley pull every bit of matter apart.
Maybe bouncing 'colapsing' upon its self causing strong nuclie and weak to colide at light speed and cause another big bang? This is just my own lil cross pollination of big bang and big bounce theroy. Both which I find very interesting
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WhiskeyClone
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: AnastomosisJihad]
#7887431 - 01/16/08 07:10 AM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
AnastomosisJihad said:
Maybe this section of the universe the Milkyway inhabits is expanding while the the whole universe maintains equilibrium. Like a small whirlpool in a river, or like the wind under an airplane's wing, the little bubble of universe we can see might be expanding while the whole thing swirls in another direction.
Almost all other galaxies have been observed to be moving away from us.
Quote:
I think the big bang is bogus anyway. It assumes that something comes from nothing, violating the principle of conservation of energy
The law of conservation of energy is a property of our universe. It came into being as the universe did. There was no 'nothing' for the universe (something) to spring from. Time began as space began.
Just because we don't fully understand something does not mean it is magical.
-------------------- Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it. ~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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AnastomosisJihad
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#7887765 - 01/16/08 10:25 AM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Almost all other galaxies have been observed to be moving away from us.
Our little expanding bubble might include all detectable galaxies.
Quote:
The law of conservation of energy is a property of our universe. It came into being as the universe did. There was no 'nothing' for the universe (something) to spring from. Time began as space began.
This assumes the big bang to be an uncaused first cause of everything, an event that began the physical universe that is itself not bound by the laws of physics. Big bang theory suffers the same philosophical problems as saying God created the universe.
Quote:
Just because we don't fully understand something does not mean it is magical.
I meant magical in the sense of explanation. If one cannot give a scientific explanation for the big bang, and one cannot, then other explanations appear magical. Magical in the sense of not natural.
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Asante
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: Asante]
#7887867 - 01/16/08 11:09 AM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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As for myself, I believe in the following:
The Void is infinitely vast, there is no end to it. Contained within it is an infinite amount of energy. This energy cannot be lost, nor can extra energy come into being. This basic energy can come together and form manifestations of other forms of energy that are composed of it. In time however, these manifestations will fall apart again until the Void and the most basic energy remains.
Very very rarely, which means spread very thinly across the Void, there is a kind of super-manifestation. This is where a shitton of basic energy comes together and forms a Big Bang, which gives rise to a material universe with particles and light.
A Big Bang, like a star, is bound to certain size limits, lower and upper, to the amount of energy involved. Because given physical constants only allow limited manifestations, there is only a finite number of shapes and courses a Big Bang universe can take. And, also there is a finite number of Big Bang variations possible. Eventually the last bit created by any Big Bang shall dissolve into the Void once more.
Because time is infinite and change the only constant, what you get is that every possibility within every Big Bang, and every Big Bang itself, is manifest infinitely, both in time as in space.
And we're smack in the middle of that 
You have a sense that you're you. This particular sense may be present in an overwhelming number of lifeforms. You get to live all those lives over and over into infinity. Just like that everything that can possibly happen to Sodium silicate will happen to it infinitely, so will every possible life you can live be yours.
Everything which is possible is in a constant oscillation between existence and non-existence, and will be that forever. It goes for a particular rock, it goes for you in all of your guises, it goes for a thought, a pattern of protons in a star, for love, for a galaxy and it goes for any given Big Bang - eternal motion between being and not being.
Voila, eternal life, all your dreams will be fulfilled, discomfort is only temporary and the Adventure never ends! Want fries with that?
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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maggotz


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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: Asante]
#7887959 - 01/16/08 11:48 AM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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no, i don't want fries with that.
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Madtowntripper
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: Asante]
#7888297 - 01/16/08 01:38 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Wiccan_Seeker said: As for myself, I believe in the following:
Voila, eternal life, all your dreams will be fulfilled, discomfort is only temporary and the Adventure never ends! Want fries with that?
Is this just your personal philosophical cosmology?
Or do you have some proof for these beliefs?
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Asante
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: Madtowntripper]
#7889647 - 01/16/08 06:46 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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No one can look past the Singularity and have proof, otherwise it wouldn't be a Singularity to begin with. One of us may be correct (I hope its me because I'd LOVE a universe of neverending experience) but we can never have certainty.
I've assumed a few givens that are not overly unreasonable in the light of contemporary science and logic supplied me with a Whole I can live with. The above post is an interpretation of part of what I believe in, typed out in a sleep deprived state 
No one here has proof, if any of us knew what caused the big bang and could prove it, it would be an instant nobel prize.
If time is eternal and energy is in neverending flux within a finite set of possibilities, neverending reincarnation in all possible guises is the nature of everyone and everything that can possibly exist. As for proof, science "isn't there yet" but it may very well go in that direction because there don't seem to be many directions an universe ultimately can take.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
Edited by Asante (01/16/08 06:53 PM)
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sleepy
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: Asante]
#7889819 - 01/16/08 07:20 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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i think its quaint ol chaps, that we call it the "singularity" in the past tense. how do we know we aren't still in a singularity, a singularity that is just getting larger?
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DieCommie


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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: sleepy]
#7889929 - 01/16/08 07:43 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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Because thats not the definition of a singularity. How do we know we arent in a singularity? For starters, a singularity has infinite density and we do not have infinite density.
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sleepy
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: DieCommie]
#7890007 - 01/16/08 07:57 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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how do you know
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DieCommie


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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: sleepy]
#7890077 - 01/16/08 08:10 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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Because thats how its defined... Words are invented by humans, and their definitions are invented by humans. The definition of singularity, as defined by humans, is necessarily a point of infinite density. If its not infinitely dense, its not a singularity... plain and simple.
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WhiskeyClone
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: AnastomosisJihad]
#7890095 - 01/16/08 08:14 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Our little expanding bubble might include all detectable galaxies.
Maybe, I just don't see a reason to believe in an 'expanding bubble' except to make a provision for rejecting the big bang theory.
Quote:
Quote:
The law of conservation of energy is a property of our universe. It came into being as the universe did. There was no 'nothing' for the universe (something) to spring from. Time began as space began.
This assumes the big bang to be an uncaused first cause of everything, an event that began the physical universe that is itself not bound by the laws of physics.
This is what's so fascinating about the big bang; everything we know about how things work in the universe (the laws of physics; "nothing happens without a cause") only apply to the universe. If the big bang had a cause, that cause is not part of our universe, because our universe did not exist.
Quote:
Big bang theory suffers the same philosophical problems as saying God created the universe.
Can you elaborate?
Quote:
I meant magical in the sense of explanation. If one cannot give a scientific explanation for the big bang, and one cannot, then other explanations appear magical. Magical in the sense of not natural.
Science is only what we know so far. There are undoubtedly phenomena in our universe we do not understand or do not know about; that does not mean they are not natural.
-------------------- Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it. ~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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sleepy
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: DieCommie]
#7890099 - 01/16/08 08:15 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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yeah i know what it means but how do you know i'm not infinitely dense? i mean, you might say because i don't weigh an infinite amount, because if i did then i would cause the earth to wobble or something right? but the earth is also infinitely dense, so thats why it doesn't happen.
density is based on the assumption that all things are separate ya know, and you know what they say about assumptions. "assumption is the mother of invention" invention of bullshit ideas that is
Edited by sleepy (01/16/08 08:20 PM)
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maggotz


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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: sleepy]
#7890108 - 01/16/08 08:17 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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are you serious?
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sleepy
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: maggotz]
#7890128 - 01/16/08 08:21 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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phil lesh's guitar is plenty able to move galaxies
Edited by sleepy (01/16/08 08:52 PM)
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sleepy
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: sleepy]
#7890187 - 01/16/08 08:32 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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:but i still could be right:
every genieous is derided in his time
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AnastomosisJihad
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#7890397 - 01/16/08 09:15 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Big bang theory suffers the same philosophical problems as saying God created the universe.
Can you elaborate?
When people say "God created the universe", a standard response is "Who created God?".
"The big bang is the source of all energy in the universe." - "What is the source of the big bang?"
The big bang is just an hypothesis, one that cannot account for anomalies, like "dark energy". It's not a fact like dinosaurs existed is a fact; there are no BigBang bones. There is just a whole lot of stuff flying through space in a pattern consistent with a large explosion. Big bounce can just as easily explain the pattern but it does not rely on positing a state of affairs which is impossible.
"infinite density" is not possible. It's just a trick of language and an indication that our theory has gone wrong.
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Cubie
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: Cubie]
#7890412 - 01/16/08 09:19 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Cubie said: Sorry but but that's your opinion.and everyone knows what those are like. Everyone thinks in such differnt ways that 'you' couldn't imagin. How someone else thinks. So just because they have a better understanding doesn't make it wrong.
Yup
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Newbie
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: Cubie]
#7890451 - 01/16/08 09:29 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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This is probably my most favorite topic to think and talk about. I could go on forever... but then again that's the point .
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DieCommie


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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: AnastomosisJihad]
#7890476 - 01/16/08 09:33 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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"The big bang is the source of all energy in the universe." - "What is the source of the big bang?" The big bang is not the source of all energy, its a process through which the universe went. Big bang theory makes no claims as to the source of the energy.
It's not a fact like dinosaurs existed is a fact; there are no BigBang bones. Thats funny, because often the cosmic background radiation is directly compared to relics and fossils from the big bang.
"infinite density" is not possible. It's just a trick of language and an indication that our theory has gone wrong. Your right its not possible. Its a limit. Similar to limits in math, as you go back in time farther and farther the density gets greater and greater. It never reaches infinity, but keeps approaching it. Infinity is the destination that the density approaches as the time goes backward in the bang. Thats what is meant by a singularity.
The same things happen in black holes. The closer and closer you get to the center the more space-time gets warped and the more the density approaches infinity.
Of course these kinds of things dont seem possible, but evidence supports it. Does the universe have to conform to an evolved species' intuition? Of course not.
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snoot
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: DieCommie]
#7893348 - 01/17/08 02:57 PM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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you guys are not factoring in jesus
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snoot
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: snoot]
#7893352 - 01/17/08 02:58 PM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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Ideally the more we learn about the nature of thing's, naturally the more we wonder.
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∞ I am incapable of conceiving infinity, and yet I do not accept finity. - Simone de Beauvoir -
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AnastomosisJihad
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: DieCommie]
#7901386 - 01/19/08 12:09 PM (16 years, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
"The big bang is the source of all energy in the universe." - "What is the source of the big bang?"
The big bang is not the source of all energy, its a process through which the universe went. Big bang theory makes no claims as to the source of the energy.
Then what is the source of the energy? This is the op's question.
Quote:
It's not a fact like dinosaurs existed is a fact; there are no BigBang bones.
Thats funny, because often the cosmic background radiation is directly compared to relics and fossils from the big bang.
Background radiation is consistent with a big explosion, but there are other ways to account for the microwaves which saturate all of space; aether theories come to mind.
Quote:
"infinite density" is not possible. It's just a trick of language and an indication that our theory has gone wrong. Your right its not possible.
Its a limit. Similar to limits in math, as you go back in time farther and farther the density gets greater and greater. It never reaches infinity, but keeps approaching it. Infinity is the destination that the density approaches as the time goes backward in the bang. Thats what is meant by a singularity.
I find it very odd that we can measure the mass of a black hole by its gravitational effects on nearby objects, and yet continue to speak of black holes as singularities with infinite density.
Are we trying to say that black holes are point charges of variable mass that occupy a 'place' in the space-time continuum yet do not occupy any 'space'?
One can just as easily explain the empirical evidence by positing that black holes are supper dense chunks of stuff which take up space like everything else. Sure we don't know how much space they take up, but it seems to me the black hole at the center of a spiral galaxy probably takes up more space than a small one formed by a supernova. The epistemic jump to singularity is unwarranted by the evidence.
Furthermore, a physical singularity is not possible. The metaphysical nature of mathematics allows us to tolerate infinitesimal things (points), but all material things take up space. I suspect point charge theory is an error produced by supposing too strict a correspondence between how things really are and how we describe them in the language of math.
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Annom
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: AnastomosisJihad]
#7901425 - 01/19/08 12:19 PM (16 years, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
I find it very odd that we can measure the mass of a black hole by its gravitational effects on nearby objects, and yet continue to speak of black holes as singularities with infinite density.
When using Newtons law of gravitation, the density of a spherical mass doesn't matter (as long as it is radially symmetrical). We can model the earth as a mass with infinite density and as long as it has a finite mass it wouldn't affect our simulation of objects orbiting earth. That is exactly what we often do, modelling celestial objects as point masses, a point is a singularity. This, of course, doesn't mean it is reality.
That's just a short comment on that and I agree that it is odd, infinity and singularity are weird concepts.
Edited by Annom (01/19/08 12:48 PM)
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AnastomosisJihad
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: Annom]
#7901658 - 01/19/08 01:07 PM (16 years, 13 days ago) |
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This is only an approximation, based on the not-true assumption that massive rotating bodies are spherical. A useful fiction no doubt, but all big spinning things wobble a little bit.
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deimya
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: Annom]
#7901679 - 01/19/08 01:12 PM (16 years, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
AnastomosisJihad said:
Strictly speaking, we can never know how things "really are" and it is somewhat meaningless to ask for it. The only thing we have are models and we speak of "things" by speaking of concepts included into the model and which behave the most the way nature does, nothing more. If you really want to postulate some higher order of existence attached to concepts, then I would like to say that epistemologically, electrons did not "exists" in 1833, and they will probably be replaced by something completely different by 2133 the same way the phlogiston does not "exist" anymore.
Science is not there to say what is and what is not in a metaphysical sense, it is there to make sense of stuff around us. All the rest is ideological, as in materialism vs. supernatural, etc. This is the position of materialism and is to me just as void as asking if gods exist or not; both are encrusted in the ideas of the time. Materialism is not science since science changes with time and materialism endows present concepts with a definitive, yet superfluous external existence. Both are rooted in insecurities related to uncertainties. The mystery is much more interesting.
Now, black holes are solutions of Einstein's equations of motion in general relativity. It so happens that there's a metric singularity at the middle of the black hole (for the simplest case which is the uncharged, non-rotating, spherically symmetric black hole, aka Schwartzschild black hole), that is a divergence in the metric. The fact is, general relativity is not a final theory, or more conservatively, it does not mix well with quantum theory and thus it does not take into account quantum effects at small scales. Therefore this singularity is most probably not physical indeed and these things are simply left as problems for the future.
And finally, always remember that proponents of aether theories accuse the establishment first, and then try to argue for their theory in some fishy ways. Most importantly they never produced any measurable predictions, and so are most probably severe crackpottery. My advice to them is to at least drop the aether term altogether since it is much too charged historically.
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deimya
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: deimya]
#7901784 - 01/19/08 01:36 PM (16 years, 13 days ago) |
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To answer OP's question, to understand what's beyond the singularity, we'll have to have a physical knowledge devoid of a-priori time, space and causality. And I'm sure the physically shady concept of singularity/bing-bang will then be replaced with something much more interesting. General relativity relates together space, time and classical matter and energy. My bet is that time and causality are emergent and that the way we make sense of the world, i.e. causality, energy, etc, is related to the way thoughts emerge. After all our brain is is made of the same stuff it is trying to understand.
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Cubie
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Re: Beyond the Singularity - What do you think caused the Big Bang? [Re: deimya]
#7901854 - 01/19/08 01:51 PM (16 years, 13 days ago) |
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the universe is like a plant. singularity the seed.... grow. and die and restart
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