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InvisibleVisualLearner
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Registered: 01/11/08
Posts: 459
Icelander this ones for you
    #7865013 - 01/11/08 01:18 PM (16 years, 21 days ago)


What you think of this? I am on your side on this subject but anyway any thoughts?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Icelander this ones for you [Re: VisualLearner]
    #7865056 - 01/11/08 01:31 PM (16 years, 21 days ago)

'Ethics, there, there; trust me":lol:

I think he's confusing instincts with ethics. He says to kill is wrong and we know it and then says that all animals have these ethics. Well bears kill animals without remorse as far as we know and they kill other bears also.

He seemed a little confused to me.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleVisualLearner
Stranger

Registered: 01/11/08
Posts: 459
Re: Icelander this ones for you [Re: Icelander]
    #7865278 - 01/11/08 02:22 PM (16 years, 21 days ago)

yes i agree, just wanted to hear your thoughts on the matter. So where is a good knowledgeable source for information on this?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Icelander this ones for you [Re: VisualLearner]
    #7865292 - 01/11/08 02:25 PM (16 years, 21 days ago)

Information on what?:confused:

My book isn't out yet.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleVisualLearner
Stranger

Registered: 01/11/08
Posts: 459
Re: Icelander this ones for you [Re: Icelander]
    #7865320 - 01/11/08 02:30 PM (16 years, 21 days ago)

Haha, no the belief that this guy is debating against. But when your book does come out i wanna be the first with a copy:tongue2::mushroom2:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
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Re: Icelander this ones for you [Re: VisualLearner]
    #7865335 - 01/11/08 02:34 PM (16 years, 21 days ago)

Oh, oh, oh! Now dedicate a thread to me. Icelander has enough already. :hissyfit:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Icelander this ones for you [Re: VisualLearner]
    #7865351 - 01/11/08 02:36 PM (16 years, 21 days ago)

Well of course there's Nietzsche if you have the stomach for it.:( I prefer to just read selected quotes from him.

Here's a book that isn't Nihilism proper but does a great job of getting to the root of things. It's called Crazy Wisdom I don't remember the author right now. Your public library should have a copy.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Icelander this ones for you [Re: Icelander]
    #7865362 - 01/11/08 02:40 PM (16 years, 21 days ago)

The Essential Crazy Wisdom

The Essential Crazy Wisdom by Wes Nisker


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Icelander this ones for you [Re: VisualLearner]
    #7865374 - 01/11/08 02:43 PM (16 years, 21 days ago)



--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinekrin
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Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 370
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
Re: Icelander this ones for you [Re: Icelander]
    #7867498 - 01/12/08 12:21 AM (16 years, 21 days ago)

I enjoyed that link


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Icelander this ones for you [Re: VisualLearner]
    #7868106 - 01/12/08 04:04 AM (16 years, 20 days ago)

*pushes Icelander out of the way*

This guy makes a huge error in conflating prescriptive ethics with descriptive ethics. Prescriptive ethics, by definition, is not objective. To use Hume's terms, it deals with the relations of ideas rather than matters of fact. Prescriptive ethics asks how a being should behave. Descriptive ethics, on the other hand, asks how a being actually behave.

Psychologists have recently begun studying how human beings decide between what they consider moral and immoral. It is true that human beings have areas of the brain devoted to morality and social emotions. (If you're interested, I suggest reading Moral Minds by Marc Hauser.) But, this only tells us how and why human beings behave like they do. Whether or not they should behave in this way is an entirely different question. There are probably some old 'programs' left over from before civilization began that no longer serve much of a purpose nowadays.

In short, this person is committing the is-ought fallacy and/or an appeal to nature fallacy.


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Icelander this ones for you [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7868436 - 01/12/08 09:23 AM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

In short, this person is committing the is-ought fallacy and/or an appeal to nature fallacy.




I was just about to add something in relation to this exact point.

He compares other animals to humans and I'll agree to a certain extent, but humans are more social. And... humans, to me, appear to more often to override their natural instincts in lieu of the affects of social norms, peers, etc...

bottom line, this kid needs to goto a proctologist to help him find his head.


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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InvisibleJack Albertson
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Re: Icelander this ones for you [Re: Cracka_X]
    #7868453 - 01/12/08 09:28 AM (16 years, 20 days ago)

i havent read everything in this thread, but i'd like to ask you a question. What makes humans more social than insects, or dolphins?


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Man is timid and apologetic; he is no longer upright; he dares not say "I think," "I am," but quotes some saint or sage. He is ashamed before the blade of grass or the blowing rose.Man postpones or remembers; he does not live in the present, but with reverted eye laments the past, or, heedless of the riches that surround him, stands on tiptoe to foresee the future. He cannot be happy and strong until he too lives with nature in the present, above time
TRANSCEND



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Offlinekrin
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Re: Icelander this ones for you [Re: Jack Albertson]
    #7868560 - 01/12/08 10:06 AM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Gauging the social urge amongst any species would be quite difficult, its really our ability to search, organize,develop and perpetuate social interactions that make us more socially adept.

So the snail could actually be the most socially inclined species, they just dont know what the fuck they are doing


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InvisibleJack Albertson
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Re: Icelander this ones for you [Re: krin]
    #7868585 - 01/12/08 10:14 AM (16 years, 20 days ago)

what about the social structure of wolves? My point is a lot of military strategy was taken from the animal world. Animals are for more complexed than us humans give credit for. We may be intelligent but our shortcomings keep us from being most intelligent


--------------------
Man is timid and apologetic; he is no longer upright; he dares not say "I think," "I am," but quotes some saint or sage. He is ashamed before the blade of grass or the blowing rose.Man postpones or remembers; he does not live in the present, but with reverted eye laments the past, or, heedless of the riches that surround him, stands on tiptoe to foresee the future. He cannot be happy and strong until he too lives with nature in the present, above time
TRANSCEND



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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Icelander this ones for you [Re: Jack Albertson]
    #7873860 - 01/13/08 03:29 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

ts727 said:
i havent read everything in this thread, but i'd like to ask you a question. What makes humans more social than insects, or dolphins?




aye, this could be a really long answer but I'm gonna try n simplify it.

Humans and other primates are more social, in general, than other animals and insects.

Why do I say that? Humans, to a greater degree, are conditioned from birth and are at the whim of society, peers, parents and so on as to how they 'should' act. Whereas insects and rats are more reliant upon their hormones to tell which one is to do what. (ex. sex and eating)

I have no idea about dolphins, but there's no mystery that they're smart and social and the same with wolves. But from what I've read of rats and rheses monkeys is that their behavior is mostly controlled by hormones. And treatment of opposing hormones to a certain sex will make the animal act like the opposite sex socially and sexually. Whereas humans have the predisposition of everybody conditioning the child to act like a certain gender, male or female, based on their sex.

Humans can be conditioned to repress a certain type of behavior, while animals are at the whim of their hormones and are limited. I'm sure there's exceptions but based on the rats and rheses monkeys, this is what I believe.

Not saying they're not social, but humans are much more flexible and varied in the social and intellectual realm.


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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