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Invisibledumbfounded1600
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True Incubation Temps For Cubes(Discussion)
    #7864335 - 01/11/08 10:34 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I have found of testing incubation temps that the 75-78F is a better incubation temp then 82-86. They say its 85-86 as stated in The Mushroom Cultivator, but actually 81+ increases thermophilics(") . Paul Stamets has it listed as 86 in TMC, but that was based on a flawed agar study where heat isnt generated! AND has been further research in the past 30 years has indicated it's even lower. Don't exceed 78F with grains because grain jars generate more heat.

Edited by dumbfounded1600 (03/17/08 07:24 PM)

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Offlinedonpatch
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Re: True Incubation Temps [Re: dumbfounded1600]
    #7864353 - 01/11/08 10:39 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I dont ever go above 83 and i routinely stay in the 78-80f range. never heard of these thermophilics until you told me but then again i never read Stamet's book.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: True Incubation Temps [Re: donpatch]
    #7864685 - 01/11/08 11:54 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I've been saying that for years. My petri dish studies a few years ago showed that cubensis reaches peak linear growth between 75F and 80F, then is flat until 83F, where it starts to slow down. Mycelium at 86F is growing at about 2/3 the speed of mycelium at 80F. In addition, the higher temps tend to stimulate thermophic molds and bacteria.

There's LOT'S of good information in TMC, but that 86F figure is one of the errors.
RR


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: dumbfounded1600]
    #7864688 - 01/11/08 11:54 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

This thread was moved from Advanced Mycology.

Reason:
Moved to mushroom cultivation

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Invisibledumbfounded1600
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7864764 - 01/11/08 12:15 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Thank you RR....finally someone who agrees...most of the people in IRC say 86F Increases the speed in about 9 days.....but I've had people come in and say its been 9 days and there jars are Fully Colonized at 75-78F...Mycology has come a long way in the past 10 years with new information and better knowledge....I'm glad I made this post...I'll be making new ones soon...have to get all my information in a paragraph first.

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Offlinedonpatch
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: dumbfounded1600]
    #7864772 - 01/11/08 12:17 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

My jars are g2g and they are 95% at 9 days. Multispore seemed to take forever though :laugh:


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OfflinePr0_X
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: dumbfounded1600]
    #7864783 - 01/11/08 12:21 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

It is very true, exceeding 83f does nothing more but encourage bacteria/mold growth, rye jars are never truly sterile once introduced to open air (having the filter uncovered) and working with a window of opportunity say 25 days being mine you generally want them to incubate at 75-78f, if it's a isolate your working with the growth will be quick anyways so just adding that extra heat for a small performance boost doesn't make much sense when most of the time it leads to wet spot.

I agree with you fully :thumbup:


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InvisibleBlutjager
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: Pr0_X]
    #7864808 - 01/11/08 12:27 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Outside of living in an igloo or being too poor to heat your house I cant think of a reason why your normal room temp shouldn't be just fine for the mushrooms,even "Incubating" in one of the colder rooms I have gives better results than back when I was new enough to think I needed a tub in tub

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: Blutjager]
    #7864988 - 01/11/08 01:09 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Well, not to dispute anybody, but I always had best results at 80-81F. Colonization was much faster at 80F than 70-72F. So assuming that a jar might generate 5F or so 85F seems like the optimal temp.

Linear growth in petri dishes in an incubator is a pretty easy thing to measure, so why are we disputing this?

Cubensis is a sub-tropical species that is fairly well studied, so it seems strange that we would be debating optimum colonization temps.

Somebody needs to do another study I guess.


-FF

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Invisibledumbfounded1600
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: fastfred]
    #7865072 - 01/11/08 01:35 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Colonization was much faster at 80F than 70-72F.........................................................................................try 75-78F...there isnt much of a differnce between that and 82-86?...anything above 81F has been proven that it slows down growth

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: dumbfounded1600]
    #7868389 - 01/12/08 09:01 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I guess someone needs to repeat the linear growth experiments. We also need some temperature measurments from the center of jars.

Personally I experienced faster colonization up until 83-84F, which is as high as I went.

I haven't grown for quite a long time so I can't do the experiments, but maybe someone else will step up.


-FF

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: fastfred]
    #7868445 - 01/12/08 09:26 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

When I did it there was ten petri dishes colonizing at each temperature, in separate containers. I went through well over 200 petri dishes of mycelium for no other reason than to determine the temperature that stimulates fastest growth, other factors being equal. That was a far more controlled study than the one reported over 20 years ago. If someone else wants to repeat the experiment, go for it. I consider the matter closed. Paul doesn't even repeat that 86F figure, which someone else sent him.
RR


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Invisibledumbfounded1600
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7868526 - 01/12/08 09:51 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Will do, RR ... but first I'm going to write Paul Stamets and see what he says about it.

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7868876 - 01/12/08 12:25 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
When I did it there was ten petri dishes colonizing at each temperature, in separate containers. I went through well over 200 petri dishes of mycelium for no other reason than to determine the temperature that stimulates fastest growth, other factors being equal. That was a far more controlled study than the one reported over 20 years ago. If someone else wants to repeat the experiment, go for it. I consider the matter closed. Paul doesn't even repeat that 86F figure, which someone else sent him.
RR




That's great RR. Could you share the data? It would be nice to prepare a graph from it to replace that one that lists 86 as optimal that's still floating around.


-FF

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: fastfred] * 1
    #7869152 - 01/12/08 01:52 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

It was all posted on the other board. I don't know if the threads are still there or not. Bottom line was the tubs that had petri dishes between 75F and 81F showed no difference in growth. Below 75F, and above 81F growth slowed down, with a rapid drop in colonization speed below 70F and above 83F. At 86F, a petri dish would be 2/3 colonized, while its sister at 75F would be fully colonized. Rate of growth at 86F was exactly the same as rate of growth at 72F, with fastest growth as said, occurring between 75F and 81F.

Note that these tests were for linear growth in the two dimensional plane of a petri dish. In three dimensonal space such as in grain jars or bulk substrates, the effects of thermogenesis need to be considered, so ambient temps should be lowered slightly to compensate.
RR


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Invisibledumbfounded1600
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7870713 - 01/12/08 08:14 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

sending my letter out Monday!

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Invisibledumbfounded1600
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: dumbfounded1600]
    #7940487 - 01/27/08 02:15 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

:laugh: My letter should be here....I know he won't even write a letter back about cubensis...so I wrote What's your intake on incubation temps for poop loving species in contrast to thermoplicism

Edited by dumbfounded1600 (01/27/08 02:17 PM)

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Invisibledumbfounded1600
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: dumbfounded1600]
    #7948516 - 01/28/08 11:35 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Well...Paul Stamets dissed my letter...so that sucks....o well...I still stand by these temps

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Invisibledumbfounded1600
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: dumbfounded1600]
    #7984828 - 02/05/08 09:59 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

O YES IT IS COMING BACK....TRUE INCUBATION TEMPS FOR CUBES...LET THE BATTLES BEGIN! PLEASE NO FLAMING...ANY FLAMING BY ANYONE WILL RESULT IN THIS THREAD BEING CLOSED

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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: dumbfounded1600]
    #8155691 - 03/16/08 11:20 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

I find 80F room temp makes Q's colonize from g2g in 8 days and 11+ at 74 and below. Dunno the temp of the actual jars contents, but I have found 80F works quickly for me.

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Invisibledumbfounded1600
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: shevanel] * 1
    #8155724 - 03/16/08 11:32 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

74F yeah it'll slow but not by much. The ideal room temperature is 75-78F for cubes, though. It's better then sweating the mycelium though and causing another risk of contamintion/bacteria as those thrive in the higher temperatures. They'll colonize a day or three faster at 80-82F though.

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InvisibleRoadkillM
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: dumbfounded1600]
    #8155745 - 03/16/08 11:39 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

81 degrees F. is the best temp to colonize jars the fastest at.


tc


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Invisibledumbfounded1600
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: Roadkill]
    #8155817 - 03/17/08 12:02 AM (16 years, 5 days ago)

How many days does it take you roadkill. I agree, though.

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InvisibleRoadkillM
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: dumbfounded1600]
    #8155856 - 03/17/08 12:18 AM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Time varies depending on what I'm inoculating with...
multi-spore, LC, agar wedges, or a G2G transfer.

and if I'm using grow bags or jars, and what size jars.

and even which kind of substrate I'm using.


tc


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Laterz, Road

Who the hell you callin crazy?
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Brainiac said:
PM the names with on there names, that means they have mushrooms for sale.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: dumbfounded1600]
    #8155943 - 03/17/08 12:57 AM (16 years, 5 days ago)

This is an old debate... and tonight, I find it rather silly.

I have incubated at 80+...  and it may be more effective than room temp... BUT not MUCH more... not at all... AND incubation allows for many more ways to fuck somethig up. Period.

I have tried room temp... and it is better against contams... but it is a little bit slower... IMO.

But recently, I moved to the sub-tropics... and...

I NOW suspect a varying heat cycle... representing a nice hot day and a perfectly warm night... I think this might prove more successful than incubation OR room temp. I suspect temps ranging from 70-86 degrees... warming and cooling in 12 hour cycles... would be best. But hey, I ain't no scientist. Then again, HEY HEY!!! This ain't rocket science folks.

Cubes have incubated themselves outdoors in sub-tropical climates for far longer than humans have cultivated them. Simply simulate THAT environment... or at the very least keep temps stable and within parameters. :wink:

Once colonized... bring the light and the water... to simulate sun and rain. You'll have plenty of fatties... just give 'em what they like... when they like it.


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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: Rose]
    #8156122 - 03/17/08 03:37 AM (16 years, 5 days ago)

There is an optimal temperature for every organism that gives optimal growth rate. Standard lab practice is to incubate at optimal growth rate. This may be anywhere from 75-85F for cubes, but it's certainly above room temp.

Incubation temp has no effect on contamination rate. To say otherwise is to defy logic.


-FF

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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: fastfred]
    #8156677 - 03/17/08 10:14 AM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:

Incubation temp has no effect on contamination rate. To say otherwise is to defy logic.






I'm sorry, I was under the impression that the COOLER we keep our food, the longer it LASTS.

This is why HUMANS use REFRIGERATORS.

Temp DOES have an effect on contamination rate and to say OTHERWISE is to defy logic.


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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: Rose]
    #8156709 - 03/17/08 10:26 AM (16 years, 5 days ago)

I'm to new to know, but , My cam's seem to really like it warmer than the other strains.
Seems Ive seen it posted some where as well.
My Tc's didn't start well at 82 but took off at 77 to 78. So Id say to read about the starin your working with befor hand.

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Invisibledumbfounded1600
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: bigred]
    #8156738 - 03/17/08 10:36 AM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Depending on how much substrate because they generate their own heat by themselves.

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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: shevanel]
    #8157005 - 03/17/08 11:47 AM (16 years, 5 days ago)

If your cultivation room is at 68-78 you are golden for incubating and fruiting.


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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: shevanel]
    #8157022 - 03/17/08 11:51 AM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Just moved my Temp down from 85 to 79.

Thanks For the INfo! :laugh:


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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: SomeScienceStuff]
    #8157091 - 03/17/08 12:07 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

The biggest problem with incubation is SO MANY people do something wrong... and cook their jars. There is at least one n00b per day who posts with such an issue. Remove incubation from the process, and all of those n00b mistakes simply go away.

There is no need to incubate unless your temp is consistently below 70... and even then, you don't need to incubate much warmer than 70.

Once your temps reach the 80's, you are creating a better environment for potential contams to thrive.

AND if you are using grain jars or substrate bags, really there is no need to incubate at all. Just shake your jars (or smoosh your bags) at the right times and colonization will be every bit as quick... at room temp. As they colonize, they'll begin to generate their own heat.

Incubation CAN help speed things up... if you do it right. BUT, MANY PEOPLE FUCK UP... TOO MANY. It is not worth the added cost, risk and effort just to save a day or two.. on a couple of half-pint cakes.

Only BULK PF growers should invest in an incubator... or people who live in very cold houses. Everybody else is better off without one.


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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: Rose]
    #8158721 - 03/17/08 07:04 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
Quote:

fastfred said:
Incubation temp has no effect on contamination rate. To say otherwise is to defy logic.




I'm sorry, I was under the impression that the COOLER we keep our food, the longer it LASTS.

This is why HUMANS use REFRIGERATORS.

Temp DOES have an effect on contamination rate and to say OTHERWISE is to defy logic.




Your leftovers in the fridge have nothing to do with the sterile technique used in mycology.

Perhaps you simply misunderstand the term "contaminated". If you have one spore or bacterium other than the desired organism your culture is contaminated.

Or perhaps you have not yet heard that the "spontaneous generation" theory has been disproven.

Heating something up by 10F can't magically generate life from nothing. Nor can cooling something down by 10F magically kill contaminants.


-FF

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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: fastfred]
    #8158762 - 03/17/08 07:15 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

i hate to keep a tangent going, but i'm gunna do it anyway.

if the possible contam also grew faster at the higher temp. it would be possible for increasing the temp to increase the contam rate. but that might take real experimentation.

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Invisibledumbfounded1600
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: crazyeddie]
    #8158784 - 03/17/08 07:19 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Anything beyond 81+ increases the chances of contamination/bacteria PERIOD. You'll see the difference in how fast you colonize a jar at 80-82F but you're taking a risk.

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Invisibledumbfounded1600
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: dumbfounded1600]
    #8158808 - 03/17/08 07:24 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Heating something up by 10F can't magically generate life from nothing. Nor can cooling something down by 10F magically kill contaminants.





So what you're saying is EX: If a green mold spore. Just ONE dropped into two jars. One incubating at 86F and one incubating at room temperature. Since the mycelium hasn't generated yet the green spore wouldn't colonize faster in the higher temps? As apposed to the one in room temperature. The one in higher temps wouldn't favor the green in the higher incubation temperature then the lower incubation temperature?

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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: dumbfounded1600]
    #8159114 - 03/17/08 08:33 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

So what you're saying is EX: If a green mold spore. Just ONE dropped into two jars. One incubating at 86F and one incubating at room temperature. Since the mycelium hasn't generated yet the green spore wouldn't colonize faster in the higher temps? As apposed to the one in room temperature. The one in higher temps wouldn't favor the green in the higher incubation temperature then the lower incubation temperature?




In your example the spore is alive, meaning that you will have unintended, unwanted living organisms in your culture, meaning that it is contaminated. While in some cases you might not care it is still a contaminated culture.

By not finding and eliminating contaminated cultures you are simply masking sloppy or improper technique. By not correcting your methods you end up losing more in the long run.

In the case of trich by not incubating you are simply delaying germination and/or growth until the substrate is in your FC. There it can do far more damage and has wasted more "jar time" than if you had caught it earlier during incubation. Trich parasites myc so you can't simply out grow or overgrow it.

In the case of non-parasitic fungal contaminates or bacteria perhaps you can out-compete them by not giving them the advantages of a higher temp, but that's hardly optimal. IMHO it's better to catch contamination as soon as possible and eliminate it rather than fight to save questionable material.

Conventional lab wisdom is that if you are using sterile technique you grow at the optimal temp for your organism. If you are trying to isolate from contaminated material then you may want to grow at temps disfavoring your presumed contaminates.

I'm not sure why there's all this incubation hating going on. It seems like if one respected expert comes out against something everyone jumps on the bandwagon like it's gospel, all despite the fact that growers have known the benefits of incubation and used it for decades with great success.

There are plenty of reasons why you might not want to incubate, and there's certainly no requirement, but if you have the skill and resources to do it properly there's no reason not to and plenty of benefits to be had.


-FF

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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: fastfred]
    #8159936 - 03/17/08 11:16 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

If you'd read this thread again, you'd see I think incubation works... but it isn't worth the effort for most growers... and it causes more harm than good for many n00bs. I bet 1/3 to 1/2 of all n00bs who fuck up... fuck up because of a shitty incubator.

I've been championing room temp since long before RR was a regular poster... room temp works fine. And it is way easier.

Gotta' go... Guiness is calling.


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Invisibledumbfounded1600
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: Rose]
    #8161704 - 03/18/08 10:53 AM (16 years, 4 days ago)

lol Carventes.

fastfred - 86F isn't the right incubation temperature though. Paul Stamets didn't write that nor now does he agree with it. He believes it's much much lower.

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Invisibledumbfounded1600
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: Roadkill]
    #8161726 - 03/18/08 10:58 AM (16 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Roadkill said:
Time varies depending on what I'm inoculating with...
multi-spore, LC, agar wedges, or a G2G transfer.

and if I'm using grow bags or jars, and what size jars.

and even which kind of substrate I'm using.


tc




Multispore and a fast rhizo agar wedge

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OfflineCiv
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: dumbfounded1600]
    #8161973 - 03/18/08 11:56 AM (16 years, 4 days ago)

Who thinks that temps don't effect what extras germinate in your jar?

You can take a jar (or peice of bread), put it in the frige.

Take another, put it on top of the fridge.

I got 20$ says you see some nasty funk in that hot jar/bread before you see anything inside the cold jar.

heat does help dormate spores germinate, it lets the grains let go of water that they do NOT need to let go of yet. Water being released, NOT to the rate of myc growth, but to the rate of the heat.

- If anyone thinks they destroy all the trillions of spores in the PCing process, you got another thing comming. Sure, you remove 950,000,000,000 of them , but you got another 50,000,000,000 hanging out. Comon' now, when a loaf of bread gets mold- that mold was already there 9 times outa 10.

What I think FF is saying is that SPEED is the factor with his example, he is saying he chooses to get it finished faster, leaving less open area vunerable to attacks, due to being finished faster. As in a slow, roomtemp, colonization can leave areas unattended for long periods of time, leaveing a window open for contam more so. Something I do not belive is better for grains, maybe for machine proccessed flours, but not whole berries.

If your rolling with PF-Cakes and such- you don't notice the heat play as much a part in contamination- BRF is broken down, EASY to penatrate to the core of each peice, as with a grain berrie, you have some depth and some mass you need to get through, just to get to the bad spores inside them.

thats why I stand by not adding any heat unless your temps are fluxing to much or its to damn cold.

But we're forgetting the facts about Bacteria and such. HEAT does play a part with your contaminates actually growing- (NO jar, has 0 mold spores, ever after PCing)

Heat lets the matter in the berries themself expand- water is released, core endorspores that have been idle, (OR would have been 'eaten' by the myc) now have a mico-climate that they can thrive in. With a colder jar, they don't get that- and by the time they do get to those cores, the myc is well on its rampage, taking them out as it gobbles up that area of medium.

When your in the contamination forum, MOST of the contams that are there, people are useing heat- more than whats needed.

And then we have bacteria- who loves heat-

I see more success with bulk grains when people do not add heat. People forget how much heat is generated by the proccess thats going on inside.


--------------------
"...Gal's seem to hate the thought of blending chicken shit in a blender.
So, wash it well afterwards & DON'T tell them..."  -Agar

Edited by Civ (03/18/08 11:57 AM)

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: Civ]
    #8162263 - 03/18/08 01:22 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

Thank you Civ, for saying so eloquently, what I have been trying to express this whole time.

I only wish to add one more point... which you only hinted at. I'll pick up where you left off. If you are working with quart jars, or bags... your myc will generate some heat of its own... and if you incubate above 80... you may be over-heating your substrate.

Sure, your myc will still grow... but it will may be slower, and the substrate will dry more quickly. Growth slows from overheating MORE DRASTICALLY than it slows due to underheating. And this gives bacteria a perfect, hot and humid environment to thrive within.

Incubation is not important unless you are a big scale grower... with a reliable incubator.

For everybody else, incubation costs too much and far too often, it does more harm than good. If a n00b wishes to have a better chance at success, for less money... they should skip the incubation process entirely.


--------------------
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: dumbfounded1600]
    #8163763 - 03/18/08 07:46 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

Current incubation of P.E.S.A.
Initially started 1/2 pint jars inoculated with 2cc of spore solution per jar, in normal room temp approximately 72-74 degrees. Moved jars to incubator with thermostat set at 84 degrees after 9 days with no sign of colonization, thought they were expired.
Today is day 16 and three of the five jars are colonizing well. Hoping for birthing opportunity with in 11-12 days.


--------------------
"The clearest way into the Universe is through a forest wilderness"
John Muir (1890)

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Invisibledumbfounded1600
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: AtrioVent]
    #8163879 - 03/18/08 08:10 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

Cubes a Cube...without it being an isolate there is no degree.

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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: dumbfounded1600]
    #8165168 - 03/19/08 01:08 AM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

You can take a jar (or piece of bread), put it in the fridge.

Take another, put it on top of the fridge.

I got 20$ says you see some nasty funk in that hot jar/bread before you see anything inside the cold jar.




I got $100 that any jar I sterilize is going to remain sterile weather you put it in the middle of Antarctica, Death Valley, or anywhere in between.

LOL, you got some serious problems if 10F is going to make or break you as far as sterility goes.

It really doesn't matter how many spores or contaminates are in a jar. They all reach 121C and they all die. Very few species of bacteria produce heat resistant endospores that can survive autoclaving and there are several ways to deal with those and they are generally quite fastidious anyways. There shouldn't be any present in rice flour. They should only be of concern in cereal grains.

You really don't want to be relying on 10F to save you from contamination germination. If you are then your technique or methods are not very good.

> fastfred - 86F isn't the right incubation temperature though.

As far as optimal temps RR, who did some research on this, has stated that optimal is 80-81F. I usually mention 80-85F because that is what I used back in the day when I lived in a more permissive area and 86F was cited in the literature as optimal. I just throw out 80-85F because I know it works great and I haven't had the chance to test 80 vs. 85F.

I agree that there is plenty of reason to steer noobs away from ghetto-rigging incubators with poor temperature control and then setting them at 86F. But when people ask what the best temperature for fastest growth is then the answer is around 80F. If they can get 75-85F reliably then they will be fine and there's no reason not to incubate if you want.


-FF

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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: fastfred]
    #11553566 - 11/30/09 05:53 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
Quote:

Cervantes said:
Quote:

fastfred said:
Incubation temp has no effect on contamination rate.  To say otherwise is to defy logic.




I'm sorry, I was under the impression that the COOLER we keep our food, the longer it LASTS.

This is why HUMANS use REFRIGERATORS.

Temp DOES have an effect on contamination rate and to say OTHERWISE is to defy logic.




Your leftovers in the fridge have nothing to do with the sterile technique used in mycology. 

Perhaps you simply misunderstand the term "contaminated".  If you have one spore or bacterium other than the desired organism your culture is contaminated.

Or perhaps you have not yet heard that the "spontaneous generation" theory has been disproven. 

Heating something up by 10F can't magically generate life from nothing.  Nor can cooling something down by 10F magically kill contaminants.


-FF




I'm going to have to agree with this post as regardless of what temp you are at, if you are in a position to allow contams in, whether or not the rate of contam spread is increased as soon as you have contams it's time to restart.

X

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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: xyra]
    #11553696 - 11/30/09 07:11 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Holy almost 2 year old thread batman!


--------------------
"“Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the Weather.""
—Bill Hicks


:guitarhero:

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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: Rose]
    #12539727 - 05/10/10 08:33 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
Quote:

fastfred said:

Incubation temp has no effect on contamination rate.  To say otherwise is to defy logic.






I'm sorry, I was under the impression that the COOLER we keep our food, the longer it LASTS.

This is why HUMANS use REFRIGERATORS.

Temp DOES have an effect on contamination rate and to say OTHERWISE is to defy logic.




I completely agree. In fact there are some contaminants that can ONLY live at temperatures higher than what are needed to grow mycelium (80-85). Anyways the growth rate for mycelium tops out at about 75 and remains the same until you reach 80 degrees. anything below 75deg or above 80deg slows growth dramatically. There it is. Happy 'shrooming:mushroom2:

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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: psilocyborg6311]
    #12539824 - 05/10/10 08:49 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

You guys seem like you're arguing but both sides make true statements.

Heat DOES have some sort of effect on contams

however, (FF's point:)

that should be irrelevant if you sterilize properly.


--------------------
:buddha2::buddha2::buddha2::buddha::buddha::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::aum::dj::aum::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::buddha::buddha::buddha2::buddha2::buddha2:

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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: Jack Attack]
    #12542137 - 05/11/10 09:43 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

however, (FF's point:)

that should be irrelevant if you sterilize properly.




There's a huge difference between someone in someone parroting strictly lab/book knowledge and those with real-world actual experience, and this long thread proves that more than anything.

The simple fact is, the 2 hour sterilization we give grains at 15 psi, is not complete sterilization.  Some bacterial endospores remain, and that's a fact.  Give them the temperature they require, and they'll come back to haunt you.  I sterilize thousands of substrates per month, so the learning curve is faster than most people here.  I keep my colonization room at 60f for this reason.  Sure it takes longer, but 100% success is worth the extra time it takes.
RR


--------------------
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #12550065 - 05/12/10 05:02 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
There's a huge difference between someone in someone parroting strictly lab/book knowledge and those with real-world actual experience, and this long thread proves that more than anything.




I'm just pointing out simple logic.  You're either contaminated or you're not.  Just because the contams bloom like hell when you increase the temps doesn't mean that the heat is increasing any contamination.  The whole point of sterile technique is to be sterile.  If you're just relying on temp manipulation to get around non-sterile technique then your not doing it right.

Quote:

The simple fact is, the 2 hour sterilization we give grains at 15 psi, is not complete sterilization.  Some bacterial endospores remain, and that's a fact.




2 hours?  WTF?  Quart jars sterilize just fine in under an hour.

If you prepare your media properly you should have a very low contam rate.  The endospores should be germinated and vulnerable to heat.  The whole endospore thing has been way over exaggerated anyways.

The method I used to use for rye was a ~48 hour soak in the fridge, drain well, put in quart jars, and sterilize for 1 hour at 15 psi.  Incubated at 86F the contamination rate would be about 5%.

One would assume a standard minimum contamination rate of 1%, and 1-3% from error or random contamination during inoculation.  So even a conservative estimate would put endospore contamination problems at 2-3%.  That's hardly worth mentioning, and certainly shouldn't be a consideration when choosing incubation temps.


-FF

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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: fastfred]
    #12551348 - 05/12/10 07:52 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
The simple fact is, the 2 hour sterilization we give grains at 15 psi, is not complete sterilization.  Some bacterial endospores remain, and that's a fact.  Give them the temperature they require, and they'll come back to haunt you.




I have to agree with RR. I'm new here, but anyone that has worked in a micro/myco laboratory knows that endospores can sometimes survive the autoclave. Not that you'll find this in your average bag of WBS, but there are even bacteria that thrive at autoclave temperature/pressure.

To quote a terrible movie, "Life will find a way". :wink:


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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: dumbfounded1600]
    #13239219 - 09/24/10 02:16 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I have the book paul staments does recommend 85-86 degrees F for cubes but i find that shitty incubators have ruined 3 batches with contams so im goin with room temp this time of pf tek puerto rican strain

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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: ElectroShaman]
    #13239637 - 09/24/10 08:06 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I prefer to let my jars sit for 2-4 weeks after being sterilized before inoculating them. They never grow anything until I inoculate them. Thats after about 70 minutes at 15PSI. Well maybe 1 in 200 will.

I do not incubate, though I had decent success when I first started when incubation was popular, it always worked out well set at 80. These days they just go in a closet which I try to keep the temps down on because its already warm in the room just from the greenhouses making their own heat. At room temp jars are done from G2G's in 6-7 days and from spores in about 14, give er take. So why incubate anyway..


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay

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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: ElectroShaman]
    #13239782 - 09/24/10 09:04 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ElectroShaman said:
I have the book paul staments does recommend 85-86 degrees F for cubes but i find that shitty incubators have ruined 3 batches with contams so im goin with room temp this time of pf tek puerto rican strain




No, he doesn't.  He says a mycelium temperature of 86(which includes the heat within produced by the mycelium-not the air temperature) resulted in fastest growth, but he got that info from someone else.  My own tests on petri dishes at controlled temperature showed growth was completely flat between 75F and 81F and then began to fall rapidly at 83F and above.

This is why we recommend room temperature colonization.  Since the procedures we use for sterilization in jars don't completely sterilize the grains, a lower temperature gives less chance of bacteria bloom in the two to three weeks it takes for the mycelium to get a full grip on the substrate.

Quote:

fastfred said:
   
Quote:


    The simple fact is, the 2 hour sterilization we give grains at 15 psi, is not complete sterilization.  Some bacterial endospores remain, and that's a fact.






2 hours?  WTF?  Quart jars sterilize just fine in under an hour.





Nonsense.  An empty quart jar  may sterilize great in under an hour, but that same jar full of grains after an hour at 15psi will not have reached 250F in the center of the substrate.  I've tested this with strips. 90 minutes is required, and even then you need to get the grains colonized as quickly as possible.

People seriously need to disregard what their biology teacher says about autoclave sterilization of scalpels, forceps, etc., when working with grains and listen to those of us who have been sterilizing grains for mushroom growing for many years.  We've already suffered the failures and developed the techniques we share with others for one reason: Because they work.
RR


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"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: Roadkill]
    #15903905 - 03/05/12 02:14 PM (12 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

Roadkill said:
81 degrees F. is the best temp to colonize jars the fastest at.


tc




what about for bags

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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: bigshack]
    #15904964 - 03/05/12 05:59 PM (12 years, 16 days ago)

Room temp. Give the mushers temto grow. Anything hotter will allow contams to have a chance.


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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #15905757 - 03/05/12 08:00 PM (12 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:

My own tests on petri dishes at controlled temperature showed growth was completely flat between 75F and 81F and then began to fall rapidly at 83F and above.

This is why we recommend room temperature colonization.




Having gained the knowledge and experience required to actually grow a mushroom from spore to fruit, I probably speak for all of us when I say that I consider myself very "scientific", if not an actual "scientist." That being said, you would probably do allot less explaining and repeating if you stopped dumbing down your reply to this temp question to "room temperature."  If mycelium stalls at 58 degrees or less, and your plates level off at 75, can we all agree that optimal colonization temps are 60-75 degrees air temperature?  With or without an incubator!

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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: kcbennie]
    #15942580 - 03/13/12 03:16 PM (12 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Bungalow Bill said:
If your cultivation room is at 68-78 you are golden for incubating and fruiting.



I have a question what is it incubating my btf cakes and they accidentally went above 90 degrees for about 20 minutes. I took them away from the heat source in cold im down to about 80 degrees did I screw my self?

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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: bubbarboss]
    #15963874 - 03/18/12 03:59 PM (12 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

bubbarboss said:
Quote:

Bungalow Bill said:
If your cultivation room is at 68-78 you are golden for incubating and fruiting.



I have a question what is it incubating my btf cakes and they accidentally went above 90 degrees for about 20 minutes. I took them away from the heat source in cold im down to about 80 degrees did I screw my self?




naw just get those temps down

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