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OfflineCiv
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: dumbfounded1600]
    #8161973 - 03/18/08 11:56 AM (16 years, 4 days ago)

Who thinks that temps don't effect what extras germinate in your jar?

You can take a jar (or peice of bread), put it in the frige.

Take another, put it on top of the fridge.

I got 20$ says you see some nasty funk in that hot jar/bread before you see anything inside the cold jar.

heat does help dormate spores germinate, it lets the grains let go of water that they do NOT need to let go of yet. Water being released, NOT to the rate of myc growth, but to the rate of the heat.

- If anyone thinks they destroy all the trillions of spores in the PCing process, you got another thing comming. Sure, you remove 950,000,000,000 of them , but you got another 50,000,000,000 hanging out. Comon' now, when a loaf of bread gets mold- that mold was already there 9 times outa 10.

What I think FF is saying is that SPEED is the factor with his example, he is saying he chooses to get it finished faster, leaving less open area vunerable to attacks, due to being finished faster. As in a slow, roomtemp, colonization can leave areas unattended for long periods of time, leaveing a window open for contam more so. Something I do not belive is better for grains, maybe for machine proccessed flours, but not whole berries.

If your rolling with PF-Cakes and such- you don't notice the heat play as much a part in contamination- BRF is broken down, EASY to penatrate to the core of each peice, as with a grain berrie, you have some depth and some mass you need to get through, just to get to the bad spores inside them.

thats why I stand by not adding any heat unless your temps are fluxing to much or its to damn cold.

But we're forgetting the facts about Bacteria and such. HEAT does play a part with your contaminates actually growing- (NO jar, has 0 mold spores, ever after PCing)

Heat lets the matter in the berries themself expand- water is released, core endorspores that have been idle, (OR would have been 'eaten' by the myc) now have a mico-climate that they can thrive in. With a colder jar, they don't get that- and by the time they do get to those cores, the myc is well on its rampage, taking them out as it gobbles up that area of medium.

When your in the contamination forum, MOST of the contams that are there, people are useing heat- more than whats needed.

And then we have bacteria- who loves heat-

I see more success with bulk grains when people do not add heat. People forget how much heat is generated by the proccess thats going on inside.


--------------------
"...Gal's seem to hate the thought of blending chicken shit in a blender.
So, wash it well afterwards & DON'T tell them..."  -Agar

Edited by Civ (03/18/08 11:57 AM)

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: Civ]
    #8162263 - 03/18/08 01:22 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

Thank you Civ, for saying so eloquently, what I have been trying to express this whole time.

I only wish to add one more point... which you only hinted at. I'll pick up where you left off. If you are working with quart jars, or bags... your myc will generate some heat of its own... and if you incubate above 80... you may be over-heating your substrate.

Sure, your myc will still grow... but it will may be slower, and the substrate will dry more quickly. Growth slows from overheating MORE DRASTICALLY than it slows due to underheating. And this gives bacteria a perfect, hot and humid environment to thrive within.

Incubation is not important unless you are a big scale grower... with a reliable incubator.

For everybody else, incubation costs too much and far too often, it does more harm than good. If a n00b wishes to have a better chance at success, for less money... they should skip the incubation process entirely.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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OfflineAtrioVent
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: dumbfounded1600]
    #8163763 - 03/18/08 07:46 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

Current incubation of P.E.S.A.
Initially started 1/2 pint jars inoculated with 2cc of spore solution per jar, in normal room temp approximately 72-74 degrees. Moved jars to incubator with thermostat set at 84 degrees after 9 days with no sign of colonization, thought they were expired.
Today is day 16 and three of the five jars are colonizing well. Hoping for birthing opportunity with in 11-12 days.


--------------------
"The clearest way into the Universe is through a forest wilderness"
John Muir (1890)

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Invisibledumbfounded1600
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: AtrioVent]
    #8163879 - 03/18/08 08:10 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

Cubes a Cube...without it being an isolate there is no degree.

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: dumbfounded1600]
    #8165168 - 03/19/08 01:08 AM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

You can take a jar (or piece of bread), put it in the fridge.

Take another, put it on top of the fridge.

I got 20$ says you see some nasty funk in that hot jar/bread before you see anything inside the cold jar.




I got $100 that any jar I sterilize is going to remain sterile weather you put it in the middle of Antarctica, Death Valley, or anywhere in between.

LOL, you got some serious problems if 10F is going to make or break you as far as sterility goes.

It really doesn't matter how many spores or contaminates are in a jar. They all reach 121C and they all die. Very few species of bacteria produce heat resistant endospores that can survive autoclaving and there are several ways to deal with those and they are generally quite fastidious anyways. There shouldn't be any present in rice flour. They should only be of concern in cereal grains.

You really don't want to be relying on 10F to save you from contamination germination. If you are then your technique or methods are not very good.

> fastfred - 86F isn't the right incubation temperature though.

As far as optimal temps RR, who did some research on this, has stated that optimal is 80-81F. I usually mention 80-85F because that is what I used back in the day when I lived in a more permissive area and 86F was cited in the literature as optimal. I just throw out 80-85F because I know it works great and I haven't had the chance to test 80 vs. 85F.

I agree that there is plenty of reason to steer noobs away from ghetto-rigging incubators with poor temperature control and then setting them at 86F. But when people ask what the best temperature for fastest growth is then the answer is around 80F. If they can get 75-85F reliably then they will be fine and there's no reason not to incubate if you want.


-FF

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Offlinexyra
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: fastfred]
    #11553566 - 11/30/09 05:53 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
Quote:

Cervantes said:
Quote:

fastfred said:
Incubation temp has no effect on contamination rate.  To say otherwise is to defy logic.




I'm sorry, I was under the impression that the COOLER we keep our food, the longer it LASTS.

This is why HUMANS use REFRIGERATORS.

Temp DOES have an effect on contamination rate and to say OTHERWISE is to defy logic.




Your leftovers in the fridge have nothing to do with the sterile technique used in mycology. 

Perhaps you simply misunderstand the term "contaminated".  If you have one spore or bacterium other than the desired organism your culture is contaminated.

Or perhaps you have not yet heard that the "spontaneous generation" theory has been disproven. 

Heating something up by 10F can't magically generate life from nothing.  Nor can cooling something down by 10F magically kill contaminants.


-FF




I'm going to have to agree with this post as regardless of what temp you are at, if you are in a position to allow contams in, whether or not the rate of contam spread is increased as soon as you have contams it's time to restart.

X

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Offlinecowfodder
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: xyra]
    #11553696 - 11/30/09 07:11 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Holy almost 2 year old thread batman!


--------------------
"“Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the Weather.""
—Bill Hicks


:guitarhero:

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Offlinepsilocyborg6311
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: Rose]
    #12539727 - 05/10/10 08:33 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
Quote:

fastfred said:

Incubation temp has no effect on contamination rate.  To say otherwise is to defy logic.






I'm sorry, I was under the impression that the COOLER we keep our food, the longer it LASTS.

This is why HUMANS use REFRIGERATORS.

Temp DOES have an effect on contamination rate and to say OTHERWISE is to defy logic.




I completely agree. In fact there are some contaminants that can ONLY live at temperatures higher than what are needed to grow mycelium (80-85). Anyways the growth rate for mycelium tops out at about 75 and remains the same until you reach 80 degrees. anything below 75deg or above 80deg slows growth dramatically. There it is. Happy 'shrooming:mushroom2:

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OfflineJack Attack
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: psilocyborg6311]
    #12539824 - 05/10/10 08:49 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

You guys seem like you're arguing but both sides make true statements.

Heat DOES have some sort of effect on contams

however, (FF's point:)

that should be irrelevant if you sterilize properly.


--------------------
:buddha2::buddha2::buddha2::buddha::buddha::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::aum::dj::aum::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::buddha::buddha::buddha2::buddha2::buddha2:

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: Jack Attack]
    #12542137 - 05/11/10 09:43 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

however, (FF's point:)

that should be irrelevant if you sterilize properly.




There's a huge difference between someone in someone parroting strictly lab/book knowledge and those with real-world actual experience, and this long thread proves that more than anything.

The simple fact is, the 2 hour sterilization we give grains at 15 psi, is not complete sterilization.  Some bacterial endospores remain, and that's a fact.  Give them the temperature they require, and they'll come back to haunt you.  I sterilize thousands of substrates per month, so the learning curve is faster than most people here.  I keep my colonization room at 60f for this reason.  Sure it takes longer, but 100% success is worth the extra time it takes.
RR


--------------------
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"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #12550065 - 05/12/10 05:02 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
There's a huge difference between someone in someone parroting strictly lab/book knowledge and those with real-world actual experience, and this long thread proves that more than anything.




I'm just pointing out simple logic.  You're either contaminated or you're not.  Just because the contams bloom like hell when you increase the temps doesn't mean that the heat is increasing any contamination.  The whole point of sterile technique is to be sterile.  If you're just relying on temp manipulation to get around non-sterile technique then your not doing it right.

Quote:

The simple fact is, the 2 hour sterilization we give grains at 15 psi, is not complete sterilization.  Some bacterial endospores remain, and that's a fact.




2 hours?  WTF?  Quart jars sterilize just fine in under an hour.

If you prepare your media properly you should have a very low contam rate.  The endospores should be germinated and vulnerable to heat.  The whole endospore thing has been way over exaggerated anyways.

The method I used to use for rye was a ~48 hour soak in the fridge, drain well, put in quart jars, and sterilize for 1 hour at 15 psi.  Incubated at 86F the contamination rate would be about 5%.

One would assume a standard minimum contamination rate of 1%, and 1-3% from error or random contamination during inoculation.  So even a conservative estimate would put endospore contamination problems at 2-3%.  That's hardly worth mentioning, and certainly shouldn't be a consideration when choosing incubation temps.


-FF

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Invisiblethesoundd
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: fastfred]
    #12551348 - 05/12/10 07:52 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
The simple fact is, the 2 hour sterilization we give grains at 15 psi, is not complete sterilization.  Some bacterial endospores remain, and that's a fact.  Give them the temperature they require, and they'll come back to haunt you.




I have to agree with RR. I'm new here, but anyone that has worked in a micro/myco laboratory knows that endospores can sometimes survive the autoclave. Not that you'll find this in your average bag of WBS, but there are even bacteria that thrive at autoclave temperature/pressure.

To quote a terrible movie, "Life will find a way". :wink:


--------------------

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OfflineElectroShaman
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: dumbfounded1600]
    #13239219 - 09/24/10 02:16 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I have the book paul staments does recommend 85-86 degrees F for cubes but i find that shitty incubators have ruined 3 batches with contams so im goin with room temp this time of pf tek puerto rican strain

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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: ElectroShaman]
    #13239637 - 09/24/10 08:06 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I prefer to let my jars sit for 2-4 weeks after being sterilized before inoculating them. They never grow anything until I inoculate them. Thats after about 70 minutes at 15PSI. Well maybe 1 in 200 will.

I do not incubate, though I had decent success when I first started when incubation was popular, it always worked out well set at 80. These days they just go in a closet which I try to keep the temps down on because its already warm in the room just from the greenhouses making their own heat. At room temp jars are done from G2G's in 6-7 days and from spores in about 14, give er take. So why incubate anyway..


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: ElectroShaman]
    #13239782 - 09/24/10 09:04 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ElectroShaman said:
I have the book paul staments does recommend 85-86 degrees F for cubes but i find that shitty incubators have ruined 3 batches with contams so im goin with room temp this time of pf tek puerto rican strain




No, he doesn't.  He says a mycelium temperature of 86(which includes the heat within produced by the mycelium-not the air temperature) resulted in fastest growth, but he got that info from someone else.  My own tests on petri dishes at controlled temperature showed growth was completely flat between 75F and 81F and then began to fall rapidly at 83F and above.

This is why we recommend room temperature colonization.  Since the procedures we use for sterilization in jars don't completely sterilize the grains, a lower temperature gives less chance of bacteria bloom in the two to three weeks it takes for the mycelium to get a full grip on the substrate.

Quote:

fastfred said:
   
Quote:


    The simple fact is, the 2 hour sterilization we give grains at 15 psi, is not complete sterilization.  Some bacterial endospores remain, and that's a fact.






2 hours?  WTF?  Quart jars sterilize just fine in under an hour.





Nonsense.  An empty quart jar  may sterilize great in under an hour, but that same jar full of grains after an hour at 15psi will not have reached 250F in the center of the substrate.  I've tested this with strips. 90 minutes is required, and even then you need to get the grains colonized as quickly as possible.

People seriously need to disregard what their biology teacher says about autoclave sterilization of scalpels, forceps, etc., when working with grains and listen to those of us who have been sterilizing grains for mushroom growing for many years.  We've already suffered the failures and developed the techniques we share with others for one reason: Because they work.
RR


--------------------
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"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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Offlinebigshack
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: Roadkill]
    #15903905 - 03/05/12 02:14 PM (12 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

Roadkill said:
81 degrees F. is the best temp to colonize jars the fastest at.


tc




what about for bags

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: bigshack]
    #15904964 - 03/05/12 05:59 PM (12 years, 16 days ago)

Room temp. Give the mushers temto grow. Anything hotter will allow contams to have a chance.


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Offlinekcbennie
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #15905757 - 03/05/12 08:00 PM (12 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:

My own tests on petri dishes at controlled temperature showed growth was completely flat between 75F and 81F and then began to fall rapidly at 83F and above.

This is why we recommend room temperature colonization.




Having gained the knowledge and experience required to actually grow a mushroom from spore to fruit, I probably speak for all of us when I say that I consider myself very "scientific", if not an actual "scientist." That being said, you would probably do allot less explaining and repeating if you stopped dumbing down your reply to this temp question to "room temperature."  If mycelium stalls at 58 degrees or less, and your plates level off at 75, can we all agree that optimal colonization temps are 60-75 degrees air temperature?  With or without an incubator!

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Offlinebubbarboss
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: kcbennie]
    #15942580 - 03/13/12 03:16 PM (12 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Bungalow Bill said:
If your cultivation room is at 68-78 you are golden for incubating and fruiting.



I have a question what is it incubating my btf cakes and they accidentally went above 90 degrees for about 20 minutes. I took them away from the heat source in cold im down to about 80 degrees did I screw my self?

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Offlinebigshack
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Re: True Incubation Temps (moved) [Re: bubbarboss]
    #15963874 - 03/18/12 03:59 PM (12 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

bubbarboss said:
Quote:

Bungalow Bill said:
If your cultivation room is at 68-78 you are golden for incubating and fruiting.



I have a question what is it incubating my btf cakes and they accidentally went above 90 degrees for about 20 minutes. I took them away from the heat source in cold im down to about 80 degrees did I screw my self?




naw just get those temps down

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