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Diploid
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Re: Increasing Quality of mp3 files? [Re: HagbardCeline]
#7889890 - 01/16/08 07:37 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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What I was explaining above was using the same CD player. It plays mp3 format from a CD (as a data disc). Just taking those exact mp3 and burning them to another CD as .wav files sounds significantly better.
Hmm... I'm stumped.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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HagbardCeline
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Re: Increasing Quality of mp3 files? [Re: HagbardCeline]
#7890488 - 01/16/08 09:36 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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WTF do chicks know about music anyway! 
She didn't want to participate in my little experiment, but agreed to listen to one song and I'll be truthful (if you couldn't tell by my first sentence) she actually picked the MP3.
I burned a variety of mp3's (different types, bit rates, etc.) to a CD and then the exact same songs to CD as .wav files. Everything was done using iTunes.
First, I'll say the difference was not as dramatic as I remember and was subjective. There wasn't anything that jumped out at you and I actually had to listen several times before I could pick up the differences. When I had done this before, I used Nero to copy the mp3 files to a CD as a data disc. I'm not sure how or why it would, but is it possible that this method resulted in lower quality somehow? I only had 2 CD's left, so I can't test this.
There were a couple of things that did stand out though. I have a fairly high-end car stereo and when listening to CD's the vocals often sound like they are coming from inside your head, it's difficult to pinpoint where they're coming from. The instruments are similar to this to a point, you can pick their source, but in both cases they don't sound like they are coming from the speakers if that makes any sense. With the mp3 CD this effect was absent. It clearly did sound like the music was emanating from the speakers and was biased to the front. The burned CD displayed the same effect that I'm used to with a regular CD. Though not as impressive, it was noticeable.
I wouldn't refer to the above as worse, just different. The only thing I found that I still believe was worse on the mp3 CD was the lows. Songs with heavy bass lines and instruments had a distorted quality to them when compared the burned CD. Again though, this wasn't nearly as drastic as I remembered, but it was one of the things I did remember being a problem from before.
There was definitely a different sound between the two. The closest thing I can compare it to that others might recognize is the difference between tube and solid state amps (before solid state amps got really good) though even less dramatically. The mp3 CD still had what I would describe as a more tinny, less full sound.
Something I just thought of is making me think that my previous method (using Nero as data disc) had to have had something to do with this is that the volume on those discs was very low. Even turning my head unit to the fullest wouldn't get too loud. The 2 CD's I just made had the exact same levels and were plenty loud without turning it all the way up. Though since these are digital copies, I can't figure out why they would be any different. Unless iTunes is doing something to the files during the burning process?
-------------------- I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
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HagbardCeline
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Re: Increasing Quality of mp3 files? [Re: Diploid]
#7890550 - 01/16/08 09:49 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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So what I still don't understand is where all the extra information comes from for the .wav files for the burned CD. The mp3 CD was 12 songs and around 60 MB. The .wav CD was 12 songs and nearly 600 MB.
This also made me just think that if an mp3 is derived from a wav by an algorithm shouldn't another algorithm be able to fill in some of those blanks similar to upscaling a DVD or enhancing satellite photos? It still wouldn't have the quality of the real .wav file, but it should be better correct?
-------------------- I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
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Diploid
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Re: Increasing Quality of mp3 files? [Re: HagbardCeline]
#7890584 - 01/16/08 09:55 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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So what I still don't understand is where all the extra information comes from for the .wav files
It's extrapolated.
MP3 is a lossy system. When you go back to a .wav file (CD) the lost bits are filled in with a best guess.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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HagbardCeline
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Re: Increasing Quality of mp3 files? [Re: Diploid]
#7890678 - 01/16/08 10:09 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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So they have basically developed another algorithm like I said above and that's how they decode mp3's to wav? If that's the case and quality still isn't added, couldn't there be a discrepancy between decoders or do they all use the same algo?
-------------------- I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
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Diploid
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Re: Increasing Quality of mp3 files? [Re: HagbardCeline]
#7890742 - 01/16/08 10:19 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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Well, I'm not sure what you're asking but, when you go from .mp3 to .wav, you ALWAYS get the same .wav. The decoder is deterministic.
When you go from .wav to .mp3, the result depends on which encoder you used because the final result is a function of what psycho-acoustic model (which bits of sound are discarded in the hopes that nobody listening will notice) the engineer used when writing the code.
Not sure if that answers your question though.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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iateshaggy
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Re: Increasing Quality of mp3 files? [Re: HagbardCeline]
#7890774 - 01/16/08 10:24 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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there are different mp3 encoders. the best is lame. others are fgh, xing, and some other crap i can't remember. for optimum size/quality, use lame V0 (variable bit rate, avg bitrate of 250). eac is a great cd ripper when properly set up. u can use the link i provided to set it up. i also like to rip cd's to flac and then re-encode them to mp3 w a program called all2lame. this is an acceptable way to re-encode b/c it is lossless->lossy.
-------------------- You are a filipina sex goddess who wants to fuck me until I fall asleep, so then you can tickle my balls and see if the legend of my diamond filled nutsuck is true. I am a white man from costa rica, who smells like lime jello.
I can flash/jtag/repair 360's, pm for details.
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HagbardCeline
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Re: Increasing Quality of mp3 files? [Re: Diploid]
#7890889 - 01/16/08 10:43 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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Well I went and did some reading and think I have it figured out. What you said is spot on, I just didn't understand the process very well.
Decoding an mp3 to wav will result in nearly the exact same file across all platforms because it's simply recording the audio stream created by playing the mp3. Nearly because there can be some very slight discrepancies. Probably nothing a human could perceive though.
You're exactly right about encoding.
The effect I was describing before is well known and a direct result of the psycho-acoustic model they used to encode a mp3. To save space, what was stereo will often be converted to mono and simply played back through different channels. This destroys the sound stage. What it doesn't explain is why I hear that soundstage somewhat fixed from the decoded CD.
I'm not the first person to think that wav files decoded from mp3's sounded better - many have reported the same thing - but every authority I have found claims this is impossible. I hate to admit it, but until I can produce or see evidence to the contrary, I suppose my ears were playing tricks on me and my bias or preconceptions influenced what I perceived.
-------------------- I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
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HagbardCeline
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Re: Increasing Quality of mp3 files? [Re: iateshaggy]
#7890946 - 01/16/08 10:56 PM (16 years, 16 days ago) |
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Yeah, thanks a lot for that link. 
Because of you, I'm now considering re-ripping several hundred of my CDs. At least I hadn't done them all.
-------------------- I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
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Anno
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Re: Increasing Quality of mp3 files? [Re: Diploid]
#7891748 - 01/17/08 03:46 AM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:Quote:
when you go from .mp3 to .wav, you ALWAYS get the same .wav.
This is not true. The wav file produced depends on the decoder, since not all decoders decode according to the ISO/IEC decoding standard.
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Seuss
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Re: Increasing Quality of mp3 files? [Re: HagbardCeline]
#7891757 - 01/17/08 04:16 AM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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> I'm now considering re-ripping several hundred of my CDs.
Look into FLAC (http://flac.sourceforge.net/) before you do. You won't be disappointed, as long as you have disk space.
Quote:
Diploid said:Quote:
when you go from .mp3 to .wav, you ALWAYS get the same .wav.
This is not true. The wav file produced depends on the decoder, since not all decoders decode according to the ISO/IEC decoding standard.
I think he meant on the same machine, if you run the same program to translate, you aways get the same output from the same input. His point was that the translation doesn't add "random" data. Everything is discrete.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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HagbardCeline
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Re: Increasing Quality of mp3 files? [Re: Seuss]
#7892155 - 01/17/08 09:07 AM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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I wish I did. From what I see with FLAC, you can expect around a 45% reduction in size at best, is that correct? Still way to much for me, my collection is just too big. I have around 23,000 songs right now at 100+ GB and I still haven't ripped all my CD's. Granted that isn't much disc space, but going to FLAC would require more disc space orders of magnitude larger.
I hope we have a revolution in storage density soon. Even CD's in their native format are a compromise. I've had the opportunity to spend some time around a recording studio and to hear the songs in their original state, still tracked out at much high sample rates is amazing. The problem here is that one song could be several hundred MB or more depending on the setting they use.
One day.
-------------------- I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
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HagbardCeline
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Re: Increasing Quality of mp3 files? [Re: Seuss]
#7892201 - 01/17/08 09:24 AM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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Well, we can finally chalk most of what I though up to poor memory. I found another disk earlier and used Nero to make a data disc of those same mp3s and they sound identical to the ones burned from iTunes.
The only thing I can think of that may have caused me to remember it the way I did is that when I originally started ripping my CD's I had it on a low setting/bit rate. I think I didn't notice it at first because of my shitty computer speakers, but once I burned it and played it in my car, the distortion was evident. That made me start over at at least 160 kpbs for everything. I did a lot of experiments then with the music and I just must have confused them.
-------------------- I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
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HagbardCeline
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Re: Increasing Quality of mp3 files? [Re: HagbardCeline]
#7892218 - 01/17/08 09:30 AM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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One last thing though, since decoding an mp3 back to wav isn't actually any sort of algorithm like I first thought, that question stands. Shouldn't, in theory at least, someone be able to develop an algorithm to extrapolate some of the missing data from an mp3?
Like I stated earlier, if they can do it with images and video, why not music?
-------------------- I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
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iateshaggy
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Re: Increasing Quality of mp3 files? [Re: HagbardCeline]
#7894095 - 01/17/08 05:44 PM (16 years, 15 days ago) |
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to your last question, no. think of the sound wave from a song as a rectangle. when u encode to mp3, the top 1/4-1/3 of the rectangle gets chopped off, then vertical stripes are cut out of it and replaced w/ the echo of the space before it. once that info is gone, its gone.
as for cd ripping bitrates and quality, if u are using the ripper i gave, the V0 switch gives u 320 bitrate sound at 250 bitrate size. if u ever care to get into private bit torrent communities, it is the prefered method accross the board.
-------------------- You are a filipina sex goddess who wants to fuck me until I fall asleep, so then you can tickle my balls and see if the legend of my diamond filled nutsuck is true. I am a white man from costa rica, who smells like lime jello.
I can flash/jtag/repair 360's, pm for details.
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iateshaggy
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Re: Increasing Quality of mp3 files? [Re: iateshaggy]
#7896263 - 01/18/08 07:18 AM (16 years, 14 days ago) |
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here is some spectrals of a file i have. they were taken from the same point of the same song to show the difference b/w lossy vs. lossless.
this is mp3 V0 (average bitrate 250). notice how it looks pixelated compared to flac, that is from data loss.

flac, details are very fine and there is no vertical cut-offs.
-------------------- You are a filipina sex goddess who wants to fuck me until I fall asleep, so then you can tickle my balls and see if the legend of my diamond filled nutsuck is true. I am a white man from costa rica, who smells like lime jello.
I can flash/jtag/repair 360's, pm for details.
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HELLA_TIGHT
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Re: Increasing Quality of mp3 files? [Re: HagbardCeline]
#7896269 - 01/18/08 07:20 AM (16 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
HagbardCeline said:
Quote:
SpiritualSnorkel said: It sounds like these songs might have been trans-coded from one compressed bit rate to another.
Did you burn these mp3s onto cd and then later on rip them back to your PC from the disc? This will result in loss of quality and untrue bit rates.
There's no quick fix for this except reacquiring the music over again.
Are you sure about this? I have burned MP3's to cd and the sound was measurably better. I had assumed that ripping them back at a higher bit rate would make even a better sounding MP3.
It's analogous to taking a picture of a picture with a nice camera and hoping the second one looks better than the first.
--------------------
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