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InvisibleAnastomosisJihad
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Phil math problem
    #7860416 - 01/10/08 04:27 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Dividing one by zero is the same as dividing one by nothing at all.
Dividing by nothing is the same as not dividing.
One divided by zero equals one.


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: AnastomosisJihad]
    #7860437 - 01/10/08 04:30 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

false


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InvisibleAnastomosisJihad
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: TheCow]
    #7860449 - 01/10/08 04:32 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

It's not a true or false question :wink:.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: AnastomosisJihad]
    #7860450 - 01/10/08 04:32 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

"Dividing by nothing is the same as not dividing."

Valid, but not sound.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: AnastomosisJihad]
    #7860474 - 01/10/08 04:37 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

No. 1/0 is undefined. It is a disallowed operation in (almost) all of mathematics because it is a meaningless concept. It's the math equivalent of the English sentence "How many specialty is your hair?"

Let me show you something that might make this clear:

Say you have 8 apples and 4 people and you need to divide the apples evenly among the people. You divide 8 apples by 4 people (8 / 4 = 2) and you end up giving each person 2 apples.

Say you have 8 apples and 2 people. Then it's 8 / 2 = 4. Each person gets 4 apples.

Say you have 8 apples and 1 person. Then it's 8 / 1 = 8. Each person gets 8 apples.

Now, say you have 8 apples and 0 people. How many apples does each person get?

The question is meaningless because it's asking how many apples each person gets, but there are no people. You can't say each person gets 0 because there are no people to whom you can give 0 or any other number of apples. The question is invalid.

The division by zero is also invalid.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: xFrockx]
    #7860476 - 01/10/08 04:37 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Valid, but not sound

The sound is imaginary, you hear it in your head. Sound divided by imagination = 0. Simple.

Please send all your math problems to Mr. Wizard, aka Icelander.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (01/10/08 04:39 PM)


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: AnastomosisJihad]
    #7860541 - 01/10/08 04:48 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

If there was an apple.. And one divided it, by zero/'nothing at all', then there are no one/thing there to divide the apple between, thus the apple stays the same, and the division never occurs..

:grin::thumbup:


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InvisibleAnastomosisJihad
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: Diploid]
    #7860553 - 01/10/08 04:50 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

One divided by one is one. On divided by one half is two. One divided by one tenth is ten. 1/(1/100) = 100... As the divisor approaches zero, the quotient approaches infinity. Surely one divided by zero must equal infinity.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: Gomp]
    #7860564 - 01/10/08 04:52 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

But the question isn't how many apple slices you end up with but how many of them each non-existing person gets.

It's meaningless to ask this. You can't give a non-existing person anything.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: xFrockx]
    #7860577 - 01/10/08 04:53 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Dividing by zero is valid, it is just that it cannot occur! 
At least as an abstract thought? :crazy2:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: Diploid]
    #7860582 - 01/10/08 04:54 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

You can't give a non-existing person anything.


You can give them your time and attention.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleim_on_a_boat
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: xFrockx]
    #7860600 - 01/10/08 04:59 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

someone took philosophy class!


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InvisibleAnastomosisJihad
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: Diploid]
    #7860612 - 01/10/08 05:02 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
But the question isn't how many apple slices you end up with but how many of them each non-existing person gets.





Does 1/(1/10) really mean that one tenth of one person is going to receive 100 slices of the apple?


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: AnastomosisJihad]
    #7860632 - 01/10/08 05:05 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

AnastomosisJihad said:
One divided by one is one. On divided by one half is two. One divided by one tenth is ten. 1/(1/100) = 100... As the divisor approaches zero, the quotient approaches infinity. Surely one divided by zero must equal infinity.




One apple, one man..

One apple to half a man, is still just one apple.

And so on..

Why do you not use an example instead of numbers?

Or, let's see If I can use something else. One thing, divided by another thing, could be one thing.. One thing divided by one half of a thing, can be two.. But, as soon as one divide any one thing, with no other thing, then the division never occurs. Thus there is no division.. No division means that one divided by zero, never can be. Only they very act of dividing something with nothing...

It is an interesting place to be. It is kind of like a snake, shitting itself out, full circle.. :p


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: AnastomosisJihad]
    #7860637 - 01/10/08 05:05 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Surely one divided by zero must equal infinity.

Infinity is not a number. It's a concept.

What you're describing is called a Limit in math. It's taught in second year algebra or pre-calculus.

Think of it this way. Take any number and double it. Then double the result. Keep doing this. You can't do this infinitely many times, not even in principle, because no matter how many times you do it, you will ALWAYS be able to do it again.

See? There is no such number called 'infinity' at which you finally reached the end and can't keep doubling your number. It's a concept, not a number so nothing can "equal infinity".

What you CAN say is this: 1/x approaches zero as x approaches infinity. x can never actually reach infinity because again, it's a concept not a number.

This is written formally as:

Code:

lim 1/x = 0
x -> ∞



How much math have you taken in school? From your question, I think you'd enjoy calculus.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: Icelander]
    #7860641 - 01/10/08 05:07 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
You can't give a non-existing person anything.


You can give them your time and attention.




For once it seems some humor made a valid point! :tongue2:


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Invisibleim_on_a_boat
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: AnastomosisJihad]
    #7860645 - 01/10/08 05:08 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_by_zero

everything you ever wanted to know.

i would post stuff, but it's all in the wiki.


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InvisibleAnastomosisJihad
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: Diploid]
    #7860666 - 01/10/08 05:12 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

So you agree with Gomp that it is not possible to divide by zero? If you take one thing and try to divide it by zero, nothing will happen because it is not possible to divide by zero, therefore you will be left with the same thing you started with.

1/0=1


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: im_on_a_boat]
    #7860668 - 01/10/08 05:12 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Another way to look at it is to divide zero by zero, and see what one ends up with..

Be it the division, alone?


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: AnastomosisJihad]
    #7860669 - 01/10/08 05:13 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

One divided by one is one. On divided by one half is two. One divided by one tenth is ten. 1/(1/100) = 100... As the divisor approaches zero, the quotient approaches infinity. Surely one divided by zero must equal infinity.

By that reasoning, 1 / -1 must equal greater than infinity, which is wrong.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: AnastomosisJihad]
    #7860674 - 01/10/08 05:14 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

AnastomosisJihad said:
So you agree with Gomp that it is not possible to divide by zero? If you take one thing and try to divide it by zero, nothing will happen because it is not possible to divide by zero, therefore you will be left with the same thing you started with.

1/0=1




If you read what I wrote as if I said it was impossible, I would ask you to read it again.. Or at least know that that is not the case.. I was simply postulating different example to approach the question..

"Every question has answers.. Vice versa!"


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: AnastomosisJihad]
    #7860677 - 01/10/08 05:16 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

So you agree with Gomp that it is not possible to divide by zero?

I agree with Gomp, but not for the reason he presents.

The very question you're posing is: EVEN THOUGH DIVISION BY ZERO CANNOT OCCUR, WHAT IF IT DID OCCUR.

That's the question the OP is asking and that's the question I'm saying is meaningless.

You can also ask: what if 1 + 1 = 5? But it's a meaningless question.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisibleim_on_a_boat
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: Diploid]
    #7860680 - 01/10/08 05:18 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

-1 approaches zero from -3, -2, and so on.. so your reasoning is not sound in that case.

i dont believe that 1/0 or a/0 = (infinity) but that it equals a non-real number.

if they gave it a variable like they did for the square root of -1 (i) then it would probably seem a lot more satisfying, but they just leave it out there.

it's impossible to divide by zero using real numbers.

if it happened, all that has been made would be unmade :P

http://dividebyzero.ytmnd.com/


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: Diploid]
    #7860686 - 01/10/08 05:19 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
One divided by one is one. On divided by one half is two. One divided by one tenth is ten. 1/(1/100) = 100... As the divisor approaches zero, the quotient approaches infinity. Surely one divided by zero must equal infinity.

By that reasoning, 1 / -1 must equal greater than infinity, which is wrong.




Interesting notion.

One apple, divided by one man that is, but is not there?


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Invisibleim_on_a_boat
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: Gomp]
    #7860693 - 01/10/08 05:23 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

lets just assign a variable to dividing by zero

a/0 = _  ?

fill in the blank.

i like Ϸ because it kinda looks like a tongue sticking out because this is a pointless thread :tongue:


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: Diploid]
    #7860694 - 01/10/08 05:23 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
You can also ask: what if 1 + 1 = 5? But it's a meaningless question.




Not if you had a lot of units carrying 2,5 apples.. If you then wanted to know how many apples you carry by 2 units, then 1 unit + 1 unit = 5 apples.

It is really all just about the context..


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: im_on_a_boat]
    #7860698 - 01/10/08 05:24 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Square root of -1 is logically consistent with the rest of math. Division by zero isn't. If you arbitrarily assign it some symbol, it will end there. There is no place in mathematics where the symbol could be used without resulting in illogical statements.

That's why it's undefined.

-1 approaches zero from -3, -2, and so on

EXACTLY! It is an asymptotic summation from both directions that never actually reaches zero because the free variable can never reach infinity, which is not a number.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: Gomp]
    #7860712 - 01/10/08 05:28 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

1 unit + 1 unit = 5 apples

This is illogical. If you're adding units, you end up with units, not apples. You have to be consistent or you're not doing math any more.

You can't put 1 apple in a bag, then another apple in a bag (1 + 1) then look in the bag and find bananas instead of apples. When you add the same things together, you end up with more of the same things.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisibleim_on_a_boat
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: Diploid]
    #7860726 - 01/10/08 05:33 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

nice.

i understand about the invalidity of dividing by zero and why there shouldn't be a variable assigned.. i was just trying to possibly threadjack or maybe diffuse the thread into a more lighthearted discussion.

no sense in arguing/debating over something that impossible.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: im_on_a_boat]
    #7860734 - 01/10/08 05:35 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Eh, we do that all the time around here. :grin:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisibleim_on_a_boat
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: Diploid]
    #7860738 - 01/10/08 05:36 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

i can see debating over the pointless.. but the impossible.. just too hard to fathom :laugh:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: Diploid]
    #7864273 - 01/11/08 10:20 AM (16 years, 21 days ago)

Spreech for yourself.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: AnastomosisJihad]
    #7864274 - 01/11/08 10:20 AM (16 years, 21 days ago)

1/0 can be used, but it is every number between -infinity and +infinity, so it will render almost every equation senseless.

By division by something smaller 1 but larger zero, math goes into assumption as it sees only so many pieces at that part and through the (often false) rule of symmetry, it assumes, the other parts will have the same amount of pieces.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlinekrin
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7868239 - 01/12/08 07:24 AM (16 years, 20 days ago)

1/0

Divide 1 apple into equal groups of nothing

I then decimate the apple

I don't see why 1/0 doesn't equal 0

makes sense to me.

Its a method for obliterating concepts.

I say we start at one end of the universe, and start dividing by 0, soon enough we'll completely nullifying everything.
WHOS WITH ME!? COME ON YOU N'ER DO WELLS LETS FUCK THIS PLACE UP



And concerning 1/0 = infinity, I don't know why you even mention this, because everything approaches infinity if you apply the right operation(s)
In fact Id say everything is somehow infinite

So its redundant to mention.

Actually in cooperation with our new "Divide the universe into nothing" campaign, I suggest we also permanently abandon infinity, it just wastes space and time, people have actually begun CALCULATING this fucking thing? Come now, this is a universal nuisance


And finally on my list of proposals, I'd like to introduce a new operation called "Shneshulation" represented by the symbol of "||"
When you shneshulate a number or concept you always get a new answer, example:

5||8=

wow, this was a very interesting shneshulation exercise, and I have to admit it took me for a real curve ball, here we see that 5 is being shneshulated by 8, initially you might approach the question from a symmetrical viewpoint : "The 5 should be reversed on the other end of the 8 to provide lateral symmetry"
However if you shneshulate further you see that this is not the most efficient function, quantifiably theres no correlation between the two amounts (at least not yet)
If anyone else has a better solution for 5||8 I'd like to hear it
My answer: Awestruck


Wow math is so much fun


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InvisibleAnastomosisJihad
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: Diploid]
    #7869763 - 01/12/08 04:50 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

No. 1/0 is undefined. It is a disallowed operation in (almost) all of mathematics because it is a meaningless concept.





Quote:

Surely one divided by zero must equal infinity.

Infinity is not a number. It's a concept.

What you're describing is called a Limit in math.





Quote:

-1 approaches zero from -3, -2, and so on

EXACTLY! It is an asymptotic summation from both directions that never actually reaches zero because the free variable can never reach infinity, which is not a number.





We have come to the heart of this problem. Infinity is a limit on the mind's ability to conceive magnitude; it lies at one end of the conceivable magnitude spectrum, not a number so much as a concept: 'that-than which-nothing-greater-can-be-thought'. Zero lies at the other end of the same continuum; it is that than which nothing lesser can be thought. 
Negative numbers are not less than zero, they indicate magnitudes greater than zero in negative direction.

But if zero is a conceptual limit on the minds ability to think in terms of magnitude, then, like infinity, it is not a number at all.


I wonder what would happen if zero were expelled from the set of real numbers? I suspect the foundations of arithmetic would be shaken. :wink:


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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: Phil math problem [Re: AnastomosisJihad]
    #7869793 - 01/12/08 04:56 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

You can invent any rules you want in math (like no 0, or no 1). The reason we use the rules where there is a 0 is that it then works if we want to build bridges, study stars, etc.


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Re: Phil math problem [Re: DieCommie]
    #7869831 - 01/12/08 05:04 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Wow, and I really feel like im in a discussion about nothingness, what figures?


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7869840 - 01/12/08 05:06 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
1/0 can be used, but it is every number between -infinity and +infinity, so it will render almost every equation senseless.

By division by something smaller 1 but larger zero, math goes into assumption as it sees only so many pieces at that part and through the (often false) rule of symmetry, it assumes, the other parts will have the same amount of pieces.



haha, yes, are you the cat that made my favorite post of all time? The one where we had to explain to someone why 1/(1/2) equals 2?


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: TheCow]
    #7872140 - 01/13/08 01:50 AM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Yes :-)
And inbetween I figured out, the failure is all about the axion of symmetry, which doesn't apply to some real occasions (especially not to real world assumptions) :lol:
That's fun :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (01/13/08 01:56 AM)


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7873076 - 01/13/08 11:50 AM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Oh so you still don't get it?  Its all about units man.  1 apple per .5  persons, equals 2 apples per persons.  Half of you gets 1 apple, therefore whole you gets 2 apples.  Math isnt a magical toaster you can just throw shit into and itll come out exactly the way you want.  Its logical relations, you might have to interpret the results :shrug:  You  expect math to be magic


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: TheCow]
    #7874009 - 01/13/08 03:58 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Who doesn't get it ? :lol:
If there's an apple lying besides a chainsawed half person, that doesn't mean in reality, that besides the other half of that person there will lie an apple too :smile:
It's the axion of symmetry which (falsely) assumes that in math.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (01/13/08 04:04 PM)


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7874173 - 01/13/08 04:29 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

you miss the point again. You are taking the (1/2) of a person to be a WHOLE UNIT. There you are defining person to be .5 people. So you divide one apple by that and you will 1 apple/person. Like I said, you expect magic


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: TheCow]
    #7874198 - 01/13/08 04:35 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

That's a structural problem :smile:
You have to make a good cut through a person for each (exact same) side will get half a liver :lol:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7874211 - 01/13/08 04:36 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

your mom's a structural problem


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: TheCow]
    #7874246 - 01/13/08 04:42 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Still, the mathematical axiom of symmetry does make false assumptions in predicting reality.
As you can clearly see by the topic itself, if you can't follow my explanations.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineTheCow
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Posts: 4,790
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
Re: Phil math problem [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7874256 - 01/13/08 04:44 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

well dont worry. Even though you cant grasp something my 5 year old cousin can, I still find you amusing


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: TheCow]
    #7874276 - 01/13/08 04:47 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

I know it will hurt at first :wink:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (01/13/08 05:03 PM)


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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Phil math problem [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7874755 - 01/13/08 06:29 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

You can deal with half a person without having to physically cut a person in half.


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