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OfflineGomp
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Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 10,888
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: AnastomosisJihad]
    #7860674 - 01/10/08 05:14 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

AnastomosisJihad said:
So you agree with Gomp that it is not possible to divide by zero? If you take one thing and try to divide it by zero, nothing will happen because it is not possible to divide by zero, therefore you will be left with the same thing you started with.

1/0=1




If you read what I wrote as if I said it was impossible, I would ask you to read it again.. Or at least know that that is not the case.. I was simply postulating different example to approach the question..

"Every question has answers.. Vice versa!"


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Phil math problem [Re: AnastomosisJihad]
    #7860677 - 01/10/08 05:16 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

So you agree with Gomp that it is not possible to divide by zero?

I agree with Gomp, but not for the reason he presents.

The very question you're posing is: EVEN THOUGH DIVISION BY ZERO CANNOT OCCUR, WHAT IF IT DID OCCUR.

That's the question the OP is asking and that's the question I'm saying is meaningless.

You can also ask: what if 1 + 1 = 5? But it's a meaningless question.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisibleim_on_a_boat
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Registered: 04/06/06
Posts: 3,950
Re: Phil math problem [Re: Diploid]
    #7860680 - 01/10/08 05:18 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

-1 approaches zero from -3, -2, and so on.. so your reasoning is not sound in that case.

i dont believe that 1/0 or a/0 = (infinity) but that it equals a non-real number.

if they gave it a variable like they did for the square root of -1 (i) then it would probably seem a lot more satisfying, but they just leave it out there.

it's impossible to divide by zero using real numbers.

if it happened, all that has been made would be unmade :P

http://dividebyzero.ytmnd.com/


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: Diploid]
    #7860686 - 01/10/08 05:19 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
One divided by one is one. On divided by one half is two. One divided by one tenth is ten. 1/(1/100) = 100... As the divisor approaches zero, the quotient approaches infinity. Surely one divided by zero must equal infinity.

By that reasoning, 1 / -1 must equal greater than infinity, which is wrong.




Interesting notion.

One apple, divided by one man that is, but is not there?


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Invisibleim_on_a_boat
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: Gomp]
    #7860693 - 01/10/08 05:23 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

lets just assign a variable to dividing by zero

a/0 = _  ?

fill in the blank.

i like Ϸ because it kinda looks like a tongue sticking out because this is a pointless thread :tongue:


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: Diploid]
    #7860694 - 01/10/08 05:23 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
You can also ask: what if 1 + 1 = 5? But it's a meaningless question.




Not if you had a lot of units carrying 2,5 apples.. If you then wanted to know how many apples you carry by 2 units, then 1 unit + 1 unit = 5 apples.

It is really all just about the context..


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Phil math problem [Re: im_on_a_boat]
    #7860698 - 01/10/08 05:24 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Square root of -1 is logically consistent with the rest of math. Division by zero isn't. If you arbitrarily assign it some symbol, it will end there. There is no place in mathematics where the symbol could be used without resulting in illogical statements.

That's why it's undefined.

-1 approaches zero from -3, -2, and so on

EXACTLY! It is an asymptotic summation from both directions that never actually reaches zero because the free variable can never reach infinity, which is not a number.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Phil math problem [Re: Gomp]
    #7860712 - 01/10/08 05:28 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

1 unit + 1 unit = 5 apples

This is illogical. If you're adding units, you end up with units, not apples. You have to be consistent or you're not doing math any more.

You can't put 1 apple in a bag, then another apple in a bag (1 + 1) then look in the bag and find bananas instead of apples. When you add the same things together, you end up with more of the same things.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisibleim_on_a_boat
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Registered: 04/06/06
Posts: 3,950
Re: Phil math problem [Re: Diploid]
    #7860726 - 01/10/08 05:33 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

nice.

i understand about the invalidity of dividing by zero and why there shouldn't be a variable assigned.. i was just trying to possibly threadjack or maybe diffuse the thread into a more lighthearted discussion.

no sense in arguing/debating over something that impossible.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Phil math problem [Re: im_on_a_boat]
    #7860734 - 01/10/08 05:35 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Eh, we do that all the time around here. :grin:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisibleim_on_a_boat
Stranger

Registered: 04/06/06
Posts: 3,950
Re: Phil math problem [Re: Diploid]
    #7860738 - 01/10/08 05:36 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

i can see debating over the pointless.. but the impossible.. just too hard to fathom :laugh:


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Phil math problem [Re: Diploid]
    #7864273 - 01/11/08 10:20 AM (16 years, 21 days ago)

Spreech for yourself.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Registered: 05/07/04
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: AnastomosisJihad]
    #7864274 - 01/11/08 10:20 AM (16 years, 21 days ago)

1/0 can be used, but it is every number between -infinity and +infinity, so it will render almost every equation senseless.

By division by something smaller 1 but larger zero, math goes into assumption as it sees only so many pieces at that part and through the (often false) rule of symmetry, it assumes, the other parts will have the same amount of pieces.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlinekrin
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Registered: 11/20/04
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7868239 - 01/12/08 07:24 AM (16 years, 20 days ago)

1/0

Divide 1 apple into equal groups of nothing

I then decimate the apple

I don't see why 1/0 doesn't equal 0

makes sense to me.

Its a method for obliterating concepts.

I say we start at one end of the universe, and start dividing by 0, soon enough we'll completely nullifying everything.
WHOS WITH ME!? COME ON YOU N'ER DO WELLS LETS FUCK THIS PLACE UP



And concerning 1/0 = infinity, I don't know why you even mention this, because everything approaches infinity if you apply the right operation(s)
In fact Id say everything is somehow infinite

So its redundant to mention.

Actually in cooperation with our new "Divide the universe into nothing" campaign, I suggest we also permanently abandon infinity, it just wastes space and time, people have actually begun CALCULATING this fucking thing? Come now, this is a universal nuisance


And finally on my list of proposals, I'd like to introduce a new operation called "Shneshulation" represented by the symbol of "||"
When you shneshulate a number or concept you always get a new answer, example:

5||8=

wow, this was a very interesting shneshulation exercise, and I have to admit it took me for a real curve ball, here we see that 5 is being shneshulated by 8, initially you might approach the question from a symmetrical viewpoint : "The 5 should be reversed on the other end of the 8 to provide lateral symmetry"
However if you shneshulate further you see that this is not the most efficient function, quantifiably theres no correlation between the two amounts (at least not yet)
If anyone else has a better solution for 5||8 I'd like to hear it
My answer: Awestruck


Wow math is so much fun


--------------------



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InvisibleAnastomosisJihad
Hominid
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Registered: 01/01/08
Posts: 700
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: Diploid]
    #7869763 - 01/12/08 04:50 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

No. 1/0 is undefined. It is a disallowed operation in (almost) all of mathematics because it is a meaningless concept.





Quote:

Surely one divided by zero must equal infinity.

Infinity is not a number. It's a concept.

What you're describing is called a Limit in math.





Quote:

-1 approaches zero from -3, -2, and so on

EXACTLY! It is an asymptotic summation from both directions that never actually reaches zero because the free variable can never reach infinity, which is not a number.





We have come to the heart of this problem. Infinity is a limit on the mind's ability to conceive magnitude; it lies at one end of the conceivable magnitude spectrum, not a number so much as a concept: 'that-than which-nothing-greater-can-be-thought'. Zero lies at the other end of the same continuum; it is that than which nothing lesser can be thought. 
Negative numbers are not less than zero, they indicate magnitudes greater than zero in negative direction.

But if zero is a conceptual limit on the minds ability to think in terms of magnitude, then, like infinity, it is not a number at all.


I wonder what would happen if zero were expelled from the set of real numbers? I suspect the foundations of arithmetic would be shaken. :wink:


--------------------
come together


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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Phil math problem [Re: AnastomosisJihad]
    #7869793 - 01/12/08 04:56 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

You can invent any rules you want in math (like no 0, or no 1). The reason we use the rules where there is a 0 is that it then works if we want to build bridges, study stars, etc.


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Offlinekrin
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: DieCommie]
    #7869831 - 01/12/08 05:04 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Wow, and I really feel like im in a discussion about nothingness, what figures?


--------------------



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OfflineTheCow
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Registered: 10/28/02
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7869840 - 01/12/08 05:06 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
1/0 can be used, but it is every number between -infinity and +infinity, so it will render almost every equation senseless.

By division by something smaller 1 but larger zero, math goes into assumption as it sees only so many pieces at that part and through the (often false) rule of symmetry, it assumes, the other parts will have the same amount of pieces.



haha, yes, are you the cat that made my favorite post of all time? The one where we had to explain to someone why 1/(1/2) equals 2?


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Phil math problem [Re: TheCow]
    #7872140 - 01/13/08 01:50 AM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Yes :-)
And inbetween I figured out, the failure is all about the axion of symmetry, which doesn't apply to some real occasions (especially not to real world assumptions) :lol:
That's fun :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (01/13/08 01:56 AM)


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OfflineTheCow
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Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 4,790
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
Re: Phil math problem [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7873076 - 01/13/08 11:50 AM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Oh so you still don't get it?  Its all about units man.  1 apple per .5  persons, equals 2 apples per persons.  Half of you gets 1 apple, therefore whole you gets 2 apples.  Math isnt a magical toaster you can just throw shit into and itll come out exactly the way you want.  Its logical relations, you might have to interpret the results :shrug:  You  expect math to be magic


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