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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Registered: 09/18/07
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Perlite FC with an Ultra Sonic for misting.
    #7859017 - 01/10/08 11:56 AM (16 years, 22 days ago)

I did a search and it seems most people ask, "perlite, or ultra-sonic", without much discussion on using both.

The most common issue with perlite that people report is not enough humidity.

Most perlite FCs require misting, which means you have to remove the lid of your FC and drop the Rh by 20 points or more, all in the name of restoring moisture to the casing layer.

My foaf suggests tubing an ultra on a timer into your FC, to mist without removing the lid, and to restore moisture content to the casing layer and the perlite, which will absorb any excess moisture, provided it is damp and well drained to begin with.

Ideally, the ultra would be ran though a humidistat that turns it on at 92% Rh, and then off again at 99%, such units exist, but are a little expensive.


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Invisiblezyxwvutsr
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Re: Perlite FC with an Ultra Sonic for misting. [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7859051 - 01/10/08 12:01 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

so what is your question? Like, what are you wanting to know, can you use them both? or are you asking for suggestions on getting this to work?

if the latter, try your perlite with small holes toward the bottom stuffed with polyfill for air exchange. not too big or you will lose RH.

Not enough humidity with just perlite? answer: more surface area


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Invisiblesimplemachine
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Re: Perlite FC with an Ultra Sonic for misting. [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7859081 - 01/10/08 12:06 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

I think if you're going to put that much work into your setup, you might as well go for a greenhouse/martha.

I say this because...

1. There is no need to run tubing, therefore, construction is simpler, faster, and less prone to malfunction. An impeller humidifier inside the GH will take care of FAE and humidity.

2. I hate perlite. It covers everything in its sticky, wet, whiteness, and I won't have it in my house.

3. You can fit a good deal more substrate into the GH with less time and effort on construction and more focus on the mycology.


Thats just my 2 cents.


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: Perlite FC with an Ultra Sonic for misting. [Re: simplemachine]
    #7859111 - 01/10/08 12:12 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

All true, but Marthas are larger, FCs are small and portable, so yes, I agree, ideally there is a greenhouse with a Cool Mist and an Ultra, but when there is not, and a 176 quart FC Shotgun FC is.

Windchaser builds an ultra that is so easy to tube it's not even funny.

Isn't a Cool Mist preferred in a Martha/greenhouse?

All I am saying is that an Ultra tubed into a Shotgun Fc with perlite, can balance the Rh and provide that little extra boost most perlite users are after.


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InvisibleRoadkillM
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Re: Perlite FC with an Ultra Sonic for misting. [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7859119 - 01/10/08 12:14 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

for what?

casings or cakes?


~


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Invisiblesimplemachine
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Re: Perlite FC with an Ultra Sonic for misting. [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7859142 - 01/10/08 12:18 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

All I am saying is that an Ultra tubed into a Shotgun Fc with perlite, can balance the Rh and provide that little extra boost most perlite users are after.




Probably true, but I can't say I've tried.

Quote:

Isn't a Cool Mist preferred in a Martha/greenhouse?




A "cool mist impeller" is all I use, no ultrasonic. I've never seen one labeled "cool mist ultrasonic," but I've never looked for one, either.


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: Perlite FC with an Ultra Sonic for misting. [Re: Roadkill]
    #7859225 - 01/10/08 12:31 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Roadkill said:
for what?

casings or cakes?


~




For use with trays of cased substrate.

And you seem to agree, that to call it a casing is easier than to call it a cased substrate.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Perlite FC with an Ultra Sonic for misting. [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7859372 - 01/10/08 01:07 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Raising the humidity to 99% with an ultrasonic would not add moisture to the cake, casing layer, or perlite. Besides, perlite alone would give 95% to 99%. Don't confuse humidity in the air with added liquid moisture to the cake or perlite. Even at 100% humidity, you wouldn't be adding moisture to your project, you would only be slowing down the rate of evaporation.
RR


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: Perlite FC with an Ultra Sonic for misting. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7859481 - 01/10/08 01:25 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Okay, but you do advocate misting right?

Is it better to use a spray bottle to mist, or an ultra sonic to mist, assuming you used the same amount of water.

How does misting a casing layer with an ultra not add moisture to the casing layer?

If you misted perlite with an ultra, you are saying it won't pick-up any of that mist huh?

So you are saying that you cannot add moisture to a FC with an ultra, that the water vapor is not good in a FC, and it will not soak into any surface that is dry.

"Raising the humidity to 99% with an ultrasonic would not add moisture to the cake, casing layer, or perlite"
RR

So how do you add moisture? A spray bottle?

INDIRECT misting is good. BUMP UP your FAE.
-Agar 02/22/06

Once you have your pins set misting does not hurt them just like nature friend I always use a very fine mist from a pump-up misting bottle ($6) If ya don't have one of those and you really should then like DrewBaccA said mist above the cakes so only the fine mist soaks them,I've never had a problem (with misting) myself unless over watered but different strokes for different folks! Not misting the casings IMHO is very bad, your casings aren't going to wick the moisture needed to keep the substrate from drying let alone the massive amounts of water mushrooms require to mature.
-Hyphae 08/05/04

Misting will not abort pins. Leaving the pins wet in stale air after misting will cause them to abort. Set your mister for a very fine mist, then spray up into the air so the mist falls gently on the pins/substrate. Mist only if they're drying out, otherwise just let them grow. Be sure to fan well or otherwise up the air exchange until the moisture either soaks into the pins or evaporates off.
-RR 05/12/06

An ultrasonic is never necessary, just better to use than a spray bottle for misting, that's all.
-Monstermitch 10/29/06

"Magash--do you need a cool mist AND an ultrasonic for FAE? Can you get away with just using the ultrasonic and fanning?"
For best results I'd use both.
-Magash 09/21/05

I have my casings in a greenhouse with a cool mist and I still mist at least once a day sometimes more,I never let them get to dry and it works for me,Pull them out mist,fan and put them back,easy as pie as long as you don't mist to the point where there is water pooling you are fine
-Blutjager 10/23/06


A light, gentle misting won't harm the pins. Light and gentle! My friend has tried tap water, spring water, distilled water and all of the above with H2O2 with no noticeable difference. He's settled on a 10% mix by volume of tap water and 3% H2O2 with good results.
-Diploid 04/01/03



Edited by Captain Cubensis (01/10/08 01:50 PM)


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OfflineNibin
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Re: Perlite FC with an Ultra Sonic for misting. [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7859587 - 01/10/08 01:45 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Captain Cubensis said:
Okay, but you do advocate misting right?

Is it better to use a spray bottle to mist, or an ultra sonic to mist, assuming you used the same amount of water.

How does misting a casing layer with an ultra not add moisture to the casing layer?

If you misted perlite with an ultra, you are saying it won't pick-up any of that mist huh?

So you are saying that you cannot add moisture to a FC with an ultra, that the water vapor is not good in a FC, and it will not soak into any surface that is dry.

"Raising the humidity to 99% with an ultrasonic would not add moisture to the cake, casing layer, or perlite"
RR

So how do you add moisture? A spray bottle?




If the water in the air doesn't condensate, it won't be absorbed.

To add water to a casing layer or substrate you should physically wet it by misting it with, ideally a pump spray bottle as they make finer drops.


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: Perlite FC with an Ultra Sonic for misting. [Re: Nibin]
    #7859631 - 01/10/08 01:51 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Nibin said:

So how do you add moisture? A spray bottle?




If the water in the air doesn't condensate, it won't be absorbed.

To add water to a casing layer or substrate you should physically wet it by misting it with, ideally a pump spray bottle as they make finer drops.




Are you saying a pump spray bottle produces finer droplets then an ultra sonic?


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OfflineNibin
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Re: Perlite FC with an Ultra Sonic for misting. [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7859664 - 01/10/08 01:56 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Captain Cubensis said:
Quote:

Nibin said:

So how do you add moisture? A spray bottle?




If the water in the air doesn't condensate, it won't be absorbed.

To add water to a casing layer or substrate you should physically wet it by misting it with, ideally a pump spray bottle as they make finer drops.




Are you saying a pump spray bottle produces finer droplets then an ultra sonic?




No, I'm saying that an ultrasonic produces droplets so fine they are too fine. Ever walk through mist or fog? Did you get sopping wet? No.
Maybe a little bit damp but nothing much.

Noy spray yourself with the pump spray bottle. Notice the difference? You are wet.

You need to wet the substrate and casing layer.


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Edited by Nibin (01/10/08 01:57 PM)


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: Perlite FC with an Ultra Sonic for misting. [Re: Nibin]
    #7859713 - 01/10/08 02:05 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Run an ultra in a FC for 10 minutes and every surface will be lightly wet to the touch, or misted one might say.

In 20-30 minutes you are condensing droplets all over.

You are saying that the water droplets from an ultra are too fine huh?

Too fine for what? Condensing? Then surely you have never had an ultra.


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OfflineNibin
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Re: Perlite FC with an Ultra Sonic for misting. [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7859757 - 01/10/08 02:11 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Too fine to directly wet the cake. I already mentioned condensation above.

You really enjoy arguing for arguments sake don't you CC.

I officially declare I will answer no more posts of yours. I've had too much.


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: Perlite FC with an Ultra Sonic for misting. [Re: Nibin]
    #7859863 - 01/10/08 02:29 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Once again, this argument was all you trying to bicker about terms.

Ultra sonic humidifiers add water vapor to the air, which is often referred to as moisture. If you run the ultra long enough, all the surfaces get covered with a thin blanket of the most readily accessible H2O possible.

For Roger to claim, "Raising the humidity to 99% with an ultrasonic would not add moisture to the cake, casing layer, or perlite", is flat out wrong, as he is fond of saying.

If an ultra cannot add moisture to a cake, casing layer, or perlite, as you claim Roger, then where does that gallon of water go to? It starts in the ultra, then get pumped into the FC.

Quite a magic trick to make a gallon of water disappear into a 176 quart tub without making anything in the tub moist.

In fact this assertion is so ridiculous that most people would be laughed at for saying what Roger said.

Trust me Roger, if you run an ultra long enough you add moisture, big time, like as much as you want.

All the moisture that condenses on the walls of the FC run down to the perlite, moistening the perlite, since it is water.

Mist falls gentle on your casing layer, adding moisture.

If you have cakes in the FC, misting with an ultra will wet the surface of the cake to saturation if you run it long enough.

Hell, you could add humidity by putting a saturated sponge in a tub, try it, it works if the sponge is large enough compared to the bin.

That's what we use in guitar cases, wet sponges, they keep my cases at 50% when ambient is less then 20%.

Roger is so hell bent on making me look wrong at all costs that he is beginning to get ridiculous, and starting to contradict himself.

He said, above, in writing, in order to make me look wrong, that by misting perlite, a cake, a casing, an FC, you are not adding moisture.

A misted cake will dry out just as fast as a non misted one then I presume? How ridiculous!

"Raising the humidity to 99% with an ultrasonic would not add moisture to the cake, casing layer, or perlite. Even at 100% humidity, you wouldn't be adding moisture to your project, you would only be slowing down the rate of evaporation.."
RogerRabbit

Maybe the lamest post he has ever made, intentionally wrong to be mean, or ignorant of what water vapor can do in an enclosed space.


Edited by Captain Cubensis (01/10/08 03:21 PM)


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InvisibleCrasher
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Re: Perlite FC with an Ultra Sonic for misting. [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7859880 - 01/10/08 02:33 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

and here I was under the impression that high humidity was merely preventing the rapid evaporation of water from your cake or cased substrate.

holy crap cc, I said cased substrate and not casing.


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: Perlite FC with an Ultra Sonic for misting. [Re: Crasher]
    #7860127 - 01/10/08 03:19 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Even at 100% humidity, you wouldn't be adding moisture to your project, you would only be slowing down the rate of evaporation.
-RR

Weird man, are you feeling okay Roger?

You are saying that at 100% Rh with an ultra sonic humidifier pumping mist into an FC, that you are still not adding moisture.

Slowing evaporation and adding moisture are 2 parts of the same process, one cannot occur without the other.

So I get it, you place your cased substrates, not casings, in a FC, and mist to slow evaporation, not to add moisture.

So for every gallon of water run through the ultra, the casing is evaporating 1 gallon of water minus the water that evaporated out of the FC.

So Roger's point is this, you cannot add moisture to a casing layer, perlite, or a cake, you can only slow evaporation.

So that the amount of moisture in the perlite, casing layer, or cake is fixed at birth, and can never be added to by water vapor saturating the chamber completely covering every little nook and cranny in fine mist.


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Re: Perlite FC with an Ultra Sonic for misting. [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7860150 - 01/10/08 03:25 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Captain,
RR has been in mycology for a spell, and has more exp than I do, and we do things differently on some levels. Generally, he does things correctly with a scientific approach and I kind of half ass it as I do everything else in life. The point being, He not only provides a great amount of time to the forums, but he also debunks unproven methods and determines better ways to cultivate. He has even paid for a laboratory to analyze some of his fungi to disprove the theory that mushrooms grown in aluminum pans contain trace elements of aluminum.
That in itself has gained my respect.

The fact is, what roger does here on the forums is out of good will and the spread of knowledge and I'm sure there are lots of other things he could do with his time than correct stubborn noobs everyday.

If you don't agree, there's no reason to attack his credibility and pick his posts apart.


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: Perlite FC with an Ultra Sonic for misting. [Re: Fraggin]
    #7860164 - 01/10/08 03:28 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

If you don't agree, there's no reason to attack his credibility and pick his posts apart.
Fraggin

Yet, you seem to think that is Roger's job as a moderator, cause that's exactly what he does, for 3 hours per day, he attacks peoples credibility and picks apart their posts.


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Re: Perlite FC with an Ultra Sonic for misting. [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7860193 - 01/10/08 03:34 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)



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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Perlite FC with an Ultra Sonic for misting. [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7860239 - 01/10/08 03:44 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

No need to respond to his lack of understanding any more in this thread. The captain has decided to take a little time-out. There is a big difference between providing moisture to the air, which is vapor, and continuing to apply moisture to already saturated air, which then essentially 'rains' on whatever is below. This has been explained to him so many times, half the members here have worn the letters off their keyboards.

Members are more than welcome to post questions, and the other members will be more than happy to explain things. However, once in a while someone comes along who just simply can't get it, no matter how many times things have been explained. For those people there is no other option than the door. We can't have the forum disrupted by constant flaming and nit-picking, especially by someone who doesn't understand the most basic principles of mycology or physical science. Good luck to all, and I apologize to the new members for the drama created by his trolling.
RR


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Offlineclownbaby
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Re: Perlite FC with an Ultra Sonic for misting. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #22997735 - 03/11/16 10:09 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

I found this thread to be incredibly interesting. Mind if I open it back up?

I have had a natural attraction to growing from a young age, been growing on and off on here for over 10 years. I don't post much, I read much and I have realized how helpful topic searching is.

I have done some great grows on straw/hpoo but at the moment am growing standard pftek 8oz jars in sgfc.

The trouble is that I am in a high cold dry mountainous area. I had to block the hot air vent in the room from the forced air system to prevent drying of the cakes.

Otherwise I find the sgfc to be genious. I wrapped a small heating pad underneath and serran wrapped the bottom half of the tub (but not the BOTTOM BOTTOM). The Sgfc sits on a two bricks. I mist and fan as regular. However my cakes are turning blue, drying, I dunked rerolled. Drying.

Now I am considering the ultrasonic and did a search for that.

RR, I do not mean a challenge in any way I have more of a specific question.

What if you ran an ultrasonic on click on click off... say 20 mins ultra every 4 hours.

But I do not feel I would even need to open the sgfc but for a few fans. It then doesn't even need manual spraying more than just a few fans now and then.

Would something like this work??

Remember Im in such a dry place, I could run a humidfier in room... but it seems more effective to run a humidifier clicking on and off into the sgfc - but instead of humdifier perhaps the ultra.  What do you think is this a possible beneficial idea?

I'll post pics if this thread expands. Thanks.


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Re: Perlite FC with an Ultra Sonic for misting. [Re: clownbaby]
    #22997750 - 03/11/16 10:14 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

By the way, I just have 4 small cakes in a small tub which fits them nicely. Standard sgfc. just wanted to clarify that detail. Remember, this is a simplistic humble grow and I am talking about easy simplistic set ups. I have a natural appreciation for the mushrooms and their bold character.

Perhaps others can share simple FCs which have worked best in dry, cold regions where there is perhaps hot forced air running indoors. Thanks folks.


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InvisibleZiran
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Re: Perlite FC with an Ultra Sonic for misting. [Re: clownbaby]
    #22997755 - 03/11/16 10:16 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

do you have a fan running in the room your sgfc is in?


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Re: Perlite FC with an Ultra Sonic for misting. [Re: clownbaby]
    #22997758 - 03/11/16 10:17 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

There are better solutions to your problem IMO. You'd be better off leaving the FC in a room with a space heater. Heating mats throw the natural air flow of the SGFC out of kilter, it really defeats the purpose of it.
Dry environment? Mist the cakes more often and directly, and make sure your perlite is always damp.


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Re: Perlite FC with an Ultra Sonic for misting. [Re: WellEndowedPenguin]
    #22997777 - 03/11/16 10:20 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Also, you gotta learn to read the mycelium, if it looks dry mist it. It's recommended to always check the date of the posts you read. This is a 8 year old post and full of bad info (even though I haven't read it :lol:)


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Re: Perlite FC with an Ultra Sonic for misting. [Re: WellEndowedPenguin]
    #22997782 - 03/11/16 10:21 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

I am not sure that you understand how dry the air is, it sucks the moisture out right away though I may spray 3-5 times a day, rewet the perlite or even pour some water into the perlite (4" worth), still becomes dry.

Does anyone have advice or direct experience with this particular environment, and does running a humidifier in room work ? clicking on and off perhaps?

would anyone attach an ultra directly to the sgfc?

I'll get some pictures up in the morning, its late here and I'm pensive about this batch of creatures.


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Re: Perlite FC with an Ultra Sonic for misting. [Re: clownbaby]
    #22997792 - 03/11/16 10:24 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

I do feel that I read the mycellium pretty well. And even though its an older post (I noticed) I don't feel that its all been outdated or irrelevant, I am curious if there is a tek solution for this or if someone has had direct experience.

Cakes are pinning, I have a good sprayer but I'm hesitant to really mist the cakes super directly. I usually spray above and sometimes from a couple feet back as well to try to really glisten the cakes. This water evaps too quickly. Thus, I am considering a system where I only open the lid a couple times a day but theres some moisture pumping in every few hours.

Am I re inventing the wheel here?


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Re: Perlite FC with an Ultra Sonic for misting. [Re: clownbaby] * 1
    #22997806 - 03/11/16 10:27 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Good luck finding someone who'd say any different from what I said.
Also, the perlite has to be moist, ok... But the fruits are the ones who have to be misted DIRECTLY!!, surface moisture is key.


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Re: Perlite FC with an Ultra Sonic for misting. [Re: clownbaby]
    #22997869 - 03/11/16 10:54 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

You don't think this thread is full of bad information, even though the OP of the thread got banned by RR?

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
No need to respond to his lack of understanding any more in this thread.  The captain has decided to take a little time-out.  There is a big difference between providing moisture to the air, which is vapor, and continuing to apply moisture to already saturated air, which then essentially 'rains' on whatever is below.  This has been explained to him so many times, half the members here have worn the letters off their keyboards.

Members are more than welcome to post questions, and the other members will be more than happy to explain things.  However, once in a while someone comes along who just simply can't get it, no matter how many times things have been explained.  For those people there is no other option than the door.  We can't have the forum disrupted by constant flaming and nit-picking, especially by someone who doesn't understand the most basic principles of mycology or physical science.  Good luck to all, and I apologize to the new members for the drama created by his trolling.
RR




I'm inclined to think you aren't the best judge of outdated info.


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Re: Perlite FC with an Ultra Sonic for misting. [Re: Inocuole]
    #22997892 - 03/11/16 11:12 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Raising the humidity to 99% with an ultrasonic would not add moisture to the cake, casing layer, or perlite. Besides, perlite alone would give 95% to 99%. Don't confuse humidity in the air with added liquid moisture to the cake or perlite. Even at 100% humidity, you wouldn't be adding moisture to your project, you would only be slowing down the rate of evaporation. 
RR"


"
Read what RR Said.



Dude you really aren't doing yourself any favors by adding a heating pad and Saran wrapping the bottom half of your SGFC.

Get that stuff off!! If you get rid of that junk and run your SGFC the way you are supposed to you will get much better results than adding a humidifyer.


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Re: Perlite FC with an Ultra Sonic for misting. [Re: mushpunx]
    #22997921 - 03/11/16 11:29 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Things that are terribly wrong with all of this:

-Heating the chamber, not the room (dries out substrates and the chamber, interesting)
-Not misting cakes directly (hmm wonder why they dry out so fast..)
-4 cakes isn't enough, they hold moisture better when there's like 10 of them clustered together.

People in even the driest climates can use a SGFC correctly when it's... used correctly.


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Re: Perlite FC with an Ultra Sonic for misting. [Re: mushpunx]
    #22997928 - 03/11/16 11:32 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

could he simply make the air outside the chamber more humid to slow the evap process? or would that even matter?


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Re: Perlite FC with an Ultra Sonic for misting. [Re: Ziran]
    #22998005 - 03/12/16 12:08 AM (7 years, 10 months ago)

It's not necessary.  The more dry the air on the outside is the more readily the moisture in the perlite will evaporate, therefore the higher the humidity in the actual chamber where it matters.  Just gotta keep the perlite moist and mist cakes directly. :shrug:


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Re: Perlite FC with an Ultra Sonic for misting. [Re: Inocuole] * 1
    #22998011 - 03/12/16 12:11 AM (7 years, 10 months ago)

inoc. have i mentioned i love you yet today? if you were a piece of cake id eat the fuck outta you... and i dont even like cake.


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Re: Perlite FC with an Ultra Sonic for misting. [Re: Ziran]
    #22998054 - 03/12/16 12:25 AM (7 years, 10 months ago)

:icouldjusteatyou:


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