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OfflineFarFromHere
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"Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti * 1
    #7857444 - 01/10/08 10:04 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

"Peyotes, False Peyotes and other psychoactive Cacti"


Hi, I am Far From Here...

This is my first post here on the shroomy.

I have a project which I have begin working on- Cultivating the "Peyotes" and "False Peyotes" of Mexico and the USA.



I cataorgize the "Peyotes and Fasle Peyotes" as follows-

"Peyote"- This is THE Peyote, and the only accepted Peyote of our modern culture.

Lophophora williamsii

"Lost Peyotes"- Truly Psychoactive Peyotes not currently accepted by our modern culture.

(Suspects)
Ariocarpus fissuratus
Ariocarpus kotschoubeyanus
Coryphantha species
Lophophora diffusa
Mammillaria species
Pelecyphora strobiliformis
Strombocactus disciformis
Turbinicarpus pseudomacrochele
Turbinicarpus pseudopectinatus

"Medicinal Peyotes"- Peyote with Medicinal, but not Psychoactive properties.

(Suspect)
Epithelantha micromeris


"False Peyotes"- Peyotes which only resemble Lophophora in appearce, but do not have Psychoactive or Medicinal properties.

(Suspects)
Astrophytum asterias
Aztekium ritteri
Obregonia denegrii



(List due to change as we learn more about these cacti)


Here is some info on the Subject-






ARIOCARPUS RETUSUS SCHEIDW. - Cactaceae (Peyote Cimarron/Tsuwiri)

-------------------------- RITUAL EMPLOYMENT: This cactus has only little to do with the real Peyote. By some Indian tribes it's called Tsuwiri which means "False Peyote" since it has similar effects. By some tribes it's also called chautle or chaute. The Tarahumara Indians tell that Ariocarpus is stronger than Peyote and they use it in their rituals. Other Indian tribes like the Huichol's tell that Ariocarpus is a plant of the devil and that it's really dangerous to use. Some tribes tell that the impure man who searchs peyote finds the false peyote and goes mad, or at least has a bad trip. There are also other species of Ariocarpus which are ritually employed, for example Ariocarpus Fissuratus which is called Sunami and considered stronger than Peyote. If I find more informations I will cover these cactii's in a future release.
USAGE: I don't think it's a very good recreational drug, first we don't know a lot about it and second I think for any normal person it would be quite expensive to buy the needed amount of cactii's, but it may be worth trying if you have the oppurtunity. The cactus may be chewed fresh or dried, probably it may be also brewed in a tea. Start with low doses.
ACTIVE PRINCIPLES: The active principles of A.Retusus are several Phenylethylamine derivates: Hordenine, N-Methyltyramine (0.02%) and trace amounts N-methyl-3,4-dimethoxy-B-phenethylamine and N-methyl-4-B-phenethylamine. A substance called Retusine (3,3',4',7-tetramethoxy-5-hydroxytlavon) is also contained. An interesting thing about Ariocarpus retusus is that pharmacologically the alkaloid content is too low in order to be psychoactive.
EFFECTS: Not much is known, although the effects are reported to be similar to those of Mescaline.
DANGERS: Unfortunately I'm not able to tell about the dangers of the A.Retusus use, but I think there are some risks since the Huichol tell that this cactus is evil. I think Trichoreus Pachanoi or Lophophora Williamsii (Anhalonium Lewinii - Peyote) is the better and safer way to use cactii's, however I know people who want to try everything once.
SOURCES: This cactus, like peyote grows in rocky deserts, I was able to spot an exemplar at Londons Kew Gardens. You may also able to buy it at some greater gardener shop but I only suppose. Unfortunately Ariocarpus is a very, very slow growing cactus and needs years to mature.




CORYPHANTA MACROMERIS - Cactaceae (Donana)
--------------------- RITUAL EMPLOYMENT: C.macromeris is valued as medicine among a lot of Indian tribes.
USAGE: In order to eat the cactus the spines are removed and 8-12 of the fresh or dried cactiis are eaten on an empty stomach. They may be chewed or crushed and brewed for 1 hour as tea. One of my references says that approx. 1 kilogram of dried cactiis are needed in order to produce a psychoactive effect. The same reference suggests to perform an extraction. I really wonder why some reference says that 10 cactiis are needed and another says that a kilogram is needed.
ACTIVE PRINCIPLES: The active principle is Macromerine (L-alpha-3,4-dimethoxyphenyl-beta- dimethylaminoethanol), a substance with approx. 1/5 the gram potency of Mescaline. Coryphanta also contains trace amounts of: Normacromerine, N-formylnormacromerine, Tyramine, N-methyltyramine, Hordenine, N-methyl-3,4-dimethoxy-B-phenethylamin, Metanephrin and Synephrin. Other species of Coryphanta which contain Macromerine are: C.compacta, C.pectinada, C.elephantideus, C.runyonii, C.cornifera var. echineus. Species which contain the other minor alkaloids are: C.cornifera, C.durangensis, C.ottonis, C.poselgeriana and C.ramillosa. Other species of Coryphanta have also been reported as hallucinogens, for example C.palmerii. EFFECTS: The effects are reported to be very similar to those of Mescaline. Macromerine is a legal substances in most countries.
DANGERS: This substance should not be taken in high doses along with strong MAOI's. No other dangers are known.

ECHINOCEREUS TRIGLOCHIDIATUS - Cactaceae (Pitallito/Hikuri)
---------------------------- RITUAL EMPLOYMENT: The Tarahumara Indians consider both E.Triglochidiatus and E.salmdyckianus a so-called false Peyote. USAGE: Probably the cactus is chewed or brewed as tea however we have no reports of its exact usage.
ACTIVE PRINCIPLES: A tryptamine derivate has been reported.
EFFECTS: We have no reports of its effects, they may differ from those of Mescaline since the active principle is a tryptamine.
DANGERS: Little is known about this cactus, start with low doses.


EPITHELANTHA MICROMERIS - Cactaceae (Hikuli Mulato/Hikuli Rosapara)
----------------------- RITUAL EMPLOYMENT: This cactus is another so-called false Peyote of the Tarahumara Indians. Medicine men take Hikuli Mulato to make their sight clearer and permit them to commune with sorcerers. It is taken by runners as stimulant and 'protector,. The Indians also believe it prolongs life. Some botanists consider E.Micromeris a cactus of the species Mamillaria micromeris in a later phase of his life.
USAGE: Exact preparation is not known, probably the cactus may be chewed or brewed as tea.
ACTIVE PRINCIPLES: Alkaloids and triterpenes have been reported.
EFFECTS: Unfortunately we have no reports, they may be similar to mescaline since its a false Peyote however there was no mescaline reported.
DANGERS: We know very little about this cactus, start with low doses.


MAMMILLARIA SENILIS - Cactaceae (Wichuriki/Hikuli)
------------------- RITUAL EMPLOYMENT: Among the most important 'false peyotes, of the Tarahumara Indians are several species of Mammillaria, including: M.senilis, M.heyderii, M.craigii, M.grahamii, M.micromeris.
USAGE: Ritually the cactus is split open, sometimes roasted, and the central tissue is used. The top of the plant, divested of its spines, is the most powerful part. Probably a psychoactive tea may also be brewed.
ACTIVE PRINCIPLES: N-methyl-3,4-dimethoxy-phenylethylamine has been isolated from M.heyderii, a species closely related to M.craigii.
EFFECTS: Deep sleep, during which a person is said to travel great distances, and brilliant colors characterize the intoxication.
DANGERS: Not known, start with small doses.




PACHYCEREUS PECTEN-ABORIGINUM - Cactaceae (Cawe/Wichowaka)
----------------------------- RITUAL EMPLOYMENT: Its a plant of many uses among the Indians, the Tarahumara who call the plant Cawe or Wichowaka use it for intoxication. The term Wichowaka also means 'insanity, in the Tarahumara language.
USAGE: The Indians take a drink made from the juice of the young branches as a narcotic. I wonder if brewing a tea from the cactus would work.
ACTIVE PRINCIPLES: Recently the substance 4-hydroxy-3-methoxyphenyl-ethylamine and 4 tetra-hydroisoquinoline alkaloids were isolated from P.pecten-aboriginum.
EFFECTS: It is reported to cause dizziness and visual hallucinations. DANGERS: Very little is known, probably quite safe but start with small doses if you want to try.


PELECYPHORA ASELLIFORMIS - Cactaceae (Peyotillo)
------------------------ RITUAL EMPLOYMENT: Although definitive proof must await further field work, there are suspicions that this round cactus may be valued in Mexico as a 'false Peyote,. It is locally known as Peyote and Peyotillo.
USAGE: Not reported, I suppose the cactus is chewed and swallowed, brewing a tea should also work.
ACTIVE PRINCIPLES: The cactus contains trace amounts of Mescaline (too few to be psychoactive) and little amounts of: Anhalidine, Anhaladine, Hordenine, N-methylmescaline, Pellotine, 3-dimethyltrichocereine, B-phenylethylamine, N-methyl-B-phenylethylamine, 3,4-dimethoxy-B-phenylethylamine, N-methyl-3,4-dimethoxy-B-phenylethylamine and 4-methoxy-B-phenylethylamine. Most of these alkaloids are also found in Peyote but in much greater concentration.
EFFECTS: If it really is psychoactive the effects probably are quite similar to those of Peyote.
DANGERS: Unfortunately not known, probably quite safe, start with small doses.







PLANTS CONFUSED WITH OR CALLED PEYOTE
Two factors have led to the confusion of various plants and the name peyote: (1) a similarity of appearance because of pubescence, a globose shape, or growth habit, and (2) a similar physiological effect or use for medicinal or religious purposes. In fact, most of the plants that are sometimes called "peyote" possess both of these characters.
Many alkaloid-containing cacti are commonly called "peyote" but they are not in the genus Lophophora, and, even though some of the alkaloids are the same, probably they have few or no physiological actions similar to the true peyote. Cacti that have at one time or another been called "peyote" or the Spanish diminutive "peyotillo" are:
Ariocarpus fissuratus—more frequently called "living rock" or "chautle" but also "peyote cimarr6n."
A. kotschoubeyanus—usually called "Pezuna de venado" or "pata de venado."
A. retusus—usually called "chautle" or "chaute."
Astrophytum asterias—surprisingly similar in appearance to Lophophora.
A. capricorne—also called "biznaga de estropajo."
A. myriostigma—called "peyote cimarr6n," "mitra," and "birrete de obispo" (bishop's cap or miter).
Aztekium ritterii—another small, globose cactus with superficial resemblance to Lophophora.
Mammillaria (Dolichothele) longimamma—sometimes called "peyotillo."
M. (Solisia) pectinifera
Obregonia denegrii
Pelecyphora aselliformis—commonly called "peyotillo" and sold as such in the native markets. Contains some of the alkaloids possessed by Lophophora, including small amounts of mescaline.
Strombocactus disciformis—similar in appearance to Lophophora and occurring in the same general area as L. diffusa.
Turbinicarpus pseudopectinata

Other plant families, including the Compositae, Crassulaceae, Leguminosae, and Solanaceae, also have representatives that occasionally are called "peyote." A member of the Compositae was first described as a type of peyote by the Spanish physician, Francisco Hernandez, in his early study of the plants of New Spain.[19] In his book he described two peyotes: the first, Peyotl Zacatecensi, clearly was Lophophora, whereas the other, Peyotl Xochimilcensi, apparently was Cacalia cordifolia, a Compositae which had "velvety tubers" and was used medicinally. Other sunflowers of the closely-related genus Senecio have also been called such things as "peyote del Valle de Mexico" and "peyote de Tepic."
"Mescal" is the correct name for the alcoholic beverage obtained from the century plant, Agave americana, but was also used by missionaries and officials of the Bureau of Indian Affairs for peyote. Possibly this was an attempt to confuse Congressmen and the public into thinking that peyote was an "intoxicant" similar to alcohol, but it just may have been a case of incorrect information perpetuated unwittingly.
The name "mescal beans" has also been applied incorrectly to peyote but actually is the common name of Sophora secundiflora of the Leguminosae. The beans of this plant contain cytisine, a toxic pyridine that causes nausea, convulsions, hallucinations, and even death if taken in too large quantities.[20] The colorful red beans have been used for centuries both in Mexico and the United States by the Indians for medicinal and ceremonial purposes, and sometimes the seeds of this desert shrub are worn as necklaces by the leaders of peyote ceremonies. The stimulatory and hallucinatory nature of these beans probably led to the confusion with peyote, especially when the latter occasionally was called "mescal." The probable relationship of the old mescal bean ceremony and the modern peyote cult also may have led to confusion by white men.

Coryphantha compacta



Epithalantha micromeris



Pelecyphora aselliformis




More info
Still more info[/url]








A few pics of "Peyotes and False Peyotes"-

Ariocarpus fissuratus




Strombocactus Disciformis


Turbinicarpus pseudopectinatus














My plan is to eventually have 3-5 of each of these so that I may preserve the species and the genetics. When they began to flower, I will send seeds out to the community for the cost of shipping, in order to propagate the species and preserve the genetics.

What I'm asking for is some help.

I've only grown cacti from seed once.

So I may indeed fail.(Though I will try again, and again)

Perhaps some of you will take up my quest in an attempt to preserve these beautiful and wonderful medicinal cacti.

If anyone has any suggestions of what species to add to my list, please let me know.

My priority are the "Peyotes", as their habitat is being destoryed the fastest, but eventually I would like to grow ALL suspected psychoactive or medicinal cacti.

I would like to make a comprehensive list of suspected psychoactive or medicinal cacti, please let me know if I’ve missed a species.

I simply cannot believe we overlook the potential of these amazing plants.

Trichocereus and Lophophora are the only cacti we hold in reverence, yet so many other beneifical cacti exist.

Lets get out there and find them!



Comprehensive list of Peyotes-

Ariocarpus agavoides
A. fissuratus
A. kotschoubeyanus
A. retusus
Armatocereus laetus
Astrophytum asterias
A. capricorne
A. myriostigma
Aztekium ritterii
Coryphantha compacta
C. elephantidens
C. macromeris
C. palmerii
C. rosea
Dolichothele longimamma
Epithalantha micromeris
Gymnocalycium spp.
Leuchtenbergia principis
Lophophora williamsii
Lophophora diffusa
Mammillaria spp.
Mammillaria craigii
M. grahamii
M. heydeii
Mamillopsis senilis
Obregonia denegrii
Pelecyphora aselliformis
P. pseudopectinata
Solisia pectinata
Strombocactus disciformis
Turbinicarpus pseudomacrochele
T. pseudopectinatus


Comprehensive list of Psychoactive Cacti (Other than those listed as "Peyotes")-


Carnegiea gigantea
Echinocactus spp.
Echinocactus grandis
E. grusonii
E. visnaga
Echinocereus salm-dyckianus
E. triglochidiatus
Epiphyllum spp.
Matucana madisoniorum
Neoraimondia macrostibas
Opuntia leptocaulis
Pachycereus pecten-aboriginum
Trichocereus species


Candidates for Ingestion-

Coryphantha species
Epithalantha micromeris
Mammillaria spp.
Pelecyphora aselliformis or P. pseudopectinata
Strombocactus disciformis
Turbinicarpus pseudomacrochele or T. pseudopectinatus




Research needs to be done into the actual effects of these cacti.

I say we debate over species and dosage, have people donate cacti and get somebody to ingest one and write a full report.

What do y'all think?


--------------------
"We are the one's we have been waiting for" -Hopi Proverb


Edited by royer9864 (01/10/08 01:25 PM)


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OfflineCoaster
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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: FarFromHere] * 1
    #7857480 - 01/10/08 10:16 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

they kinda look like pinapples


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OfflineFarFromHere
~Teotzlcoatl~
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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: Coaster] * 1
    #7857484 - 01/10/08 10:18 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

They taste like pineapples, coaster! :smirk:


--------------------
"We are the one's we have been waiting for" -Hopi Proverb


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Offlineroyer
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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: FarFromHere] * 1
    #7857709 - 01/10/08 01:22 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

please read the rules of the ethno forum and follow them please, no non sponsor links will be allowed!


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OfflineDr. uarewotueat
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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: FarFromHere] * 1
    #7857821 - 01/10/08 03:31 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

hi teo, welcome back :crankey:

Quote:

Research needs to be done into the actual effects of these cacti.

I say we debate over species and dosage, have people donate cacti and get somebody to ingest one and write a full report.

What do y'all think?




i say take this to the psychedelic experience forum and debate it there.


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Offlineeve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--
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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: Dr. uarewotueat] * 1
    #7857947 - 01/10/08 04:25 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

It would be neat to have a safe place for some Ariocarpus - like a whole couple hillsides, but people couldn't know about them to keep them safe for as slowly as they grow. This is a study that therefore will be done in private. I would like to work with Coryphanta. Too many of them for a dose to make them a good rip off, but one can extract or condense qualities.


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...or something







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OfflineDr. uarewotueat
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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: FarFromHere] * 1
    #7858007 - 01/10/08 04:45 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

btw teo, please dont insult me by denying this is u...
u made an almost identical post at the corroboree forums under the teot'z screen name...


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Edited by uarewotueat (01/10/08 06:54 PM)


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Offlinefelixhigh
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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: Dr. uarewotueat] * 1
    #7858123 - 01/10/08 05:25 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

:hehehe:


FH


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OfflineFarFromHere
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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: felixhigh] * 1
    #7859224 - 01/10/08 09:30 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I say take this to the psychedelic experience forum and debate it there.





Does this mean I should start another thread over there?

Because a huge part of them is gonna be about cultivation.

I plan on growing from seeds and I'm sure I'll have lots of questions that maybe somebody could help me with...


--------------------
"We are the one's we have been waiting for" -Hopi Proverb


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InvisibleKnoa6
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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: FarFromHere] * 1
    #7861285 - 01/11/08 04:47 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I thought u where perma-banned Teo?
farfromhere is even your email address from your old account here, plus this is almost the same post you made under the "Teo" name in the botanical swap here.
I thought you would try a little harder to be incognito :shrug:

but at least there will be some action in the garden now!
Welcome back!


Edited by Knoa6 (01/11/08 04:48 AM)


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OfflineFarFromHere
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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: Knoa6] * 1
    #7861324 - 01/11/08 04:55 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

The mods let me back on.

But "Teo" is dead.

"Teo" was an idiot.

I'm older and wiser now and I hope people will just let "Teotzlcoatl" die.

Knoa I'd appreciate if you edited you post and remove all that stuff about that "teo" guy.

Please nobody bring "teo" up anymore, I want to start over...

Now does anybody have anything to say about CACTUSES?


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"We are the one's we have been waiting for" -Hopi Proverb


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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: FarFromHere] * 1
    #7861385 - 01/11/08 05:09 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

you will always be Teo to me...:happyheart:


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OfflineFarFromHere
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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: Knoa6] * 1
    #7861391 - 01/11/08 05:12 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Well the cats out of the bag anyways...

Will the next person who posts please talk about cacti?



Edited by FarFromHere (01/11/08 05:13 AM)


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Invisiblecpw1971
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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: Knoa6] * 1
    #7861404 - 01/11/08 05:14 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Knoa6 said:
but at least there will be some action in the garden now!
Welcome back!



yeah man tell me about it. I come in here all the time and there isnt shit for new threads much lately. the garden is like the only section I really use much in the shroomery.


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OfflineFarFromHere
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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: cpw1971] * 1
    #7861418 - 01/11/08 05:17 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I'm walking on thin ice, I've got to be good and keep everyone happy, or I get the boot!


--------------------
"We are the one's we have been waiting for" -Hopi Proverb


Edited by FarFromHere (01/11/08 06:10 AM)


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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: FarFromHere] * 1
    #7861483 - 01/11/08 05:29 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I can appreciate your enthusiasm Teo, and this is a good post IMO. Just stay off the "genetically superior true blue Trichocereus peruvianus" subject:rofl:


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OfflineFarFromHere
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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: Knoa6] * 1
    #7861731 - 01/11/08 06:05 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

A Blue T. peruvianus with long red spines that is extremely entheogenically potent?!?






PREPOSTEROUS!!! :smirk:









Back to the issue at hand...


Is anyone esle interested in this research and the effects of these mysterious cacti?


Edited by FarFromHere (01/11/08 06:09 AM)


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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: FarFromHere] * 1
    #7861797 - 01/11/08 06:13 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Astrophytum asteria has medicinal value to some tribes.


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OfflineFarFromHere
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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: Knoa6] * 1
    #7861810 - 01/11/08 06:16 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Really?

Could you post some info or PM me a link?

That's interesting.

I thought it was a "False Peyote" only resembling Lophophora in appearace and not medicinal or entheogenic use.


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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: FarFromHere] * 1
    #7861828 - 01/11/08 06:18 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I know you thought that.

I'll find a link sometime l8r I'm sleepy  :sheesha:


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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: FarFromHere]
    #7863177 - 01/11/08 10:10 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Ariocarpus fissuratus is known as the false peyote. So your list is pretty flawed. Or rather the nomenclature you use.


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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: Knoa6]
    #7863361 - 01/11/08 11:09 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

hello look like is the dry seasom .
i love this thread,
i can fell almost quoting some times.
here is a good place for ´pictures of most all the types a variability of mexico of ariocarpus
http://server3.foros.net/viewtopic.php?p=1507&mforum=JardinMex
i have access to the central part of distributiun of the species listed that include some mamilarias , coriphathas and astrofytum , ariocarpus really love to see some serius study on the subject ,
let get this thread going and adding information i´´ love to help and focus on the difussa myth ....


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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: cactu]
    #7864203 - 01/11/08 07:02 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I know Ariocarpus fissuratus is THE false peyote.


I list them differently.


I put A. fissuratus under "Lost peyotes" because I think it might have real psychoactive properties.

Quote:


I'd really love to see some serious study on the subject.





Me too!


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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: FarFromHere]
    #7864394 - 01/11/08 07:50 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

As I said: your nomenclature is flawed. I can call a lobelia for false peyote, that doesn't make it so.


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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: Nalim]
    #7864425 - 01/11/08 07:59 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

well.

Then we will have to lump the psychoactive ones in with the false or non-psychoactive ones.

I'm only using these terms for this project.



"Peyote"- This is THE Peyote, and the only accepted Peyote of our modern culture.
"Lost Peyotes"- Truly Psychoactive Peyotes not currently accepted by our modern culture.
"Medicinal Peyotes"- Peyote with Medicinal, but not Psychoactive properties.
"False Peyotes"- Peyotes which only resemble Lophophora in appearce, but do not have Psychoactive or Medicinal properties.


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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: royer]
    #7865604 - 01/12/08 12:43 AM (15 years, 30 days ago)

Is that links for sources, or just links in general? If it's all links, that's a bit odd.

Interesting stuff. Any information about "white Peyote"? I forget the proper name, and all I really recall is that it had a higher mescaline content and is possibly extinct.


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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: EllisDSox]
    #7865675 - 01/12/08 01:06 AM (15 years, 30 days ago)

I have never heard about that...

If you have any more info, or you remember the botanical name, PLEASE let me know!


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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: FarFromHere]
    #7866722 - 01/12/08 05:38 AM (15 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

FarFromHere said:
I have never heard about that...




nor have I.
We should ask cactu.


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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: Knoa6]
    #7867145 - 01/12/08 07:26 AM (15 years, 30 days ago)

ask who?


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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: FarFromHere]
    #7867256 - 01/12/08 07:55 AM (15 years, 30 days ago)

me neither white peyote sound like maybe the extremly heary peyote and can look more white but that will only make a variant of a specie and may be the name some indian give to this type of peyote, people claim that the best stuff is the one from san luis potosi in the area there is clearly diferences in the poblation of peyotes is most notice in the type of grow ,like fror exaple the hayry conditions and the lack of it , and the diferent color of flowers , the most usual pinkish and then diferent tone of pink and with stripes of more redish color.
if it have a high level of mescaline i can only thing in a true peyote and not another species i mean a lophophora, and not for example ariocarpus and the peyote here is calll the blue deer for it color the way they only look white is for the hairs, humm , will have to check this,, but for real the hairy ones are more active in my experience..
all my best


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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: cactu]
    #7867318 - 01/12/08 08:17 AM (15 years, 30 days ago)

O that's you.


Epithlantha micromeris is sometimes called "dark skinned peyote" even tho it is sort of whiteish due to it's covering of spines...

Perhaps the skin under the spines is a dark shade...

Does anybody know?

I'd still like to hear more about this "white peyote".

Is it Lophophora?

or another species?


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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: FarFromHere]
    #7867364 - 01/12/08 08:36 AM (15 years, 30 days ago)

That is interesting because it is suggested San Luis Potosi is outside williamsii range and is where diffusa grows; diffusa is said to be lacking/only trace amounts of mescaline.  I take this with a grain of salt and would believe anyone with with personal experience over this information.  Thank you cactu for your perspective, it is always valued. :thumbup:

I heard about the "white peyote" a good while ago.  I want to say it was supposed to be a very small population of whitish peyote growing in the mountains of New Mexico that was awfully potent.  I don't know if there's any truth to it.  There's a good chance it's a complete myth and even if it was true, chances are it would probably be extinct by now.  If it ever existed, it was probably just a distinct phenotype of williamsii due to its isolation.

Teo, don't do with this what you did with blue peruvianus.  No offense buddy.  Thanks.


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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: plainswalker]
    #7868167 - 01/12/08 03:04 PM (15 years, 30 days ago)

This is a good thread dealing with subjects I have been interested in as well, Teo. I may bioassay a few Ariocarpus fissuratus leaves off my plant for the cause.

It's not too big and I don't want to kill it either.


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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: Knoa6]
    #7868398 - 01/12/08 06:05 PM (15 years, 30 days ago)

i don´t think is safe to thread the commond names as real i mean they can bary from place to place, from taxonomist , to taxonomist, can be use as a direcction, but not too specific, the name of white and high level of mescaline is wierd ..to found that level of mescaline out sIde a true lophophora ..will be lovely to see some albino in nature after all we have seem many in artificial conditions but those can NOT live to much in nature.. maybe a variegated plant that can look more whitish , also i gueSs the variegated are more active aren´t day i don´t know where i read that.
ALL MY BEST.


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Edited by cactu (01/12/08 06:31 PM)


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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: cactu]
    #7868509 - 01/12/08 06:47 PM (15 years, 30 days ago)

-plainswalker said:
That is interesting because it is suggested San Luis Potosi is outside williamsii range and is where diffusa grows; diffusa is said to be lacking/only trace amounts of mescaline. I take this with a grain of salt and would believe anyone with with personal experience over this information. Thank you cactu for your perspective, it is always valued.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
well the lophophora williansi range is from san luis potosi to Texas with him variations and different form , and of course differences in the poblation of san Luis postosi and from example the north end Texas can and are different a bit , even in chemical make up also if this was not enough chemical balances vary in peyote due to type of soil,genetic,state of grow (young and old), and if you add the morphological variation, and different species, well you have a plethora Of possibilities, but let stick to the studies,
san Luis potosi is the souther range of l. williansi , the only place where l. difussa grow is in the state of queretaro, in a small area in between the population of Vizarrón, Bucareli and
Tolimán .
Lophophora fricii grow in Laguna Viesca en el estado de Coahuila, México.
Lophophora fricii forma albiflora grow close to Viesca en el Estado de Coahuila,
Lophophora jourdaniana is not a natural specie but a man made hibrid
Lophophora koehresii grow in laguna Río Verde, San Francisco, Las Tablas to las Palomas in the state of San Luis Potosí.THIS MAY THE ONE I´M FINDIN IN THOSE LOCATION LOOK MY TREAD IN THE GROW LOGS HUNTING THE BLUE DEER WIRIKUTA EPISODE 1.
Lophophora williamsii GROWS IN THE STATE of San Luis Potosí, Zacatecas, Durango, Chihuahua,Coahuila, Tamaulipas, Nuevo Leon and in Texas (EUA).also several varietys in all the localities tipical localities Huizache en el Estado de San Luis Potosí, México.
Lophophora williamsii var. caespitosa grow in a new place La Perdida en el Estado de Tamaulipas, México.
Lophophora williamsii var. decipiens is a doub specie is very similar to fricii grow in El Amparo, en el Estado de Coahuila.
Lophophora williamsii var. texana well grow in jupiter.
good pictures here and infohttp://www.cronicascactuseras.com/CactusCenterClub/Especiesygeneros/DrGood/peyote_lophophora_williamsii_01.htm
until know i consider that in lophophora are only two genus
williansis and difusa all others are some varietys of williansii and few from diffussa , many cactus can have diferent color of flowers as many other species do ,many where create in artificial conditions, and of course isolation and diferent climate and vegetation and soil can chage morfological appearence but is like dogs all are the same specie but yet so diferent , that why the genetic code is so plastid that can interact with the enviroment to active other genes and change morphological appeareance and after many generation create a new species, so until ¡then¡ i consider other variabilitis and names valid just in case of identification fron especific area, especific morphological appearence. flower color,alcalods ,etc, other then that they have the same chemical make up of course with the natural imbalance i mention before, but will be genetically compatible why i said this easy because they can interbreed with each other and make hybrid, i guees you can not hibridize l. difussa and l. williansii , if not it had alredy been done .
http://server3.foros.net/viewtopic.php?p=3754&mforum=JardinMex

all my best vibrations to you all


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cuando una rafaga del pensamiento nos pasa  al lado se puede sentir  que valio  la pena  haber vivido, y cuando ese pensamiento se  convierte en sueño no paramos de soñar hasta realizarlo


Edited by cactu (01/12/08 07:38 PM)


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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: cactu]
    #7868963 - 01/12/08 09:50 PM (15 years, 29 days ago)

Doh. You're exactly right. I was mixing up San Luis Potosi and Queretaro in my head. Thank you for the correction.


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OfflineFarFromHere
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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: plainswalker]
    #7869340 - 01/12/08 11:55 PM (15 years, 29 days ago)

This thread is starting off nicely.

I'll post a bunch of stuff later.


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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: FarFromHere]
    #7880886 - 01/15/08 07:48 AM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Just got three "Peyotes" from S.S.-

Strombocactus disciformis

Epithelantha micromeris

Ariocarpus Fissuratus var. lloydii


I'll post pics soon!


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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: FarFromHere]
    #7880890 - 01/15/08 07:49 AM (15 years, 27 days ago)

:banbanban:


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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: TurntableJunky]
    #7880910 - 01/15/08 07:52 AM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Your starting drama.

I have not broken any rules in my last post.

You are off topic and attempting to start trouble.

Please stop.


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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: FarFromHere]
    #7880929 - 01/15/08 07:56 AM (15 years, 27 days ago)

You were permabanned by the law of the shroomery you should not be here.


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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: TurntableJunky]
    #7880942 - 01/15/08 07:59 AM (15 years, 27 days ago)

By law of the shroomery the mods allowed me back on.

I discussed it with them.

Are the mods not the law of the shroomery?

Have they not allowed me back here?

Why do you question their judgement?

Why do you attempt to start drama?

Please remove this bullshit from my "Peyotes" thread!


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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: FarFromHere]
    #7880953 - 01/15/08 08:01 AM (15 years, 27 days ago)

I am not attempting to start drama. I am attempting to get you re-banned for creating a puppet account.


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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: TurntableJunky]
    #7880968 - 01/15/08 08:04 AM (15 years, 27 days ago)

I am attempting to tell you that the mods allowed me to make this account...


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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: FarFromHere]
    #7880977 - 01/15/08 08:05 AM (15 years, 27 days ago)

No one mod went against shroomery policy and allowed you to create a puppet account.


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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: TurntableJunky]
    #7881016 - 01/15/08 08:11 AM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Dude I don't know who let me back on.

It was a mod.

I'll try to pull up my ticket...


God...I just want to talk about peyotes...


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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: FarFromHere]
    #7881027 - 01/15/08 08:12 AM (15 years, 27 days ago)

I dont care who it was. That mod went against the rules of the shroomery by letting you back in.


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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: TurntableJunky]
    #7881041 - 01/15/08 08:15 AM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Are you a mod?



I can't believe me thread is full of this bullshit now.


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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: FarFromHere]
    #7881045 - 01/15/08 08:15 AM (15 years, 27 days ago)

This was serious man...

I really wanted to talk and learn about peyotes.


This thread won't be shit now.


It will turn into a big pool of drama.


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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: FarFromHere]
    #7881050 - 01/15/08 08:16 AM (15 years, 27 days ago)

this thread is so off topic, might as well be locked.


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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: deformedreality]
    #7881060 - 01/15/08 08:18 AM (15 years, 27 days ago)

That's what I just said.


TurntableJunkey...


I'm asking you.

As one human to another.

Give me another chance.

I am not a bad person...


Have the plants we ingest not taught you forgiveness?



Shroomites! If I am banned please carry on the search for the "Lost Peyotes"!!!


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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: FarFromHere]
    #7881286 - 01/15/08 09:15 AM (15 years, 27 days ago)

what is everyones problem. This is the fucking internet. get over yourselves.


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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: deformedreality]
    #7881391 - 01/15/08 09:51 AM (15 years, 27 days ago)

I'm going to attempt to put this thread back on topic.



One issue I would like to address is the issue of preservation.

Some people ask me- "Why are the Entheogenic effects of these cacti so important to you? Why can't you enjoy them if they don't have psychoactive effects?"


The answer is preservation.

I can and do enjoy the company of my many "peyotes" but I do not ingest any of them.

That's what Trichocereus cacti are for...

If we could only prove that these "Lost Peyotes" were psychoactive people would take great interest in them.

For many "Lost Peyotes" survival in the wild is almost certain to end sometime in the future.

Some may be lost forever...at the very least genetic diversity would be lost, with only a few (possibly inactive) strains remaining in cultivation.

Yet if Lophophora went extinct in the wild, it would be perfectly intact, flourishing in human cultivation.

If we are able to prove that some of these "Lost Peyotes" hold within them powers to alter our states of mind we will ensure the survival a of the species...


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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: FarFromHere]
    #7881426 - 01/15/08 10:07 AM (15 years, 27 days ago)



As far as I know the "false" peyote listed aren't really false per say, although, wrong would be more fitting. Most of the ariocarpus sp were known as false for a reason. They were thought to cause insanity. You choose the wrong offering/plant you have to deal with it. But, this is kind of broad since peyote may mean "healing" in some dialect. etc...


Edited by Nomis (01/17/08 05:06 AM)


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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: TurntableJunky]
    #7881601 - 01/15/08 11:40 AM (15 years, 27 days ago)

He was allowed back by an admin. Got another chance. So plz, both of you, no flames.



ROYER SAYS:LIKE NAILM SAID ADMIN LET HIM IN NOT MODS!!


Edited by royer9864 (01/15/08 02:02 PM)


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OfflineFarFromHere
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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: Nalim]
    #7882518 - 01/15/08 07:22 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Thank you Nalim.

I wish now I hadn't responded to Turntable's flaming...

I am here to talk about cactuses, not fight with people...


Today I received three VERY small "Peyotes".


Strombocactus disciformis

Epithelantha micromeris

Ariocarpus Fissuratus var. lloydii



The Strombocactus was grown from seed in 1995, I think it's less than a inch wide...wow, these things are slow!


--------------------
"We are the one's we have been waiting for" -Hopi Proverb


Edited by FarFromHere (01/15/08 07:43 PM)


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InvisibleKnoa6
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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: FarFromHere]
    #7882980 - 01/15/08 08:40 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

post pictures of those beauties!


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OfflineFarFromHere
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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: Knoa6]
    #7883617 - 01/15/08 11:11 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Shit...my girlfriend just left with my camera...


Heres an Astrophytum asterias of mine...




--------------------
"We are the one's we have been waiting for" -Hopi Proverb


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InvisibleKnoa6
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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: FarFromHere]
    #7883768 - 01/15/08 11:46 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

FarFromHere said:
Thank you Nalim.
Today I received three VERY small "Peyotes".


Strombocactus disciformis

Epithelantha micromeris

Ariocarpus Fissuratus var. lloydii





pictures, or it didn't happen


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Offlineplainswalker
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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: Knoa6]
    #7884099 - 01/16/08 12:44 AM (15 years, 26 days ago)

That's a very nice asterias, looks happy. :thumbup:

I have heard A. asterias is self-sterile so you need two plants to produce any seeds.  Anyone know if this is true?  I am very interested if anyone knows whether various ariocarpus cacti (specifically fissuratus, retusus, and trigonus) are self-fertile or self-sterile so if anyone with experience or information could lend their knowledge it would be appreciated.

I saw a good number of Epithelantha micromeris in the mountains of Mexico on my last trip there, I think they are also common at many nurseries.  They like to grow from between cracks in rocks, cool little guys.


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OfflineFarFromHere
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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: plainswalker]
    #7884443 - 01/16/08 01:44 AM (15 years, 26 days ago)

My Astrophytum has flowered twice, but has never ever put out a seed pod.


--------------------
"We are the one's we have been waiting for" -Hopi Proverb


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InvisiblePoC
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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: Knoa6]
    #7886052 - 01/16/08 06:29 AM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Today I read "Peyote and Other Psychoactive Cacti" by Adam Gottlieb and it was like an expanded version of this thread. It was only about 85 pages or so but with a little wider spread of information. You should check it out for some more information to add to your thread.


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OfflineFarFromHere
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Re: "Peyotes and False Peyotes" and other psychoactive Cacti [Re: PoC]
    #7886073 - 01/16/08 06:32 AM (15 years, 26 days ago)

I own that book.

The info is outdated...

What you need is M.S.Smith's "NARCOTIC AND HALLUCINOGENIC CACTI OF THE NEW WORLD" and his "SACRAMENTAL AND MEDICINAL CACTI (Peyote, San Pedro and other Ethnopharmacological Cactaceae".

Now those are good books!


--------------------
"We are the one's we have been waiting for" -Hopi Proverb


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