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stuckinabeat
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Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 181
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
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Forgot to finish of jars with dry verm on top of brf mixture...already pc'd
#7857039 - 01/09/08 11:34 PM (16 years, 23 days ago) |
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hey everyone a friend forgot to put dry verm over the verm/brf/water mixture. I already pc'd them. Should he try without the dry verm on top or start over?
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r311ik
n00b


Registered: 01/24/06
Posts: 192
Loc: Mi
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
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Re: Forgot to finish of jars with dry verm on top of brf mixture...already pc'd [Re: stuckinabeat]
#7857048 - 01/09/08 11:35 PM (16 years, 23 days ago) |
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verm it and reboil
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r311ik
n00b


Registered: 01/24/06
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Re: Forgot to finish of jars with dry verm on top of brf mixture...already pc'd [Re: r311ik]
#7857054 - 01/09/08 11:36 PM (16 years, 23 days ago) |
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boil means pc
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stuckinabeat
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Registered: 06/11/06
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Re: Forgot to finish of jars with dry verm on top of brf mixture...already pc'd [Re: r311ik]
#7857347 - 01/10/08 12:36 AM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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wont it dry the cake up to re pc it?
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r311ik
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Registered: 01/24/06
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Re: Forgot to finish of jars with dry verm on top of brf mixture...already pc'd [Re: stuckinabeat]
#7857373 - 01/10/08 12:46 AM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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pc the verm, then transfer it in the glove box?
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deadatdusk
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Re: Forgot to finish of jars with dry verm on top of brf mixture...already pc'd *DELETED* [Re: r311ik]
#7857490 - 01/10/08 01:21 AM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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Post deleted by deadatduskReason for deletion: deleted
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c0_hush
Stranger



Registered: 07/16/06
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Re: Forgot to finish of jars with dry verm on top of brf mixture...already pc'd [Re: deadatdusk]
#7857554 - 01/10/08 01:47 AM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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Another vote for starting over. Better play it safe while you can, it's only a minor annoyance now, if you let it go and end up getting contams or something wrong in the near future, you will have wasted time AND your spores.
Redo everything and don't forget the dry verm layer as it's your biggest defense against contams after inoculation, make it at least 1/2 inch thick, thicker the better...
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fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: Forgot to finish of jars with dry verm on top of brf mixture...already pc'd [Re: c0_hush]
#7857683 - 01/10/08 03:28 AM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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These guys don't know jack. I for one never used a verm layer until much later when I tried it once as an experiment.
Despite the dogma here the verm layer is more or less worthless. The vast majority of contams start at injection sites or come from incomplete sterilization. Neither of which a verm layer will do jack-shit for.
The verm layer is a half-assed and questionable technique that simply wastes space and materials. The only time it could be of any benefit is in the case that you somehow fuckup and allow contams to fall down into your jars. This should never happen if you do things right.
The only chance for contamination of PF cakes is during the inoculation where you are stabbing a needle down into the substrate anyways.
Just do your jars as normal. Unless you are not doing your technique properly you'll see little, if any, difference in contamination rates.
The 5 out of 100 times where it would make a difference is more than made up for by increased substrate volume and reduced material expenditure.
-FF
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Nibin
Getting there



Registered: 11/29/05
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Re: Forgot to finish of jars with dry verm on top of brf mixture...already pc'd [Re: fastfred]
#7857696 - 01/10/08 03:56 AM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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Micropore over the injection holes will also help.
RR now grows jars exclusively with this system, no dry verm, only micropore before and then another strip ontop after inoculating to cover the needle hole.
While it should be added before sterilization, it can't hurt to put it on now.
-------------------- Newcomers guide-----> For all things shroomy
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Beebo
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Re: Forgot to finish of jars with dry verm on top of brf mixture...already pc'd [Re: Nibin]
#7857713 - 01/10/08 04:30 AM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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I use a still air box and tvyek covers over my lids, taped down. That should be enough.
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fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: Forgot to finish of jars with dry verm on top of brf mixture...already pc'd [Re: Nibin]
#7857748 - 01/10/08 05:04 AM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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I've been pushing people to ditch the verm layer for at least the last 6 years or so. Even the most inexperienced noobs will jump up to flame me on that issue.
I don't see much advantage to any sort of tapes or filters over the jars either. It's completely possible to take regular drinking glasses with no lids and simply cover them with foil. That's all the barrier that you need. There are a couple teks detailing it.
Tape and filters and all that bullshit are just extra hassle with no conceivable benefit.
I too was once in search of sealed systems and cultures, but I eventually learned that the only effect they can have is negative as they simply aren't required and serve no useful purpose.
Now for a noob that's going to pick up each jar every day and turn it all around looking to observe the growth it might be helpful to have some tape over the holes. But as long as you're willing to leave them upright and not shake them all around you have no need for any bullshit other than a foil lid.
This link shows how unnecessary lids and tape and filters and injection ports and all the other crazy bullshit people come up with are. http://www.fungifun.org/English/Pftek
 Yes, that's a regular drinking glass with just a layer of foil over the top!
And people have the nerve to argue with me that you should throw away the foil cover! Throw away all the other bullshit, that's my advice.
-FF
Edited by fastfred (01/10/08 05:10 AM)
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veda_sticks
Cultivator




Registered: 07/29/07
Posts: 14,191
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Re: Forgot to finish of jars with dry verm on top of brf mixture...already pc'd [Re: fastfred]
#7857769 - 01/10/08 05:33 AM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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RR has mentioned on a few occassions that u can simply leave the dry verm layer out to allow more substrate in your jars. It makes sense that you can simply just leave the tnfoil on the lids to stop contams entering the jar.
However i just like to be extra carefull and use some form of filter (i have quite a high spore count in my flat). Tyvek inplace of the dry verm is a good safeguard or even micropore tape.
I have wondered about taking the foil off aswell, mostly i have left it on with no noticable effect on colinisation.
I am not agreeing or disagreeing. I will have to try this with future grows. While this may work for you, it may not work for others.
This is kinda similar to when u dunk, its suggested to dunk in the fridge. No it doesnt stop contams but its just good practice.
-------------------- PF TEK - writeup by EvilMushroom666 Lets Grow Mushrooms - RogerRabbit & RoadKills website with sample videos plus the full PF TEK video series. Alot of great information - BUY THE DVD Cakes can and will pin! - So you think cakes suck for pins. Your wrong Franks Simple Coir/Verm Tek Franks Proper Pasturisation Tek Franks Spawning To Bulk - Monotub Professor Pinheads RTV Injection Port Tek Foo Mans No Soak WBS Prep Tek
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c0_hush
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Re: Forgot to finish of jars with dry verm on top of brf mixture...already pc'd [Re: fastfred]
#7857770 - 01/10/08 05:34 AM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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Maybe the environment where you keep your jars have less contams, thus no need for the extra protection, how does the foil over the glass allow for gas exchange or that's a bullshit notion too?
As for me, I don't personally see what the big deal is with putting dry layer of verm, you make it sound like you waste so much time and "material expenditure" when in reality, both are negligible.
Also, your style seems mean spirited, maybe you wouldn't have had to spend 6 years trying to convert "noobs" if you were a little less wired? Just an observation...
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DontPlay
Yeah Science!



Registered: 12/13/07
Posts: 750
Loc: On Land most of the time....
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Re: Forgot to finish of jars with dry verm on top of brf mixture...already pc'd [Re: c0_hush]
#7857789 - 01/10/08 05:48 AM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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Yeah all you had to do was keep the tin foil on, I do not use a vermiculite barrier, and I don't have problems with contams.
-------------------- My Trade List I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me. Hunter S. Thompson
I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery. ~Thomas Jefferson
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fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: Forgot to finish of jars with dry verm on top of brf mixture...already pc'd [Re: c0_hush]
#7857880 - 01/10/08 07:01 AM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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> While this may work for you, it may not work for others.
This is in fact standard practice in laboratories. It works for everyone because the laws of physics are constant throughout the known universe.
Quote:
c0_hush said: Maybe the environment where you keep your jars have less contams, thus no need for the extra protection, how does the foil over the glass allow for gas exchange or that's a bullshit notion too?
The concentration of contaminants in the environment does not change the laws of physics.
As far as gas exchange, foil does not form an airtight seal so CO2 freely diffuses out and O2 freely diffuses in.
Quote:
As for me, I don't personally see what the big deal is with putting dry layer of verm, you make it sound like you waste so much time and "material expenditure" when in reality, both are negligible
Depending on the thickness of your verm layer you are wasting a significant amount of substrate space. If you use a 1/2 inch verm layer you've wasted 6 inches over a dozen jars. That's 3 jars of wasted space per dozen, or 25% waste. And that's not even counting the wasted time and materials.
Quote:
Also, your style seems mean spirited, maybe you wouldn't have had to spend 6 years trying to convert "noobs" if you were a little less wired?
I don't have any interest in "converting noobs". I present the facts and people choose to use or disregard them. That's what science is: A sequence of facts and experimental results that lead to an inescapable conclusion. Anyone who cares to research the facts or consider things in any depth will see the light, others are free to bury their heads in the sand. I don't waste time trying to convert people. I clue them in to certain facts and principles, if they decide to investigate them they will come to their own realizations and obtain what benefits that they can for their specific goals.
To explain the utility of the foil cap you must first understand that contams fall downward. You do not need an airtight seal and you don't need a filter. What you must do is make sure that there is no path whereby contams can fall downward into your culture.
The theory and proof of this method dates back to Louis Pasteur. In the 1850's Pasteur designed an experiment to prove that germs do not magically arise from nothing. Having proved that germs do not spontaneously arise in sealed cultures he needed to prove that air alone was not responsible for generating germs. Pasteur devised a long swan-necked flask. Air could reach the flask through the opening but dust particles and microorganisms could not, because the curved neck served as a trap.
In doing so he proved that contams fall downward, that they cannot navigate a curve, and that they don't simply diffuse throughout the air.
So what I'm telling you is not new. It's been known since the 1850's. Since then scientists have known that you don't need an airtight culture and you don't need filters, you simply have to prevent contams from falling into your cultures. Anytime you provide an uphill curve contams can't navigate it and your culture remains sterile. This prevents microorganisms in the air from entering the cultures, yet allows air to flow freely.

There are swan-necked flasks over 100 years old that remain uncontaminated to this day.
Airlock vs. Aluminum Foil on a Starter Flask http://resipsaloquitur.auburnbrewclub.org/2007/07/06/airlock-vs-aluminum-foil-on-a-starter-flask/
Quote:
Sanitized aluminum foil adequately covering the opening of a flask will allow oxygen into the flask, but will keep particles carrying contaminants out.
Quote:
The experimental design that clinched the argument was the use of the swan-neck flask. In this experiment, fermentable juice was placed in a flask and after sterilization the neck was heated and drawn out as a thin tube taking a gentle downward then upward arc -- resembling the neck of a swan (Fig 4). The end of neck was then sealed. As long as it was sealed, the contents remained unchanged. If the flask was opened by nipping off the end of the neck, air entered but dust was trapped on the walls of the neck. Under this condition, the fluid would remain forever sterile, showing that air alone could not trigger growth of microorganisms.
-FF
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shaggydogman
Stranger


Registered: 04/20/07
Posts: 672
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Re: Forgot to finish of jars with dry verm on top of brf mixture...already pc'd [Re: fastfred]
#7857956 - 01/10/08 07:29 AM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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FastFred
I'm convinced enough to try it. 
I use PF Tek for simple minds you linked to. I always found the dry verm a bit of an annoyance. I went with it as it is in all the teks and is pretty standard practice/advice.
I'm gonna go without the verm for half my next batch. My only point/question/worry which hopefully you'll be kind enough to offer your opinion on is...
I have heard people mention that temperature swings during incubation can result in air pressure changes in the jar, which can then result in air moving in and out of the jars. I have to grow in an attic so even though they are in a tit they still face temperature swings. What are your thoughts on contams entering the jars via temperature lead air pressure change inside jars?
-------------------- Rye -- WBS | Grain LC -- G2G | Bulk -- Monotub | 50/50 -- Late Casing -- A Pinning Strategy Disclaimer: My opinion is subject to change at short notice subject to but not limited by new information and knowledge being made available.
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RoYaL_fLuSh
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Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 499
Loc: UK
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Re: Forgot to finish of jars with dry verm on top of brf mixture...already pc'd [Re: shaggydogman]
#7857992 - 01/10/08 07:39 AM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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fastfred : Now for a noob that's going to pick up each jar every day and turn it all around looking to observe the growth it might be helpful to have some tape over the holes. But as long as you're willing to leave them upright and not shake them all around you have no need for any bullshit other than a foil lid. ..................................................................
lmfao how presumptious and stereotyping ! * goes for another jar * hehehe
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fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
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Re: Forgot to finish of jars with dry verm on top of brf mixture...already pc'd [Re: shaggydogman]
#7858028 - 01/10/08 07:53 AM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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Temp swings can sometimes be an issue. Your biggest temp swing is cooling down from sterilization. That's why it's best to let them cool down inside the PC, that way they are cooled while still in the sterile PC.
Otherwise it shouldn't be a problem. Temp swings would have to be pretty dramatic to suck a contam all the way up the tinfoil edge, around the corner, and then down into the holes. If you aren't using lids then it might be a bit more likely. In that case I would use a rubber band or something of the sort to seal the aluminum a little tighter. This isn't to seal the jar, but the smaller the air passageway the quicker a contam will land on or stick to a surface, thus removing it from the air.
With a jar any airflow is distributed over the rather large area of the entire rim rather than through a smaller swan neck. Some of Pasteur's swan neck cultures are uncontaminated over 100 years later so it's doubtful that normal temp swings are enough to suck contams in.
I always used foil lids without filters or tape over holes and I had almost 0% contamination. I never really had a chance to compare methods because without any significant contamination neither could show any benefit over the other. I'm in a climate with moderate spore loads, so I assume my experience will be typical. I've also had a good deal of training in sterile technique though.
-FF
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shaggydogman
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Registered: 04/20/07
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Re: Forgot to finish of jars with dry verm on top of brf mixture...already pc'd [Re: fastfred]
#7858071 - 01/10/08 08:07 AM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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That all makes perfect sense. I can only now try and see what works in my situation.
After I posted I was thinking that the temp change is pretty much confined inside the Tit so the Tit temp and the jar temps would be pretty similar anyway. The main movement of air would be in and out of the Tit, which is semi filtered by a blanket.
Next batch i'll do 12 glasses:
- 4 as normal with verm, foil as normal - 4 without verm, foil as normal - 4 without verm, with rubber band
Thanks FastFred, much appreciated... 
edit: Just thought. I could just put the lid on the TiT and do 4 monotub style holes covered both sides with Tyvec and do a squirt of oust everytime I close it. Contam freeish Tit!!
-------------------- Rye -- WBS | Grain LC -- G2G | Bulk -- Monotub | 50/50 -- Late Casing -- A Pinning Strategy Disclaimer: My opinion is subject to change at short notice subject to but not limited by new information and knowledge being made available.
Edited by shaggydogman (01/10/08 08:15 AM)
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shaggydogman
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Registered: 04/20/07
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Re: Forgot to finish of jars with dry verm on top of brf mixture...already pc'd [Re: shaggydogman]
#7963399 - 02/01/08 04:35 AM (16 years, 19 hours ago) |
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UPDATE: I got more confident in the idea and ended up doing 10 without verm, no rubber bands and 2 with a dry verm barrier.
100% success, no contams.... 12/12 colonized jars...
I took a look at them about once a week, probably a bit more when they were nearly done. I was real careful with them though.
So that's another simplification to my routine + more cake, yummmmm. Thanks again fastfred...
-------------------- Rye -- WBS | Grain LC -- G2G | Bulk -- Monotub | 50/50 -- Late Casing -- A Pinning Strategy Disclaimer: My opinion is subject to change at short notice subject to but not limited by new information and knowledge being made available.
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