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kyleda1kid
Student (here tolearn)
Registered: 03/27/07
Posts: 276
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
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pf tek success rate?
#7856862 - 01/09/08 11:10 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Using pf tek method with 1/2 pint brf jars pressure cooked 45-60 min. cooled overnight. Of course follow 2:1:1 ratio (verm:brf:water) then inoculated with spores from ralphsters using a glovebox. I am only getting a success rate of about 60-70%; 6-7 out of 10 jars are good. Others get some sort of contaminate. I spray Lysol 20-30 min before. I use hand sanitizer, sterilize needle of syringe every 2-3 jars with lighter, and still something is wrong. Am I missing something, I know they all can't always work but 60% success rate? Is that normal? By the way pressure cooker is only a 6 qt. holds exactly 8 jars. Don't know if that matters.
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KillerPicklez
Registered: 12/13/07
Posts: 16,920
Loc:
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Re: pf tek success rate? [Re: kyleda1kid]
#7856997 - 01/09/08 11:28 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
kyleda1kid said: Using pf tek method with 1/2 pint brf jars pressure cooked 45-60 min. cooled overnight. Of course follow 2:1:1 ratio (verm:brf:water) then inoculated with spores from ralphsters using a glovebox. I am only getting a success rate of about 60-70%; 6-7 out of 10 jars are good. Others get some sort of contaminate. I spray Lysol 20-30 min before. I use hand sanitizer, sterilize needle of syringe every 2-3 jars with lighter, and still something is wrong. Am I missing something, I know they all can't always work but 60% success rate? Is that normal? By the way pressure cooker is only a 6 qt. holds exactly 8 jars. Don't know if that matters.
how many times have you got this success rate? I know my first 1-2 times, my success rate was at like 40%, then 60%, then finally I figured my shit out and got consistently over 75% success.
my errors seemed to be at the inoculation point. I learned that it is best to just re-sterilize the needle after each jar. takes a couple minutes extra, but seemed to be worth it.
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THEBats
FuturePsychopharmacologist
Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 1,268
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
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So far I have had 100% success and I used only steam sterilization. Out of 6 grows that can't be too bad.
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kyleda1kid
Student (here tolearn)
Registered: 03/27/07
Posts: 276
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Only 3-4 times at most. I'll try re-sterilize after each jar. Thanks, any other suggestions?
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KillerPicklez
Registered: 12/13/07
Posts: 16,920
Loc:
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Re: pf tek success rate? [Re: kyleda1kid]
#7857025 - 01/09/08 11:32 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
kyleda1kid said: Only 3-4 times at most. I'll try re-sterilize after each jar. Thanks, any other suggestions?
Hm. Are you sterilizing the jars after each grow? And where do you store the jars during colonization?
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kyleda1kid
Student (here tolearn)
Registered: 03/27/07
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Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
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Of course I re-sterilize jars, wash with bleach water then wash with soap and water. I keep jars in a rubbermaid container with lids slighltly open. They are kept in a dark place 72-80 degrees. There is also holes in the rubbermaid container to help with gas exchange.
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kyleda1kid
Student (here tolearn)
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Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
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Re: pf tek success rate? [Re: kyleda1kid]
#7857066 - 01/09/08 11:38 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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i meant re-sterilize the needle not jar other post
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KillerPicklez
Registered: 12/13/07
Posts: 16,920
Loc:
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Re: pf tek success rate? [Re: kyleda1kid]
#7857159 - 01/09/08 11:52 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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sounds like you do everything perfectly, i can see no holes in your procedure whatsoever.
dont know what advice to give you. they are getting contaminated during colonization right? not in the fruiting chamber.
are you using distilled water in your substrate preparation?
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c0_hush
Stranger
Registered: 07/16/06
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Couple of suggestions and a question.. In my experience, having the jars wait longer than you should in the PC increases the chance of contams IMO... I always inoculate 5 hours after I'm done PC'ing. Also, how thick is your dry verm layer? Make it at least 1/2 inch thick cuz it's your only defense against contams after inoculation. How much water are you using the the PC? Too much water will get in your jars and mess up the dry verm layer and/or the water ratio and could lead to contams.. Flame the needle after each jar just to be on the safe side and PC for AT LEAST 60 mins, if you're getting contams, do it for 75, to play it safe and rule out stuff.
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atomicblue
Stranger
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Re: pf tek success rate? [Re: c0_hush]
#7857577 - 01/10/08 01:54 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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100% for me too. First did nine jars now another 10. All are fine...
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fastfred
Old Hand
Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: pf tek success rate? [Re: atomicblue]
#7857686 - 01/10/08 03:34 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Detail your contaminations. Locate where they are coming from.
After a couple runs you should be a lot smoother and quicker in your innoc technique. You should be getting +90%. 98-99% is not hard to obtain in most cases.
-FF
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Nibin
Getting there
Registered: 11/29/05
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Re: pf tek success rate? [Re: fastfred]
#7857693 - 01/10/08 03:53 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I have made over 100 pf cakes all steamed, not pc'd and not one contaminated. Something is wrong.
Was the syringe made by you from a print by ralphsters od did you buy the syringe directly?
I suggest you cover your hair and mouth when innoculating, or even better, use a still air box or glovebox.
Also, check if your dry verm layer is getting wet during the sterilization as that would render it useless.
-------------------- Newcomers guide-----> For all things shroomy
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fastfred
Old Hand
Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: pf tek success rate? [Re: Nibin]
#7857738 - 01/10/08 04:51 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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> check if your dry verm layer is getting wet during the sterilization as that would render it useless.
Something has to be useful in the first place before it can be rendered useless.
It's not really possible to heat a moist substrate well above boiling and not have a dry, water-absorbent layer directly above it become moist.
We need more details in order to locate the source of your failure. Where did the contamination occur? At innoc sites?
-FF
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veda_sticks
Cultivator
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Re: pf tek success rate? [Re: fastfred]
#7857778 - 01/10/08 05:42 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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At first i had a poor success rate, 3/4 jars contaminated. But since moving to a glovebox. 100%.
Dry verm layer, thats a good point. It must be dry.
I noticed you say sterilised for 45-60 minutes.
I will maybe suggest pressure cooking a little longer. 60 minutes min. I always give mine an extra 15 minutes just to be sure. The pressure cooker shouldnt be a problem, i use a small 1 that holds 4 1/2 pints (8 if stacked)
You should flame the needle between each jar to prevent cross contamination. So flame before you inoc each jar.
If they are properly sterilised then infection can be happening during inoculation.
-------------------- PF TEK - writeup by EvilMushroom666 Lets Grow Mushrooms - RogerRabbit & RoadKills website with sample videos plus the full PF TEK video series. Alot of great information - BUY THE DVD Cakes can and will pin! - So you think cakes suck for pins. Your wrong Franks Simple Coir/Verm Tek Franks Proper Pasturisation Tek Franks Spawning To Bulk - Monotub Professor Pinheads RTV Injection Port Tek Foo Mans No Soak WBS Prep Tek
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DontPlay
Yeah Science!
Registered: 12/13/07
Posts: 750
Loc: On Land most of the time....
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Re: pf tek success rate? [Re: veda_sticks]
#7857785 - 01/10/08 05:47 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Make sure you are cooking them for at least 60 min not 45...Second are you sterilizing the needle between each jar, you should even in a glovebox small things will make all the difference. My first dozen jars I made had only 1 contam...And I know it was my fault because I was messing with the foil, and I had no dry vermiculite barrier.
-------------------- My Trade List I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me. Hunter S. Thompson I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery. ~Thomas Jefferson
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c0_hush
Stranger
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Re: pf tek success rate? [Re: veda_sticks]
#7857787 - 01/10/08 05:48 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I pretty much just make sure to do a full 60 min PC as stated above and flame the needle after inoculating each jar, all in open air. I ditched my glove box completely and don't miss it.
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fastfred
Old Hand
Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: pf tek success rate? [Re: DontPlay]
#7857917 - 01/10/08 07:16 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
DontPlay said: Make sure you are cooking them for at least 60 min not 45...
20 minutes is the standard sterilization time for PF jars, and that's at 12 psi. Sterilizing for 30 min at 15 psi provides a more than adequate safety margin. Sterilizing for 45 min is acceptable, but any longer is badly overcooking your substrate. You are simply breaking down nutrients, caramelizing sugars, and wasting time/energy.
The above applies to elevations below 2000 feet. For higher elevations calculate your temp at 15 psi, then double your sterilization time for every 10C difference.
-FF
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Blutjager
Inhuman
Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 9,220
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Re: pf tek success rate? [Re: veda_sticks]
#7858128 - 01/10/08 08:28 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
veda_sticks said: At first i had a poor success rate, 3/4 jars contaminated. But since moving to a glovebox. 100%.
Dry verm layer, thats a good point. It must be dry.
I noticed you say sterilised for 45-60 minutes.
I will maybe suggest pressure cooking a little longer. 60 minutes min. I always give mine an extra 15 minutes just to be sure. The pressure cooker shouldnt be a problem, i use a small 1 that holds 4 1/2 pints (8 if stacked)
You should flame the needle between each jar to prevent cross contamination. So flame before you inoc each jar.
If they are properly sterilised then infection can be happening during inoculation.
Same here everything I grew was green until I started inoculation in still air,now I hardly get contamination at all
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galadar
Registered: 05/09/07
Posts: 981
Loc: in a monotub!
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Re: pf tek success rate? [Re: Blutjager]
#7858198 - 01/10/08 08:45 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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tips to stay good for the pf tek. -wipe lip of your jars. a good 1/2-3/4 inch -have some micropore tape over holes, just so you create the smallest possible hole with the needle. -flame between every jar and stick it straight in the jar while red hot. -use a gloveox -make a 10:1 bleach and water spray and youll be good. spray this shit everywhere. the air, the surfaces, alot inside your glovebox lol. i wear something over my mouth and nose so i dont inhale like a dumbass and burn my throat. works better than any lysol and has no smells. well a little. i like 9:1 better.
and dont know if this helps, but i micropore tape again after inoculation. and then whel my cakes are 50% colonized( a bit stronger) i take off all tape.
100% rate here about 30 pf jars in grains is another success story =]
Edited by galadar (01/10/08 08:57 AM)
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Grylls
Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 394
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Re: pf tek success rate? [Re: galadar]
#7858232 - 01/10/08 08:54 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I don't have the luxury of a glovebox, so I wipe everything with alcohol: my hands, jars, syringe, alcohol bottle, counter top and the lighter. I use latex gloves and wipe them down too before each jar. I flame the needle for each jar and cover the hole with a cosmetic cotton pad moistened with alcohol right before insertion. I replace pad and get a band aid ready to stick over the hole. I then put the jars into a semi-sterile environment for incubation.
So far, my first 5 jars have been 100% free of contaminants. I just knocked up 5 more. Let's see how they go.
-------------------- Alone in the clouds all blue. Lying on an eiderdown. You can't see me, but I can you.
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galadar
Registered: 05/09/07
Posts: 981
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Re: pf tek success rate? [Re: Grylls]
#7858246 - 01/10/08 08:59 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Grylls said: I don't have the luxury of a glovebox, so I wipe everything with alcohol: my hands, jars, syringe, alcohol bottle, counter top and the lighter. I use latex gloves and wipe them down too before each jar. I flame the needle for each jar and cover the hole with a cosmetic cotton pad moistened with alcohol right before insertion. I replace pad and get a band aid ready to stick over the hole. I then put the jars into a semi-sterile environment for incubation.
So far, my first 5 jars have been 100% free of contaminants. I just knocked up 5 more. Let's see how they go.
im no fan of flaming and then holding in cotton. you can just drop that and be more speedy and efficient by sticking a glowing needle straight into the jar and injecting right away. the substrate and the first drop will cool the needle. dont worry. inoculations all about being speedy and effective. and please make a glovebox. its a gift of god.
Edited by galadar (01/10/08 09:00 AM)
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kupa trooper
Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 750
Loc: Earth
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Re: pf tek success rate? [Re: galadar]
#7858336 - 01/10/08 09:31 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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a still air box is what i use very inexpensive to make and works great. i have only one grow under my belt with 12 PF jars and no contams. so my suggestion is get a still air box at least good luck man
-------------------- I don't know but I've been told. It's hard to run with the weight of gold On the other hand I heard it said. It's just as hard with the weight of lead.
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kyleda1kid
Student (here tolearn)
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Posts: 276
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Re: pf tek success rate? [Re: Grylls]
#7858352 - 01/10/08 09:37 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Thanks for all the input. Okay yes the jars get contaminated after inoculation, They start of fine nice patches of white at innoc. sites then they turn bad. (not all of them just a few go bad.) When a jar does go bad it looks like the contam area is alot wetter and darker then contams hit. I get cobweb to green spots and also golden spots that turn yellow. It does seem like the top layer of dry verm gets wet. Which i put a 1/4-1/2 inch at most of dry verm for a 1/2 pint jar. I put masking tape over holes and foil over jars before i put them in the PC though. I get a direct syringe from ralphsters no prints. I also use a glove box to inoculate in. I only use about a half inch of water in the pressure cooker. enough to cover the bottom 4 jars about 1/4-1/2 way. other 4 jars are stacked on bottom 4.
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galadar
Registered: 05/09/07
Posts: 981
Loc: in a monotub!
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Re: pf tek success rate? [Re: kyleda1kid]
#7858363 - 01/10/08 09:43 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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bleach water man. spray that shit everywhere. into your glovebox all over your work and everything. it wont bleach any carpet or clothes but i love over doing bleach water since its so cheap to make. oh and add 3/4th inch dry verm and yes it gets wet for a bit then doesnt get wet after that.
Edited by galadar (01/11/08 12:14 AM)
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Fraggin
Multi-Faceted
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Re: pf tek success rate? [Re: galadar]
#7858368 - 01/10/08 09:44 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
galadar said: tips to stay good for the pf tek. -wipe lip of your jars. a good 1/2-3/4 inch -have some micropore tape over holes, just so you create the smallest possible hole with the needle. -use a gloveox -make a 10:1 bleach and water spray and youll be good. spray this shit everywhere. the air, the surfaces, alot inside your glovebox lol. i wear something over my mouth and nose so i dont inhale like a dumbass and burn my throat. works better than any lysol and has no smells. well a little. i like 9:1 better.
and dont know if this helps, but i micropore tape again after inoculation. and then whel my cakes are 50% colonized( a bit stronger) i take off all tape.
100% rate here about 30 pf jars in grains is another success story =]
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shaggydogman
Stranger
Registered: 04/20/07
Posts: 672
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Re: pf tek success rate? [Re: Fraggin]
#7858472 - 01/10/08 10:12 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Blutjager put me onto the quickest still air box in history. http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7010843#Post7010843
I do that with a plastic tub (quite big) and it works a treat. Just flip over a tub and hang it of of the edge of a table. Genius
edit: sorry just re read that you use a glovebox. Please ignore me!!!
-------------------- Rye -- WBS | Grain LC -- G2G | Bulk -- Monotub | 50/50 -- Late Casing -- A Pinning Strategy Disclaimer: My opinion is subject to change at short notice subject to but not limited by new information and knowledge being made available.
Edited by shaggydogman (01/10/08 10:16 AM)
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fastfred
Old Hand
Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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I'd say that you might have a really high spore load in your area. When you flame the needle it can suck contams back into it as it cools. Try to get a little faster and smoother with your sterile technique.
You also don't want to be taping the holes of the jars. If they get sealed airtight they will suck in a bunch of contammed air when you pop the tape. Also make sure that you keep your jars off the bottom of the PC. That will help with water content.
-FF
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Blutjager
Inhuman
Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 9,220
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Quote:
shaggydogman said: Blutjager put me onto the quickest still air box in history. http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7010843#Post7010843
I do that with a plastic tub (quite big) and it works a treat. Just flip over a tub and hang it of of the edge of a table. Genius
edit: sorry just re read that you use a glovebox. Please ignore me!!!
Ha ha,I was just going to post that
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P.Menace
Contradicting the Status Quo
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Re: pf tek success rate? [Re: Blutjager]
#7864962 - 01/11/08 01:02 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I PC 90 min @ 15 psi. No exceptions on time, I use a positive flow glove box with small hepa filter, flame needles, use lysol, dry verm layer, hand sanitizer and all of the sterile procedure, first grow 90% 2 of 24 contamed, now since 2 grows later, made 181 and I have had 100% success on the last grow and so far this LARGE one too
-------------------- http://www.sporeworksgallery.com/Cubensae/Psilocybe_cubensis_Menace roby000 said: thats true a shotgun is almost like a college degree in a sense that if you show it to the right person at the right time you could make a lot of money.
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galadar
Registered: 05/09/07
Posts: 981
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Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
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Re: pf tek success rate? [Re: P.Menace]
#7865018 - 01/11/08 01:20 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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micropore tape does not create a vaccuum. and also, if you inject while glowing, there will be no contams to suck in when it cools
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fastfred
Old Hand
Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: pf tek success rate? [Re: galadar]
#7868399 - 01/12/08 09:06 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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He said masking tape, not micropore tape.
> I put masking tape over holes and foil over jars before i put them in the PC
> if you inject while glowing, there will be no contams to suck in when it cools
That was kind of my point. I should have been a little more clear on that I guess.
-FF
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Revival
Stranger
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Re: pf tek success rate? [Re: fastfred]
#9147476 - 10/28/08 10:40 AM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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i know this is dead but there was never a reply of 100% success by this guy and no one mentioned the technique i always use that is cheap and easy as hell:
I PC at 12-15psi for 45-50 mins no exceptions and let the jars cool down until i can touch them without killing my hands, take them out and twist down tite the rings on the lids (which have four holes with electrical tape on them) this creates a nice little vacuum in some of them (not always it depends on how hot the jars are etc.. but you gotta get to them and tighten them down before they are cold)
i then let them sit out in a room over night. the next day i preheat my (clean) oven to the lowest temperature it can go to. (mine is 170F) and as its heating i bomb my kitchen with Lysol air spray i come back after its done heating in clean clothes with a shirt tied over my mouth and nose, a heat sterilized needle on the syringe with 90% Iso'd paper towel holding the needle. I Open my oven and put the jars on a rack (its really not very hot to the touch) that is barely pulled out of the oven (im practically reaching into the oven though you could really do it on the door. sometimes i do and pretty much the same success rate which is 90+%) and peel back each piece of electrical tape one at a time and immediately insert the needle, inoc. pullout immediately wrapping it again in the paper towel (that has iso on it) and pushing the tape back down right as soon as the needle is clear of the hole.
^^do that and its actually very very hard to fail. I remember the guy that told me this (several years back on here) he told me he did experiments/bets with his friends on how long he could keep an OPEN jar without getting contams. Ive done the same a few times and its very hard to fuck it up.
In home flow hood FTW
my 2ยข
_Rev
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veda_sticks
Cultivator
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Re: pf tek success rate? [Re: Revival]
#9147514 - 10/28/08 10:47 AM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Make sure your jars are out of the water, its the steam that sterilises the substrate.
Ignore any advice on bleach bombing everything. Its unessesary, simply clean your glovebox with soapy water. You can spray the walls damp, any contaminants will fall to the bottom, the wet surfaces will help keep them there.
-------------------- PF TEK - writeup by EvilMushroom666 Lets Grow Mushrooms - RogerRabbit & RoadKills website with sample videos plus the full PF TEK video series. Alot of great information - BUY THE DVD Cakes can and will pin! - So you think cakes suck for pins. Your wrong Franks Simple Coir/Verm Tek Franks Proper Pasturisation Tek Franks Spawning To Bulk - Monotub Professor Pinheads RTV Injection Port Tek Foo Mans No Soak WBS Prep Tek
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure
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Re: pf tek success rate? [Re: Revival]
#9147593 - 10/28/08 11:06 AM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
the next day i preheat my (clean) oven to the lowest temperature it can go to. (mine is 170F)
The oven tek has for many years been proved to be totally bunk. If you succeeded, it was in spite of what you did, not because of it.
NEVER use that silly oven tek. It increases the chances of contamination by many fold due to turbulence and the low pressure area created by the heat. Use a still air box for second best results, or a laminar flow hood for best results. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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