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Workman
1999 Spore War Veteran



Registered: 03/01/01
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ATL#7 is not Psilocybe atlantis
#7854539 - 01/09/08 04:04 PM (16 years, 23 days ago) |
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I have put together this graphic comparing the microscopy of samples with published descriptions and drawings.

It appears that the unidentified 2001 collection by Lizard King thought to possibly be Psilocybe mammilata (search forums) is actually Psilocybe atlantis with good agreement with the published description.
On the other hand, a collection from the same general area by a different person and thought to be Psilocybe atlantis is something different. This wasn't a complete surprise since early samples were sent to Guzman for confirmation and he stated that they were not P. atlantis. It has just taken me a long time to get the skills and equipment to see for myself.
The closest match with published descriptions is with the Mexican species, Psilocybe galindoi (aka P. galindii). The spores are the right size and the cheilocystidia and pleurocystidia are about the right size and shape. The necks of ATL#7's cheilocystidia are longer but within expected variability. It is not an exact match but at this time I am comfortable with considering it a Georgia variant of Psilocybe galindoi.
This now calls into question all versions of "Psilocybe atlantis" in distribution as spores, kits and fresh sclerotia since they all originated from the same collection that produced the ATL#7 strain.
It is unknown if authentic P. atlantis produces sclerotia in culture but I hope to find out soon.
-------------------- Research funded by the patrons of The Spore Works Exotic Spore Supply My Instagram Reinvesting 25% of Sales Towards Basic Research and Species Identification 
Edited by Workman (01/09/08 04:17 PM)
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cactu
culture and magic


Registered: 03/06/06
Posts: 3,913
Loc: mexicoelcentrodelconocimi...
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Re: ATL#7 is not Psilocybe atlantis [Re: Workman]
#7855037 - 01/09/08 05:48 PM (16 years, 23 days ago) |
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excellent information , workman as you know the first time psilocybe galindii was found was in jalisco in 3 locations close to la mansanilla , mazamitla and tamazula . this mushrooms is supost to be identical as ps mexicana in macroscopic appearence , but the difference is the long pseudorriza they have , i guees i have pictures of ps mexicana , with that long stem ,buried, not as pseudorriza , i have benn looking for this mushrooms for year the last time it was seeing here was in 86 i i don´t bad remenber long time a go then it was found in veracruz and the state of mexico i believe, mexico share many psilocybe with the easth parth of usa and canada. psilocybe mammilata,ps. caribea, ps. caerulences , weilli looks suspicius in the caerulences group, all the cubes and copes , what is really weird is that no mexicana grow in usa , now you mention galindii, and is the first in the mexicana section , what other mushrooms we share with that part caerulipides , and many more still not find, is really interest in mexico there is no ps semilanceata, even in some part may be a good place for then to grow , gaston guzman when update the genus will be more commond thing there are some new finds of veracruz that can resemble atlantis. also the hystori of tampanensis come some how to sound for me with this atlantis , what happend with tampanensis , still not around or it was the randoom mutation the nature provide ,and esteven pollock found right in the transitions, thank you for this information , open a new door of posibilities. all my best vibration and happy new year.
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  cuando una rafaga del pensamiento nos pasa al lado se puede sentir que valio la pena haber vivido, y cuando ese pensamiento se convierte en sueño no paramos de soñar hasta realizarlo
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GGreatOne234
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 8,946
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Re: ATL#7 is not Psilocybe atlantis [Re: Workman]
#7855117 - 01/09/08 06:04 PM (16 years, 23 days ago) |
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Workman,
Every time you make a new comparison chart or "microscopic composite" they seem to get better and better each time
Mind me asking but what programs do you use to put those together? And where did you get the illustrations of spores and cheilocystidia and the such from?
Quote:
It appears that the unidentified 2001 collection by Lizard King thought to possibly be Psilocybe mammilata
:chuckles: i doubted him discovering P. mammillata* (?) long ago because i became so discouraged from looking for it in florida that i honestly believe that that mushroom no longer even grows on our planet anymore or at least in southern and central florida. neither does Ps. caerulescens :shakes head: it does not grow down there. not a chance in h*ll. i looked everywhere every month of the year for 8-9 years for those two mushrooms in hundreds of locations and had no such luck with it. And every year i would go to highlands hammock state park where the mammi's were originally discovered during the same time of year as the discovery and nothing
LK was finding several interesting species back then and invited me back to his area to have a look but i could not find the time.. what a great mushroom hunter though. are you still in contact with him?
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Workman
1999 Spore War Veteran



Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 3,598
Loc: Oregon, USA
Last seen: 6 hours, 48 minutes
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Re: ATL#7 is not Psilocybe atlantis [Re: GGreatOne234]
#7855197 - 01/09/08 06:15 PM (16 years, 23 days ago) |
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Thanks, I have noticed an improvement myself. A little tweaking of the scope camera has increased the depth of field a bit and I am getting better at sectioning the gills.
I use Photoshop elements to cut out and paste the images.
The P. atlantis description is here. http://www.mycotaxon.com/vol/abstracts/86/86-179.html
And the P. galindii drawings are from Guzmans "The Genus Psilocybe".
-------------------- Research funded by the patrons of The Spore Works Exotic Spore Supply My Instagram Reinvesting 25% of Sales Towards Basic Research and Species Identification 
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robbyberto
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Re: ATL#7 is not Psilocybe atlantis [Re: Workman]
#7855941 - 01/09/08 08:30 PM (16 years, 23 days ago) |
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I remember another poster photographed an unknown psilocybe in GA. Here is his post: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4430511#Post4430511 Perhaps it is one of the new GA species you were talking about also?
-------------------- “People say having kids is life changing, well that doesn’t necessarily mean a good thing, does it? I could take one of my legs off. That would change my life.” -Karl Pilkington
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



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Re: ATL#7 is not Psilocybe atlantis [Re: Workman]
#7907531 - 01/20/08 09:35 PM (16 years, 12 days ago) |
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Very cool. Very cool, indeed.
So, does anyone have spores from LK's original sample?
And as a layman... what is the difference between Tampanensis, Mexicana, Atlantis, and now (Known as Atlantis #7) Galindoi? Externally, they look as similar to one another as different types of cubes... they do the same thing... they grow on the same stuff... right?
How different are they really?
Why are they suddenly showing up everywhere?
Workman, you've been on the cutting edge of this for quite some time. Amazing stuff. Your friends at SW sent some Mex A spores to my friend from places in the past, Don Quixote... and he made a grow log of that experience. He loved 'em!
But now, the study of (Philosopher's Stone-like) sclerotia producers is moving at an alarmingly fast pace.
What are the differences, in spores... the location(s) in which they were found, observed food and water preferences (any differences), and, overall cool factor?
Let's have some facts... or if that is not what you think will work in this situation, let's have some speculation.
What is going on here?
Cube lovers, eat your heart out!
Sclerotia is where it is at!
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Workman
1999 Spore War Veteran



Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 3,598
Loc: Oregon, USA
Last seen: 6 hours, 48 minutes
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Re: ATL#7 is not Psilocybe atlantis [Re: Rose]
#7907827 - 01/20/08 10:55 PM (16 years, 12 days ago) |
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I have samples of LK's original collection of authentic P. atlantis, but the spores are now 6 or 7 years old so they may not be viable. I am going to check them out this week.
ATL#7 may not be P. galindoi, that is just the best fit for now. It is probably an undescribed species.
All of these species do look similar but they are different microscopically but also in some subtle macroscopic features as cap color, viscidity, striated cap margin, etc.
I am currently compiling all of the described species in the Section Mexicanae which includes all of the well known sclerotia formers. Not all of the species in this section form sclerotia. Psilocybe antioquensis looks very similar to Psilocybe mexicana but does not form stones. There is no guarantee that Psilocybe atlantis will form sclerotia either. On the other hand, Psilocybe samuiensis does form small stones in culture and I am still trying to secure more material of this species to find a productive strain.
I'll upload the Mexicanae paper to my journal on this site in a few weeks if time allows. It will have information on all of the known sclerotia forming species in this section that I have gleaned from the literature and my own experience.
-------------------- Research funded by the patrons of The Spore Works Exotic Spore Supply My Instagram Reinvesting 25% of Sales Towards Basic Research and Species Identification 
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Rose
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Re: ATL#7 is not Psilocybe atlantis [Re: Workman]
#7907877 - 01/20/08 11:10 PM (16 years, 12 days ago) |
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I can't wait!
Workman. You are changing the world.
SO uncommon in the wild, but now becoming common in the world of microscopy. And simple, simple cultivation.
I never thought so much would happen in so little time.
Please, for the love of God, put everything you can in your journal here. You have worked so hard on this. SHARE your scholarly information once you can.
I'd love to see a COMPREHENSIVE A-Z of what you've learned along the way about Mexicanae (I'm gonna use THAT term from now on... I LOVE it... like Cubensis. Nice.).
Perhaps it is just me, and like seven other people. But I've been watching your research for years... and I am absolutely thrilled about what you are discovering.
This is just the tip of the iceberg.
Good luck with the REAL Atlantis.
Keep it up Workman.
Thanks a million.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
Edited by Rose (01/20/08 11:19 PM)
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GGreatOne234
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 8,946
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Re: ATL#7 is not Psilocybe atlantis [Re: Workman]
#7912404 - 01/21/08 09:44 PM (16 years, 11 days ago) |
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......................................workman, i was looking back from years ago topics looking for that photograph the lizard made of i think 4 different psychoactive species, i think on the hood of his car. most of his images are gone now. do you have that image anywhere?
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Workman
1999 Spore War Veteran



Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 3,598
Loc: Oregon, USA
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Re: ATL#7 is not Psilocybe atlantis [Re: GGreatOne234]
#7915903 - 01/22/08 05:30 PM (16 years, 10 days ago) |
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Here ya go.

Its my understanding that the smallest mushrooms (labeled "my new Psilocybe spp.") are the true Psilocybe atlantis and one of the other two small types (either the "unknown Psilocybe spp" or "Psilocybe atlantis") is likely the same species as the ATL#7. It is not clear if the collections on the far left are of different species.
-------------------- Research funded by the patrons of The Spore Works Exotic Spore Supply My Instagram Reinvesting 25% of Sales Towards Basic Research and Species Identification 
Edited by Workman (01/22/08 05:32 PM)
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GGreatOne234
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/99
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Re: ATL#7 is not Psilocybe atlantis [Re: Workman]
#7917186 - 01/22/08 09:06 PM (16 years, 10 days ago) |
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yes... Weil's Psilocybe is in a league of its own..
I do believe that there was a professional mycologist in that area who started showing Lizard how to better find all four of those species pictured. The mycologist requested that his identity never be revealed.
Both times I visited we found weilii's and subbalteatus. And I never made it up for my third invite to have a look at those other Psilocybe's he was starting to find.. but i am still waiting 
I do not see P. mammillata in that group i do not think. It will never be found in America ever again (frustrating theory i have developed)
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GGreatOne234
Stranger
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Re: ATL#7 is not Psilocybe atlantis [Re: Workman]
#7917303 - 01/22/08 09:23 PM (16 years, 10 days ago) |
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oh and if i remember correctly, Lizard was first claiming that the species to the left of the weilii's, he was thinking that they were weilii, or a variation/subspecies of weilii for some reason.
notice the species to the left of the weilii have red clay attached to the base of the stems, much like the weilii he was finding at the time in the baby sweetgum forests.. he said that they had that similar flavor to the weil's..
i am very curious if Psilocybe caerulescens has a similar flavor to weilii.. any species with that flavor i would consider a mushroom of superior reasoning
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Workman
1999 Spore War Veteran



Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 3,598
Loc: Oregon, USA
Last seen: 6 hours, 48 minutes
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Re: ATL#7 is not Psilocybe atlantis [Re: Rose]
#7919446 - 01/23/08 11:24 AM (16 years, 9 days ago) |
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An incomplete version of the Section Mexicanae is now in my journal. Currently it only has published descriptions but I will add my own microscopy soon.
-------------------- Research funded by the patrons of The Spore Works Exotic Spore Supply My Instagram Reinvesting 25% of Sales Towards Basic Research and Species Identification 
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snoot
look alive ∞




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Re: ATL#7 is not Psilocybe atlantis [Re: Workman]
#7919763 - 01/23/08 12:51 PM (16 years, 9 days ago) |
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psilo. atlantis I like that name. Nice work workman.
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∞ I am incapable of conceiving infinity, and yet I do not accept finity. - Simone de Beauvoir -
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Gumby
Fishnologist


Registered: 06/13/01
Posts: 26,656
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Re: ATL#7 is not Psilocybe atlantis [Re: Workman]
#7920434 - 01/23/08 04:20 PM (16 years, 9 days ago) |
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Huh. I wonder if I picked that species with him. He took me hunting a few times and we were picking weilii and what he called a new species.
Doubt you can tell macroscopically, but are these the same mushrooms that you just worked with?














Did he say specifically where these mushrooms were picked? If yes, PM me and I'll let you know if it's the same place we used to pick. If he did I can possibly confirm that the mushrooms pictured there are the ones that you got the spores from.
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Workman
1999 Spore War Veteran



Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 3,598
Loc: Oregon, USA
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Re: ATL#7 is not Psilocybe atlantis [Re: Gumby]
#7920812 - 01/23/08 05:28 PM (16 years, 9 days ago) |
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I am pretty sure those are the authentic Psilocybe atlantis. But at the time LK thought they were a new species, possibly Psilocybe mammilata. I don't recall him giving any specific locations, but it seems that he said they were near a river or in a riverbed in sandy soil.
-------------------- Research funded by the patrons of The Spore Works Exotic Spore Supply My Instagram Reinvesting 25% of Sales Towards Basic Research and Species Identification 
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Gumby
Fishnologist


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Re: ATL#7 is not Psilocybe atlantis [Re: Workman]
#7920869 - 01/23/08 05:41 PM (16 years, 9 days ago) |
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Yeah, the mushrooms pictured there were picked near a river and the soil was sandy (note grains of sand stuck to the stipes).
I'm confused, is the species you just examined the ones that were found in the described habitat, or were you referring to Psilocybe atlantis?
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Workman
1999 Spore War Veteran



Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 3,598
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Re: ATL#7 is not Psilocybe atlantis [Re: Gumby]
#7920897 - 01/23/08 05:48 PM (16 years, 9 days ago) |
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I was refering to the tiny mushrooms that LK picked. The described habitat for Psiloycbe atlantis is a grassy lawn. Confusing enough?
-------------------- Research funded by the patrons of The Spore Works Exotic Spore Supply My Instagram Reinvesting 25% of Sales Towards Basic Research and Species Identification 
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Gumby
Fishnologist


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Posts: 26,656
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Re: ATL#7 is not Psilocybe atlantis [Re: Workman]
#7921042 - 01/23/08 06:22 PM (16 years, 9 days ago) |
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Alright then, those are pictures I posted are of the "ATL #7."
I've never picked a "new species" with LK in grassy lawns, only weilii.
I do have some pictures(that LK took) of mushrooms he suspected to be Psiloycbe atlantis. Want me to post those for reference purposes?
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Rose
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Re: ATL#7 is not Psilocybe atlantis [Re: Gumby]
#7921850 - 01/23/08 09:03 PM (16 years, 9 days ago) |
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I do.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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