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doc34
Fungitarian



Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 2,667
Loc: Myceliaville !!!
Last seen: 7 months, 29 days
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Re: help with casing [Re: fastfred]
#7858273 - 01/10/08 09:10 AM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
fastfred said: Doc, are you using coir as the substrate also?
No, I'm not. I use it as a "casing layer" only.
Now, others are saying that coir is a "substrate" and not a "casing" layer-I beg to differ. It's both! I have tried every casing material on the market and had different results with each, except one-coir! Now in order for a casing layer to be a true casing layer, it is suppose to be "non-nutrative"(sp?) meaning that it contains none or minute amounts of nutrients. If an organic substance is used it contains nutrients and coir(being organic) does indeed contain some nutrients, but, when used as a casing layer it produces extreme flushes just like or even better than the top grade materials-I don't care what it does or why it is called what it is-all I know is that it is the easiest to prepare(sterilizing or pasteurizing) as you don't add anything and you get results that are amazing-Why not use it as a "casing" layer-it works better than most of your true non-nutrient casing materials.
I'm not gonna argue this anymore cause its plain and simple=coir is the easiest thing for a newbie to use when first getting into casing and even if your a seasoned pro, to achieve dramatic results.
You call it a substrate and I call it a casing layer = who-gives-a-rats-ass?
It works as both!
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure



Registered: 03/26/03
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Loc: Seattle
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Re: help with casing [Re: doc34]
#7858302 - 01/10/08 09:19 AM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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Nice Flush! Obviously doc, you have the experience and knowledge to read your surface mycelium in order to know just when to initiate pinning. A few years ago, coir was widely used in casings, and many growers such as Roadkill, had and still have, great results with it. Most of us mixed it 60/40 verm-coir.
The problem with new growers using coir as a top layer is that if they don't yet know how to time initiation, it's very prone to overlay, just as any non-cased bulk substrate will be. I've grown on pure coir, as have many growers here and it works great. I'm sure putting it over straw gives the benefits of the coir, while also the massive water holding properties of straw, giving the best of both worlds. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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Mycodood



Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 277
Loc: USA
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said: Nice Flush! Obviously doc, you have the experience and knowledge to read your surface mycelium in order to know just when to initiate pinning. A few years ago, coir was widely used in casings, and many growers such as Roadkill, had and still have, great results with it. Most of us mixed it 60/40 verm-coir.
The problem with new growers using coir as a top layer is that if they don't yet know how to time initiation, it's very prone to overlay, just as any non-cased bulk substrate will be. I've grown on pure coir, as have many growers here and it works great. I'm sure putting it over straw gives the benefits of the coir, while also the massive water holding properties of straw, giving the best of both worlds. RR
And this is a question that I have always had when it comes to the "coir as a casing layer" debate.
When people say that adding a layer of coir is like adding another layer of substrate it makes me wonder, if your substrate is ready for primordia formation will adding coir as a casing layer make your substrate switch from pinning back to colonization mode? My first guess is no and at that point coir is providing moisture to the sub and not nutritive value.
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Mycodood



Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 277
Loc: USA
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
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Re: help with casing [Re: doc34]
#7858691 - 01/10/08 10:59 AM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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Doc, I love using coir especially in filteer patch bags. No casing needed, smells nice when mixed with spent coffee. I notice however that afte the first flush my block shrinks significantly and subsequent gflushes are weak.
I use a 80/20 coir/coffee mix. Any ideas on how to keep that shrinkage to a minimum?
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doc34
Fungitarian



Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 2,667
Loc: Myceliaville !!!
Last seen: 7 months, 29 days
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Re: help with casing [Re: Mycodood]
#7858803 - 01/10/08 11:18 AM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
When people say that adding a layer of coir is like adding another layer of substrate it makes me wonder, if your substrate is ready for primordia formation will adding coir as a casing layer make your substrate switch from pinning back to colonization mode?
No it will not convert back to colonization even if you do wait until hyphal knots appear.
I don't wait for any of that. I case it with coir when the substrate has been 100% colonised only-no knots or primordia have formed-I use it way, way before the substrate gets to that stage. It only gets to that stage after I case it with coir-therefore the mycelia doesn't recognise it as food but as a non-nitrient casing layer, or at least thats the way it acts. Once my substrate is colonized, I add the coir and 3-5 days later(once it is colonised) I innitiate pinning=3-5 days later I am witnessing an explosion of pins not under the coir or in it but from the surface. The casings never convert back unless you put them back into dark, and let the co2 build-up.
Quote:
The problem with new growers using coir as a top layer is that if they don't yet know how to time initiation, it's very prone to overlay, just as any non-cased bulk substrate will be.
Although I have never experienced 'over-lay' in the past, I can see your point. It is hard for a newbie to know when start the pinning process, that they will have to learn through trial and error, yes.
Anyhow thanks for kudo's on the flushes
Doc
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Captain Cubensis
Bleeding HeartLiberal


Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 648
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Re: help with casing [Re: doc34]
#7858829 - 01/10/08 11:22 AM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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I'm also a believer in peat/verm casings. I tried coir when everybody else was raving about it, but coir works far better in the substrate than in casings. RR 04/05/05
This is my first and last try using coir. I don't like the way it colonizes like a substrate and overlays in the fruiting chamber. I lightly scratched and patched the coir side, but it is already starting to overlay again. I do have pins now, but the set isn't great. It looks like it will overlay by the next flush, so I just might let it do that and fruit it like a big substrate block. I will not use coir again for casing cubes. -Blue Helix 04/03/04
I've always recommended peat/verm for casing. It's just that so many people are 'set' on using coir, that I grew tired of always saying it sucks as a casing, rather than a substrate. If it's mixed 60/40 or 70/30 verm-coir it will work, although not as well as a non-nutritious casing such as peat will. For those of you who were around then, I was the first person to say coir is a substrate material and not well suited for casing unless massively diluted with vermiculite. Until then, everybody seemed to repeat the lie that coir has no 'nutes'. In fact, saying that coir is better suited as a substrate than a casing material led to me getting banned from one of the other mushroom boards for being on a 'jihad' against coir and popcorn spawn. RR 11/03/06
I'm a peat based man through and through. -Hyphae 04/01/05
50/peat - 40/verm - 10/coir (Ph adjusted peat - of course) -Agar 04/16/05
You are 100% backwards. Coco coir is for substrates. Peat moss is for casing. -Monstermitch 09/16/06
Peat + verm- IMO this is the best mix. You get the fluffiness of the peat with the water retention of the verm. Only downside, and it's not a big one, is the semi need for calcium carbonate to balance the PH of the peat since it's acidic. However if you're only in it for a flush or two you can ignore that (i do, and i get great harvests from a 5lb casing). Verm- Verm will do in a pinch if for some reason peat isn't available. It provides great water retention and no other additives to balance out the PH. The only problem is that it tends to compact which is counterproductive in cultivation. When working with straight verm i suggest going on the sparser side and create a thin layer. Coir- IMO coir makes a better substrate then a casing layer. -Coda 08/16/07
You don't want nutes in the casing layer. -Hyphae 07/04/07
The only draw back to the Verm/Coco Coir casing is...that you need to fruit it before the mycelium breaks the surface of the casing layer. If you wait too long to fruit...the mycelium will grow through the casing layer too quickly and you will have to patch the casing layer...and if you don't patch it, you might get a bad pinset. -Roadkill 04/14/05
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doc34
Fungitarian



Registered: 02/14/04
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Loc: Myceliaville !!!
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Yeah, I can quote alot of people too, but I would rather take my 20 + years of cultivating and go back into hiding with all of my secrets in my frail little hands, before I would continue to argue this anymore.
"Do as you wish and believe what you want while I lay in my bed of shrooms!" Doc 2/10/08

Doc
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Captain Cubensis
Bleeding HeartLiberal


Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 648
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Re: help with casing [Re: doc34]
#7859158 - 01/10/08 12:20 PM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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That some have used it, and continue to use coir as a casing layer material does not say anything about whether it is better to use peat than coir, in your casing layers.
Hell, you can fruit a bible, a stack of newspapers, even popcorn has worked for peeps. Commercial farms do not add substrate to their casing layers.
You can fruit a block of coir with NO CASING at all.
I agree with you about your 20 years experience, nothing compares to that, no one doubts you.
The thing is, when I advocate unorthodox ideas people quote the masters to prove me wrong, or cite commercial farms.
When I advocate accepted ideas people still want to prove me wrong.
The question here is this, am I wrong?
All I claimed was that peat is a better casing layer material then coir, which is better used as a substrate.
Roger is very careful to not agree with me, to make me look bad, although in reality he does agree, that coir is better in the sub,and peat is better in the casing layer than coir.
All I claimed was that peat is a better casing layer material then coir, which is better used as a substrate.
Please, tell me that isn't 100% wrong.
Edited by Captain Cubensis (01/10/08 12:56 PM)
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