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Offlineemrandel
Love iS freeD


Registered: 03/03/07
Posts: 94
Last seen: 15 years, 9 months
Some LC tek problems
    #7846524 - 01/07/08 11:53 PM (16 years, 25 days ago)

So the other day I made my first LC. I used the grocery karo LC tek. I got myself a couple of those 250mL rubbermaid containers and threw in 200mL of clean water, a teaspoon of karo and a teaspoon of sugar in the raw. Mixed it up till it was dissolved, threw some plastic wrap over it and cracked the lid just like it says in the tek. Threw it in the microwave for 5 minutes. As soon as it was done I closed the lid, it was damn hot. Then I let it cool down in the fridge, when it was down to room temperature I opened the lid and instead of the plastic wrap staying neatly sealed as a barrier to contaminants parts of it had melted to the lid and tore a bit. I quickly shot 1-2cc of some B+ spore solution in there and sealed the lid again.

Now, for obvious reasons, I'm worried that the LC will contaminate. What do you guys think my chances are of producing a clean LC? How will I be able to tell that it's contam'd? I've heard posts saying that if it's cloudy it's contam'd. But I'm worried I won't be able to tell the difference between mycelium and the so called "cloudy" contams.

Any advice for this situation would be much appreciated. Oh, and I made three just like this.


--------------------
"No drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we're looking for the source of our troubles, we shouldn't test people for drugs, we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, green and love of power!" - P.J. O'Rourke


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Offlineemrandel
Love iS freeD


Registered: 03/03/07
Posts: 94
Last seen: 15 years, 9 months
Re: Some LC tek problems [Re: emrandel]
    #7849962 - 01/08/08 07:45 PM (16 years, 24 days ago)

I hope it's not too soon to bump but it's already dropped back to the fourth page w/o any replies and 30 views. So I'll just give it this one bump and if I don't get any replies I'll just let it go.

Thanks


--------------------
"No drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we're looking for the source of our troubles, we shouldn't test people for drugs, we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, green and love of power!" - P.J. O'Rourke


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OfflineMayorMcCheese
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Registered: 11/10/07
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Re: Some LC tek problems [Re: emrandel]
    #7852312 - 01/09/08 03:44 AM (16 years, 23 days ago)

Could you link me to the tek you used? I searched but I can't find the one you are referring to.


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Offlineveda_sticks
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Re: Some LC tek problems [Re: MayorMcCheese]
    #7852437 - 01/09/08 05:39 AM (16 years, 23 days ago)

microwave tek is not the greatest, i would recomend using a pot of boiling water.

Do not cool jars in the fridge, they must be allowed to cool naturaly, the rapid descrease in temperature can cause dirty air to be sucked into your jar.

Fridges are horrible places full of bacteria and other nasty stuff.

look up other lc teks, there are alot of good ones


--------------------

PF TEK - writeup by EvilMushroom666
Lets Grow Mushrooms - RogerRabbit & RoadKills website with sample videos plus the full PF TEK video series. Alot of great information - BUY THE DVD
Cakes can and will pin! - So you think cakes suck for pins. Your wrong
Franks Simple Coir/Verm Tek
Franks Proper Pasturisation Tek
Franks Spawning To Bulk - Monotub
Professor Pinheads RTV Injection Port Tek
Foo Mans No Soak WBS Prep Tek


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Offlineoysterguy63
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Registered: 04/08/05
Posts: 463
Loc: God's Country
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
Re: Some LC tek problems [Re: veda_sticks]
    #7853791 - 01/09/08 01:53 PM (16 years, 23 days ago)

As to the answer to your question....only time will tell.  Anytime you have even a moment like that where exposure to contamination is possible.....you never know-though typically good fortune is not likely to follow.  The best practice is ensure that doesn't happen.....using some type of self-healing injection point is best so you don't have to open anything.  Now that you've heard my "hindsight is 20-20" comment....just wait and see.  What can it hurt? 

I also agree with Veda...not the best tek...try some of the others and see how that goes for ya.  :smile:


--------------------
Oysters...yuummmmm


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Some LC tek problems [Re: oysterguy63]
    #7856276 - 01/09/08 09:37 PM (16 years, 23 days ago)

> What do you guys think my chances are of producing a clean LC?

Slim to none. Microwave sterilization does not work. Researchers have tried to perfect it for many years, but microwaves simply don't penetrate evenly enough to ever get real sterilization.

> I'm worried I won't be able to tell the difference between mycelium and the so called "cloudy" contams.

Look through the liquid. If you can see through it well then it's not cloudy. Cloudiness is a haze throughout the LC. Myc will be visible as strands, not cloudiness. It's not hard to tell the difference. I suggest preparing a control jar for comparison.

You will almost certainly fail and I'm curious where you got the idea that microwave sterilization would work?


-FF


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InvisibleBlutjager
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Re: Some LC tek problems [Re: fastfred]
    #7857013 - 01/09/08 11:30 PM (16 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
Look through the liquid. If you can see through it well then it's not cloudy. Cloudiness is a haze throughout the LC. Myc will be visible as strands, not cloudiness. It's not hard to tell the difference. I suggest preparing a control jar for comparison.


-FF





Maybe a pic or two of a healthy lc will help you out,there is a link in my Sig that tells you how I make it


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OfflineMrAbstraction
Twing!


Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 75
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: Some LC tek problems [Re: fastfred]
    #7857295 - 01/10/08 12:20 AM (16 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:

You will almost certainly fail and I'm curious where you got the idea that microwave sterilization would work?


-FF




I know that Microwave sterilization isn't popular, but it most certainly CAN work.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/7713624/an/0/page/0

Everything in that grow log was done in the microwave. The LC's pictured are currently the originating inoculate for some very nice spawn which is now in perfectly healthy coir/coffee subs (also microwaved)

Call me lucky if you want, but this is where people get the idea that microwaving CAN work - pictures of it WORKING.

/ma


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Some LC tek problems [Re: MrAbstraction]
    #7857628 - 01/10/08 02:42 AM (16 years, 23 days ago)

> I know that Microwave sterilization isn't popular, but it most certainly CAN work.

No, it doesn't work. Occasionally you may get lucky and heat the entire culture up to boiling and you may also luck out and have only contaminates that are killed at that temperature. But it's not an effective method of sterilization. For one it doesn't reach sterilization temperatures. For another it doesn't heat evenly enough to have a good success rate.

I suggest you read some papers on microwave sterilization. They usually report some results, and things often look somewhat promising, but they haven't found a way to get anywhere the reliability required to call it "effective" or "sterilization".

I don't mean to diss your thread, but your cakes do not look healthy and it doesn't look like you got good results from them. Myc will grow and fruit amongst contams and bacteria sometimes, under some conditions. In the right climate you might well be able to get away with no sterilization at all most of the time. however for most people this will simply result in disaster.


-FF


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OfflineMrAbstraction
Twing!


Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 75
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: Some LC tek problems [Re: fastfred]
    #7857673 - 01/10/08 03:16 AM (16 years, 23 days ago)

You most certainly meant to dis my thread... but whatever, the cakes were fine and produced about 8g dry per flush, 3 flushes. Grasp at some other straw please.

How about you throw me a couple of links to papers microwave sterilization "research"? Microwave sterilization of what exactly are we talking about? Boiled water is certainly sterile for all intents and purposes... are you saying a microwave can't boil water, sir?

Edit: Ok, I see where I was confused and why I'm at issue with your post, you said "No, it dosn't work." and in the same breath "Occasionally you may get lucky...". So, what you're really trying to say is that it works under certain conditions.

/ma


Edited by MrAbstraction (01/10/08 03:35 AM)


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Invisibleshaggydogman
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Registered: 04/20/07
Posts: 672
Re: Some LC tek problems [Re: MrAbstraction]
    #7857695 - 01/10/08 03:54 AM (16 years, 22 days ago)

I used to love Elsie, but, for me, this love affair is now well and truly over! She's a dirty little slag!!

I spent a lot of time with her, and a times we had the fastest, thickest colonization ever!! It was the best! But a lot of the time she told me lies!! I'd look at her and everything would seem fine. I'd ask her how she was feeling, fit and healthy she'd say, but all the while she had been seeing other spores. Letting the dirty little things inside her warm liquids behind my back.

I got wind of it the first time. I decided to be careful, pay her more attention, kept her clean, gave her a good home and how did she repay me! Oh for a while she was good, back to her sexy ways, but it didn't take her long to slip back into her old cheating ways, the dirty slag..

We'd set up plans together, 3 weeks time she promised she'd give me fully colonized jars. We were gona have jars together!! What did I get? Yeah that's right, the dirty little b$%7ard product of her infidelity! I feel such a fool, so cheated ,so let down, so much wasted time.

I know there are people out there that can handle Elsie, tame her so to speak. But as far as I'm concerned, the slags dumped!

I gone back to my ex now, shes very reliable but a bit slower and less sexy, but she is my Printcess!!!


--------------------
Rye -- WBS | Grain LC -- G2G | Bulk -- Monotub | 50/50 -- Late Casing -- A Pinning Strategy
Disclaimer: My opinion is subject to change at short notice subject to but not limited by new information and knowledge being made available.


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OfflineNibin
Getting there
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Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 4,480
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
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Re: Some LC tek problems [Re: MrAbstraction]
    #7857700 - 01/10/08 04:04 AM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

MrAbstraction said:
You most certainly meant to dis my thread... but whatever, the cakes were fine and produced about 8g dry per flush, 3 flushes. Grasp at some other straw please.

How about you throw me a couple of links to papers microwave sterilization "research"? Microwave sterilization of what exactly are we talking about? Boiled water is certainly sterile for all intents and purposes... are you saying a microwave can't boil water, sir?

Edit: Ok, I see where I was confused and why I'm at issue with your post, you said "No, it dosn't work." and in the same breath "Occasionally you may get lucky...". So, what you're really trying to say is that it works under certain conditions.

/ma




Boiling water at 100ºC does not sterilize. That is why we have to use an autoclave or pressure cooker.

So, even if the microwave managed to crank the temps up to 100ºC it still wouldn't be sterilizing.

What was the substrate of your grow in the log? BRF cakes? As we all know, they don't need pressure cooking so the microwave might have been able to do the job.

The biggest problem with microwaves is that they don't heat stuff up evenly, so while some areas are at 100ºC others will be at less. All it takes is a contaminant to be in the less warm areas and you are fucked.

Basically the issue on microwaves is that while they can work, they do not work consistently enough to be considered an effective means of sterilization, they are just a ghetto substitution if you can't get your hands on anything else.


--------------------
Newcomers guide-----> For all things shroomy


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OfflineNibin
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Re: Some LC tek problems [Re: MrAbstraction]
    #7857703 - 01/10/08 04:11 AM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Sorry, double post


--------------------
Newcomers guide-----> For all things shroomy


Edited by Nibin (01/10/08 04:19 AM)


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Some LC tek problems [Re: MrAbstraction]
    #7857708 - 01/10/08 04:20 AM (16 years, 22 days ago)

> the cakes were fine and produced about 8g dry per flush

Well I'm glad to hear that things turned out alright. All I had to go on was your pics, and they were less than impressive. (no offense)

> How about you throw me a couple of links to papers microwave sterilization "research"?

Certainly...

Mechanism of microwave sterilization in the dry state.
D K Jeng, K A Kaczmarek, A G Woodworth, and G Balasky

Quote:

Under these experimental conditions, we unequivocally demonstrated that the mechanism of sporicidal action of the microwaves was caused solely by thermal effects. Nonthermal effects were not significant in a dry microwave sterilization process. Both heating systems showed that a dwelling time of more than 45 min was required to sterilize 10(5) inoculated spores in dry glass vials at 137 degrees C.




Microwave sterilization
MD Rohrer and RA Bulard
Journal of the American Dental Association, Vol 110, Issue 2, 194-198

Quote:

Consistent sterilization can be accomplished only if the items to be sterilized are rotated in a three-dimensional manner throughout the microwave cavity


.

Seed Germination Medium Made Easy
January 1990 AOS

Quote:

It should be observed here that a microwave oven has no inherent sterilizing capacity: rather, Steve used this technique to raise his formulae to boiling temperatures, which should kill many bacteria, but not resistant spores. Thus, it is imperfect, which results in a certain level of failure.
[...]
The editor is to the opinion that, should anyone desire to become involved in seed-sowing as a hobby, they invest in a simple pressure cooker, for home canning use; sterilization as achieved through the higher heat level as achieved through use of a pressure cooker virtually assures complete sterilization when used at home.





There are many reports of success and failure in the literature. One thing that is clear is that it's not a consistent method.

Any method that is basically heat sterilization is highly prone to failure when the heat is not even. Everybody knows that microwaves have cold spots that aren't going to heat properly.

A major problem with microwaves is that they only heat water because microwave radiation is tuned to the frequency required to heat water. Dry areas aren't going to be heated much at all, thus they remain unsterilized.

YMMV. People in some climates can get away with shitty procedures. Others in climates with high spore loads will have a 0% success rate.


-FF


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OfflineMrAbstraction
Twing!


Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 75
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: Some LC tek problems [Re: fastfred]
    #7859768 - 01/10/08 02:14 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

The OP is asking if he has risked contamination by exposing his liquid culture to open air. The answer is yes, he has risked contamination. FF says that the culture had a (not even a) snowflakes chance in hell to be clean because of the microwave - all I'm saying is that karo water nuked for 5 minutes is clean. If he hadn't opened the top, he would have an iceberg's chance in hell.

So to summarize, as I understand it, using the chance in hell-o-meter;
1) FF believes nuked LC's have a snowflakes chance;
2) I believe they have a icebergs's chance;
3) PC's are Satan;

Interesting reading on microwave sterilization, thanks for taking the time to pull that out and for choosing unbiased info. I agree with you and Nibin in that sterilizing something dry would probably not be effective, but we're talking about LC (and BRF subs are not dry...)

To the OP; IMO, if you haven't already chucked your LC's and are planning to use it, I recommend testing it on a small amount of substrate and see if contams grow, you won't be able to reliably tell if the culture is contaminiated by looking for "cloudy" water.

/ma


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Some LC tek problems [Re: MrAbstraction]
    #7860211 - 01/10/08 03:38 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Well one issue I see is that your sterilization procedure doesn't seem sound at all.

5 minutes isn't enough time to sterilize even at 121C, let alone at boiling temperatures in the microwave. What you're doing is relying on the fact that the water is clean and the karo is sterile and full of preservatives.

That's fine if you can get away with it, but I wouldn't rely on it or make it a matter of practice.

I've never understood why people try to cut corners on the cornerstone of the entire process.


-FF


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