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InvisibleGijith
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Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists [Re: BrAiN]
    #7843574 - 01/07/08 01:32 PM (16 years, 25 days ago)

BrAiN,

I have to say I agree with KOTT. The single greatest determining factor of the US's long term success will be how well we educate in Math and Science. IMO, nothing else comes close. We need to be able to compete in these areas. And based on all the rankings, all the available evidence, we could very well be overtaken by countries who put a greater emphasis on these subjects and have been doing a better job teaching them.

I teach science, mostly geology. There is an incredible amount of very convincing evidence that the earth is billions of years old. The general consensus is that it's about 4.54 billion years. Is this a fact? Hell, no. Actually, that number will almost certainly change as new evidence becomes available. What's important is that we've created a model, backed up by a shit load of evidence and generally agreed upon. That's exactly how I teach it (minus the profanity).

There's a large number of people in this country who would rather that I give equal time to this opposing "theory": the Earth was most likely created by a series of catastrophic events over the course of, let's say, 6 days. And is now approximately, let's say, 6011 years old. They'll say, well we need to teach this, in science class, because it represents a different, and popular, point of view. The problem is that it's not, in any way, scientific. In fact, it contradicts pretty much every established theory within geology. If I have to stop every time I'm teaching on, say, dinosaur fossils, and say "remember, scientists believe dinosaurs lived and went extinct millions of years ago... but there's also another perspective of thought that says they coexisted with man," then yes, this country would be motherfucking doomed.

If there's a widely held belief that ignorance is spelled with an E, instead of an O, should we make sure to cover both viewpoints on how to spell it? How about if a bunch of rednecks believe that AIDs was delivered to Earth to wipe out homosexuals? Certainly an alternate viewpoint! What's the point of school if it's simply a place to present various - often completely baseless - ideas which contradict each other?

Here kids: 1+1=2, 1+1=9, 1+1=W. I'm not going to teach you which one is right. Take your pick. Next week, I'll let you take your pick with multiplication. Then, when you try to learn calculus, it'll surely make sense.


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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Offlinemarz13
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Registered: 10/30/07
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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #7843581 - 01/07/08 01:33 PM (16 years, 25 days ago)

The earth is dying at a fast rate. Soon the world will end and then when its all over we can see who was right. Science nor governments can save earth. In fact, Science has done way more harm than good. Its too late to save earth.

Here are some pictures of your beloved scientist hard at work.











Caused by new weapons made by American scientist. Given to Israel as a gift.




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OfflineSyle
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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists [Re: marz13]
    #7843640 - 01/07/08 01:46 PM (16 years, 25 days ago)

I could post 100x more pics of the terrible things that have been done in the name of religion, so don't go there.

I just disagree with this thread on the basis that it's just fear-mongering from the left: the US is DOOMED if a religious President is elected.

Give me a fucking break :rolleyes:


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Offlinemarz13
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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists [Re: Syle]
    #7843655 - 01/07/08 01:50 PM (16 years, 25 days ago)

Religion does sick ass. But so does science.  :grin:


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OfflineSyle
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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists [Re: marz13]
    #7843672 - 01/07/08 01:54 PM (16 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

marz13 said:
Religion does sick ass. But so does science.  :grin:




No, each of these can do sick things in the hands of the wrong people.


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Offlinemarz13
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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists [Re: Syle]
    #7843699 - 01/07/08 02:01 PM (16 years, 25 days ago)

In the hands of wicked men. Last time I checked there were more wicked than good. I'm just saying, the earth is dying and no one can heal it. Religion and governments are to blame. With the help of science of course.


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OfflineSyle
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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists [Re: marz13]
    #7843704 - 01/07/08 02:03 PM (16 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

marz13 said:
In the hands of wicked men. Last time I checked there were more wicked than good. I'm just saying, the earth is dying and no one can heal it. Religion and governments are to blame. With the help of science of course.




All 3 of which have been an evolutionarily natural step in the history of mankind. So, you basically despise your own species?


--------------------
https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists [Re: marz13]
    #7843720 - 01/07/08 02:07 PM (16 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

marz13 said:
In the hands of wicked men. Last time I checked there were more wicked than good. I'm just saying, the earth is dying and no one can heal it. Religion and governments are to blame. With the help of science of course.




This is funny.

You should learn a little bit about the history of this planet before you write it of as a dying entity.

The Earth has been through 4.6 *billion* years of cataclysmic upheaval and unimaginable destruction. This is undoubtedly one of the calmer periods in the history of this planet.

But I'm a scientist, so feel free to discount what I say.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineSyle
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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7843727 - 01/07/08 02:10 PM (16 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Quote:

marz13 said:
In the hands of wicked men. Last time I checked there were more wicked than good. I'm just saying, the earth is dying and no one can heal it. Religion and governments are to blame. With the help of science of course.




This is funny.

You should learn a little bit about the history of this planet before you write it of as a dying entity.

The Earth has been through 4.6 *billion* years of cataclysmic upheaval and unimaginable destruction. This is undoubtedly one of the calmer periods in the history of this planet.

But I'm a scientist, so feel free to discount what I say.




--------------------
https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!


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Offlinemarz13
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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7843739 - 01/07/08 02:14 PM (16 years, 25 days ago)

The calm before the storm.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists [Re: marz13]
    #7843742 - 01/07/08 02:15 PM (16 years, 25 days ago)

You are hellaciously ignorant.

There is literally nothing we could do to make conditions approach what they have been in the past.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Offlinemarz13
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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7843766 - 01/07/08 02:25 PM (16 years, 25 days ago)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6108414.stm

Your a scientist. You know that when they are gone we are all gone.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists [Re: marz13]
    #7843811 - 01/07/08 02:34 PM (16 years, 25 days ago)

Here's your article. Outside of the typically British sensationalist headline, show me where a scientist says that sea life will be extinct in 50 years?

Did you read that article, or did you just read the headline?

Because I have my doubts...

Quote:



'Only 50 years left' for sea fish

Natural protection

Enlarge Image
There will be virtually nothing left to fish from the seas by the middle of the century if current trends continue, according to a major scientific study.

Stocks have collapsed in nearly one-third of sea fisheries, and the rate of decline is accelerating.

Writing in the journal Science, the international team of researchers says fishery decline is closely tied to a broader loss of marine biodiversity.

But a greater use of protected areas could safeguard existing stocks.

"The way we use the oceans is that we hope and assume there will always be another species to exploit after we've completely gone through the last one," said research leader Boris Worm, from Dalhousie University in Canada.


"What we're highlighting is there is a finite number of stocks; we have gone through one-third, and we are going to get through the rest," he told the BBC News website.

Steve Palumbi, from Stanford University in California, one of the other scientists on the project, added: "Unless we fundamentally change the way we manage all the ocean species together, as working ecosystems, then this century is the last century of wild seafood."

Spanning the seas

This is a vast piece of research, incorporating scientists from many institutions in Europe and the Americas, and drawing on four distinctly different kinds of data.


Catch records from the open sea give a picture of declining fish stocks.

In 2003, 29% of open sea fisheries were in a state of collapse, defined as a decline to less than 10% of their original yield.

Bigger vessels, better nets, and new technology for spotting fish are not bringing the world's fleets bigger returns - in fact, the global catch fell by 13% between 1994 and 2003.

Historical records from coastal zones in North America, Europe and Australia also show declining yields, in step with declining species diversity; these are yields not just of fish, but of other kinds of seafood too.

Zones of biodiversity loss also tended to see more beach closures, more blooms of potentially harmful algae, and more coastal flooding.


We should protect biodiversity, and it does pay off through fisheries yield

Experiments performed in small, relatively contained ecosystems show that reductions in diversity tend to bring reductions in the size and robustness of local fish stocks. This implies that loss of biodiversity is driving the declines in fish stocks seen in the large-scale studies.

The final part of the jigsaw is data from areas where fishing has been banned or heavily restricted.

These show that protection brings back biodiversity within the zone, and restores populations of fish just outside.

Click here to see where the evidence came from

"The image I use to explain why biodiversity is so important is that marine life is a bit like a house of cards," said Dr Worm.

"All parts of it are integral to the structure; if you remove parts, particularly at the bottom, it's detrimental to everything on top and threatens the whole structure.

"And we're learning that in the oceans, species are very strongly linked to each other - probably more so than on land."

Protected interest

What the study does not do is attribute damage to individual activities such as over-fishing, pollution or habitat loss; instead it paints a picture of the cumulative harm done across the board.

Even so, a key implication of the research is that more of the oceans should be protected.

Nets on tuna boat. Image: Wolcott Henry 2005/Marine Photobank
Modern fishing methods such as purse seine nets are very efficient

But the extent of protection is not the only issue, according to Carl Gustaf Lundin, head of the global marine programme at IUCN, the World Conservation Union.

"The benefits of marine-protected areas are quite clear in a few cases; there's no doubt that protecting areas leads to a lot more fish and larger fish, and less vulnerability," he said.

"But you also have to have good management of marine parks and good management of fisheries. Clearly, fishing should not wreck the ecosystem, bottom trawling being a good example of something which does wreck the ecosystem."

But, he said, the concept of protecting fish stocks by protecting biodiversity does make sense.

"This is a good compelling case; we should protect biodiversity, and it does pay off even in simple monetary terms through fisheries yield."

Protecting stocks demands the political will to act on scientific advice - something which Boris Worm finds lacking in Europe, where politicians have ignored recommendations to halt the iconic North Sea cod fishery year after year.

Without a ban, scientists fear the North Sea stocks could follow the Grand Banks cod of eastern Canada into apparently terminal decline.

"I'm just amazed, it's very irrational," he said.

"You have scientific consensus and nothing moves. It's a sad example; and what happened in Canada should be such a warning, because now it's collapsed it's not coming back."




--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Offlinemarz13
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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7843904 - 01/07/08 02:54 PM (16 years, 25 days ago)

"Safeguard"? "Unless"? Sounds like a plan to me!

"Protecting stocks demands the political will to act on scientific advice - something which Boris Worm finds lacking in Europe, where politicians have ignored recommendations to halt the iconic North Sea cod fishery year after year."


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Offlinemarz13
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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists [Re: marz13]
    #7843916 - 01/07/08 02:56 PM (16 years, 25 days ago)

"Lacking" and "Ignored" sound positive! Right?


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists [Re: marz13]
    #7844737 - 01/07/08 05:41 PM (16 years, 25 days ago)

IF you're so worried, do something about it. Get your ass off an internet web board and go make a difference.


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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists [Re: marz13]
    #7844892 - 01/07/08 06:17 PM (16 years, 25 days ago)

I'm glad we're whipping the terrorists' asses. When McCain's elected we'll destroy even more of them.


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists [Re: BrAiN]
    #7845016 - 01/07/08 06:41 PM (16 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

BrAiN said:

I believe in evolution just like you guys, but I still think it's just a theory. And to belief in a theory, like you said, requires faith.






What does faith have to do with understanding and accepting a theory?


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists [Re: downforpot]
    #7845033 - 01/07/08 06:44 PM (16 years, 25 days ago)

Evolution is an observable fact. Natural selection is a theory.


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7845054 - 01/07/08 06:49 PM (16 years, 25 days ago)

Science as a whole is made up of theories. The problem is that there are so many morons in our country that don't even know the definition of a scientific theory. They all think it means a "guess". Fucking morons.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


Edited by downforpot (01/07/08 06:51 PM)


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