Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   North Spore Bulk Substrate   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineBrAiN
Art Fag
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists [Re: lonestar2004]
    #7841122 - 01/06/08 08:06 PM (16 years, 26 days ago)

Damn straight


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleKingOftheThing
the cool fool
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists [Re: lonestar2004]
    #7841998 - 01/06/08 11:54 PM (16 years, 26 days ago)

creationists are in denial, we shouldnt be anti intellectual. just because a large amount of americans are uniformed and in denial doesnt mean we should teach their horse shit in a science class.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSoY
I am the LizardKing
 User Gallery


Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #7842048 - 01/07/08 12:16 AM (16 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

creationists are in denial, we shouldnt be anti intellectual. just because a large amount of americans are uniformed and in denial doesnt mean we should teach their horse shit in a science class.




:thumbup:


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists [Re: SoY]
    #7842444 - 01/07/08 06:28 AM (16 years, 25 days ago)

This piece probably has little to do with evolution. The reality is that government funding for scientific research is at an all-time low. This is often blamed on right-wing "anti-science" policies, not the evolution debate per se.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 20 days
Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists [Re: badchad]
    #7842454 - 01/07/08 06:35 AM (16 years, 25 days ago)

> The reality is that government funding for scientific research is at an all-time low.

Why should the government be funding scientific research? I must have missed the part in the US constitution that says, "Congress shall tax the people in order to provide funding for scientific research."


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBrAiN
Art Fag
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists [Re: Seuss]
    #7842482 - 01/07/08 06:58 AM (16 years, 25 days ago)

One day I'll take the time to read the entire constitution, but it's probably broad and ambiguous enough to give the legislature enough power to do this...

And if a majority of ELECTED officials (who supposedly represent the people's interests) think their constituents (sp?) would agree with the idea... why not do it?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists [Re: BrAiN]
    #7842498 - 01/07/08 07:11 AM (16 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

One day I'll take the time to read the entire constitution, but it's probably broad and ambiguous enough to give the legislature enough power to do this...




Actually, it isn't.

Quote:

And if a majority of ELECTED officials (who supposedly represent the people's interests) think their constituents (sp?) would agree with the idea... why not do it?




Substitute "slavery" for "scientific research" and ask yourself the same question.



Phred


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBrAiN
Art Fag
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists [Re: Phred]
    #7842512 - 01/07/08 07:30 AM (16 years, 25 days ago)

Sure there is:

Quote:

Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;





That's quoted DIRECTLY from the constitution. Article 1, Section 8

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.text.html

How much more abiguous can you get than "General Welfare"?

Of all the judges out there on the Seupreme Court, you don't think there'd be a few that would lump scientific research to benefit human health as "General Welfare"? What about money for space sciences? Wouldn't it be the "General Welfare" of the public to know if/when an asteroid is going to hit earth or if the carbon we're emitting is actually destroying the ozone.. or any other scientific research that's federally funded?

If you STILL manage to wiggle your way out of admitting that Congres has the power to federally fund scientific research, you have to admit the wording, at least, warrants a review from the JUDICIAL BRANCH to determine if certain things (like scientific research) belong in the category of "General Welfare". If the founding fathers thought the constitution was obvious and black&white to everyone, they never would have created the judicial branch for the purpose of INTERPRETING the constitution.


Edited by BrAiN (01/07/08 07:38 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists [Re: Seuss]
    #7842524 - 01/07/08 07:37 AM (16 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Why should the government be funding scientific research? I must have missed the part in the US constitution that says, "Congress shall tax the people in order to provide funding for scientific research."




Some would argue that gaining knowledge and insight through scientific advancement is a good thing. The majority of science done at Universities would not receive private funding as it would not yield anything profitable.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBrAiN
Art Fag
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists [Re: badchad]
    #7842528 - 01/07/08 07:39 AM (16 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
Why should the government be funding scientific research? I must have missed the part in the US constitution that says, "Congress shall tax the people in order to provide funding for scientific research."




Some would argue that gaining knowledge and insight through scientific advancement is a good thing. The majority of science done at Universities would not receive private funding as it would not yield anything profitable.




I wonder how much of the funding to universities are handed down from the feds. I'd imagine most of their money comes from the state, hence why we have such imbalances in tuition from state to state (U of of MD is like 3500+ a semester where U of Cal is more like 1800).


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineeve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte Flag
Last seen: 24 days, 10 hours
Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists [Re: BrAiN]
    #7842534 - 01/07/08 07:41 AM (16 years, 25 days ago)

Creationism is not knowledge it is faith. This is the difference. Strange how nobody mentions the issue that teaching a faith in school. This is not an issue of teaching conflicting 'theories' but rather an issue of teaching theory versus faith. Theories have the potential to be disproven, whereas faith does not. Strange how the most brilliant posters on this topic above seem to not see the obvious schism and argue the topics each on its own merit. There is no merit in teaching faith in public schools which are run by the government, in the United States which are founded upon the idea of self governance of belief. If people cannot see that simple fact then there's little hope for the country remaining a viable source of supposed freedom upon this Earth.


--------------------
...or something







Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 20 days
Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists [Re: BrAiN]
    #7842556 - 01/07/08 07:53 AM (16 years, 25 days ago)

> The majority of science done at Universities would not receive private funding as it would not yield anything profitable

The vast majority of the research that I was involved with in the university setting was funded by private corporations rather than government.

> and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States

The "general welfare" is the kicker... I don't have time right now to back my position, but in general most government backed scientific research ends up belonging to the researcher (or institute) rather than the government. I co-own patents (along with the university) for research that I did that was payed for by you, the tax payer. The university makes money, via licensing of these patents, and the government gets nothing in return other than a good feeling for spending your tax money on my research.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists [Re: Seuss]
    #7842603 - 01/07/08 08:15 AM (16 years, 25 days ago)

I would guess that it depends on the type of research.

The vast majority of research I have been involved in is government funded. This is because it produced a scientific finding. It produced "results", rather than something that was tangible and able to be patented.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBrAiN
Art Fag
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists [Re: eve69]
    #7842721 - 01/07/08 09:08 AM (16 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

eve69 said:
Creationism is not knowledge it is faith. This is the difference. Strange how nobody mentions the issue that teaching a faith in school. This is not an issue of teaching conflicting 'theories' but rather an issue of teaching theory versus faith. Theories have the potential to be disproven, whereas faith does not. Strange how the most brilliant posters on this topic above seem to not see the obvious schism and argue the topics each on its own merit. There is no merit in teaching faith in public schools which are run by the government, in the United States which are founded upon the idea of self governance of belief. If people cannot see that simple fact then there's little hope for the country remaining a viable source of supposed freedom upon this Earth.




I believe in evolution just like you guys, but I still think it's just a theory. And to belief in a theory, like you said, requires faith.

Then again, I think even Atheism requires faith.

I think saying America is "doomed" if we, as a whole, don't accept evolution is pretty silly. Just because people have religious beliefs doesn't mean we're doomed.

I only think we're "doomed" if our parents get so lazy they rely on schools and tv to teach their kids everything about life.

I believe in evolution and I don't give a fuck if they mention creationism in school. I'm just talking about it simply being mentioned alongside other parallel beliefs about how the universe started somewhere in a chapter in their textbook that deals with the universe. "Where we all came from in the beginning" is a completely philisophical question which is hard to seperate from science.. and it's the one question that will NEVER be proven scientifically so you might as well teach your kid from an early age that there is no science without philosophy and no philisophy without science.

The fear of having creationism presented when your kid is learning about the universe.... is about as absurd as the fear of having your kid turn gay just because gay people are allowed to marry. What's to fear?

In the end, when my kid gets home. I'll just tell him/her what I believe and that he can make up his own opinion.... At least if he learns about creationism in school he'll know what kind of people he has to deal with on a daily basis. School should teach more than just arts and sciences. A good school should prepare your kid for the real world and help him adapt socially to the real world.

Ever meet a kid who was homeschooled their whole life? My roommate in college was. She was hot as hell, yet the most socially inept person on the planet because her parents shielded her from even HEARING about any viewpoints alternative to the ones they believed. Your kids have to learn to interact and get along with people who believe different ideas *eventually*. I'd rather my kids at least KNOW about the different popular perspectives there are in life so they'll learn how to deal with people at an earlier age.

I'd rather he learn about as many different viewpoints as possible so he can make a more informed decision about what he decides to believe.

Fuck it. I say leave it at the state level, not federal level to determine what to teach. If some rednecks in Arkansas want to teach creationism in school AS FACT instead of a theory... fucking more power to them. Everything will balance out. They'll start cranking out less and less phd's and eventually become more of a laughing stock. If that's how a state wants to handle it.. let them.. I'll just move my kids to a state where they have a curriculum I like.


Edited by BrAiN (01/07/08 09:29 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineeve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte Flag
Last seen: 24 days, 10 hours
Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists [Re: BrAiN]
    #7843412 - 01/07/08 12:48 PM (16 years, 25 days ago)

It's not about presentation of different viewpoints, it's about presentation of religious viewpoints becoming a precident for teaching only religious viewpoints.


--------------------
...or something







Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineeve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte Flag
Last seen: 24 days, 10 hours
Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists [Re: eve69]
    #7843414 - 01/07/08 12:49 PM (16 years, 25 days ago)

The amazing thing about stupid people is that they always think they understand what's going on even when they have it backwards.


--------------------
...or something







Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBrAiN
Art Fag
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists [Re: eve69]
    #7843416 - 01/07/08 12:50 PM (16 years, 25 days ago)

If you guys are just worried about a slippery slope than I can understand that, at least


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleArp
roving mycophagist
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists [Re: BrAiN]
    #7843475 - 01/07/08 01:08 PM (16 years, 25 days ago)

it's pretty meaningless to teach kids creationism in school. religion is a blind faith. science is theory based on observation that can be practically applied.

let them parents teach their kids about creationism.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSyle
Kenai Sigh
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/16/05
Posts: 6,678
Loc: WA
Last seen: 10 months, 26 days
Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists [Re: Arp]
    #7843480 - 01/07/08 01:10 PM (16 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Arp said:
it's pretty meaningless to teach kids creationism in school. religion is a blind faith. science is theory based on observation that can be practically applied.

let them parents teach their kids about creationism.




certain aspects of religion can be applicably applied too. define "applicable" too...what's applicable to one person may be different for another.


--------------------
https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleArp
roving mycophagist
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists [Re: Syle]
    #7843535 - 01/07/08 01:22 PM (16 years, 25 days ago)

Agnosticism is pretty much the same. Why reinvent the wheel? There's obviously an agenda behind "creationism".


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   North Spore Bulk Substrate   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Dutch president elect assasinated??? nugsarenice 636 2 06/26/02 05:50 AM
by nugsarenice
* Who is your favorite President and why?
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Innvertigo 6,290 75 02/09/02 02:14 PM
by Anonymous
* Want to become president? Take hostages! Phred 1,835 12 08/23/05 04:49 PM
by Los_Pepes
* Psychological effects of Presidency DoctorJ 914 9 05/19/04 03:28 PM
by d33p
* Don?t Think the Bush Campaign Stole This Election? Think Again ekomstop 5,493 10 11/06/04 08:23 AM
by ekomstop
* Hacking the presidency ekomstop 543 0 10/31/04 12:47 AM
by ekomstop
* Bad news for President Bush fft2 962 12 07/28/04 11:31 PM
by AhronZombi
* Suicide at ground zero over staged election results usefulidiot 368 2 11/08/04 09:17 PM
by usefulidiot

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
4,954 topic views. 0 members, 5 guests and 5 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.037 seconds spending 0.01 seconds on 15 queries.