Home | Community | Message Board

Original Seeds Store
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: North Spore Bulk Substrate   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale, Red Vein Kratom

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1
Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Ignatieff was wrong about Iraq
    #7836430 - 01/05/08 04:52 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Michael Ignatieff, a former professor at Harvard and contributing writer for the magazine, is a member of Canada’s Parliament and deputy leader of the Liberal Party.

The philosopher Isaiah Berlin once said that the trouble with academics and commentators is that they care more about whether ideas are interesting than whether they are true.

The unfolding catastrophe in Iraq has condemned the political judgment of a president. But it has also condemned the judgment of many others, myself included, who as commentators supported the invasion. Many of us believed, as an Iraqi exile friend told me the night the war started, that it was the only chance the members of his generation would have to live in freedom in their own country. How distant a dream that now seems.

Reach of War
Go to Complete Coverage »

Photographs by Benjamin Lowy for The New York Times
In Iraq, as everywhere, when leaders think that good intentions will guarantee good results, their view of the situation can become obstructed.
Having left an academic post at Harvard in 2005 and returned home to Canada to enter political life, I keep revisiting the Iraq debacle, trying to understand exactly how the judgments I now have to make in the political arena need to improve on the ones I used to offer from the sidelines. I’ve learned that acquiring good judgment in politics starts with knowing when to admit your mistakes.

The philosopher Isaiah Berlin once said that the trouble with academics and commentators is that they care more about whether ideas are interesting than whether they are true. Politicians live by ideas just as much as professional thinkers do, but they can’t afford the luxury of entertaining ideas that are merely interesting. They have to work with the small number of ideas that happen to be true and the even smaller number that happen to be applicable to real life. In academic life, false ideas are merely false and useless ones can be fun to play with. In political life, false ideas can ruin the lives of millions and useless ones can waste precious resources. An intellectual’s responsibility for his ideas is to follow their consequences wherever they may lead. A politician’s responsibility is to master those consequences and prevent them from doing harm.

I’ve learned that good judgment in politics looks different from good judgment in intellectual life. Among intellectuals, judgment is about generalizing and interpreting particular facts as instances of some big idea. In politics, everything is what it is and not another thing. Specifics matter more than generalities. Theory gets in the way.

The attribute that underpins good judgment in politicians is a sense of reality. “What is called wisdom in statesmen,” Berlin wrote, referring to figures like Roosevelt and Churchill, “is understanding rather than knowledge — some kind of acquaintance with relevant facts of such a kind that it enables those who have it to tell what fits with what; what can be done in given circumstances and what cannot, what means will work in what situations and how far, without necessarily being able to explain how they know this or even what they know.” Politicians cannot afford to cocoon themselves in the inner world of their own imaginings. They must not confuse the world as it is with the world as they wish it to be. They must see Iraq — or anywhere else — as it is.

As a former denizen of Harvard, I’ve had to learn that a sense of reality doesn’t always flourish in elite institutions. It is the street virtue par excellence. Bus drivers can display a shrewder grasp of what’s what than Nobel Prize winners. The only way any of us can improve our grasp of reality is to confront the world every day and learn, mostly from our mistakes, what works and what doesn’t. Yet even lengthy experience can fail us in life and in politics. Experience can imprison decision-makers in worn-out solutions while blinding them to the untried remedy that does the trick.

Having taught political science myself, I have to say the discipline promises more than it can deliver. In practical politics, there is no science of decision-making. The vital judgments a politician makes every day are about people: whom to trust, whom to believe and whom to avoid. The question of loyalty arises daily: Who will betray and who will stay true? Having good judgment in these matters, having a sound sense of reality, requires trusting some very unscientific intuitions about people.

A sense of reality is not just a sense of the world as it is, but as it might be. Like great artists, great politicians see possibilities others cannot and then seek to turn them into realities. To bring the new into being, a politician needs a sense of timing, of when to leap and when to remain still. Bismarck famously remarked that political judgment was the ability to hear, before anyone else, the distant hoofbeats of the horse of history.


--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


Edited by carbonhoots (01/05/08 04:53 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLuddite
I watch Fox News
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,946
Re: Ignatieff was wrong about Iraq [Re: carbonhoots]
    #7836496 - 01/05/08 05:07 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Compare that rant to these:

Operation Destroy Iraq and Steal its Oil
Canada's Complicity
--from an HPC pamphlet produced for the March 20 Day of Action


Jan 16, 1991

After undermining any possibility of a negotiated settlement, the US-led "coalition of the willing" launches the first Gulf War. Operation Desert Storm was the most intensive bombing campaign in history, using conventional bombs, cluster bombs, napalm and phosphorous bombs, fuel air explosives, and depleted uranium-tipped missiles. Iraq's two major cities were heavily bombed, and civilian infrastructure was deliberately targeted, including electricity, water purification, and sewage treatment plants, a deadly form of biological warfare.

It is estimated that 150,000 Iraqis died in the war. The impact was described as "near apocalyptic" by a post-war UN inspection team. Canada was one of the first and most enthusiastic members of the coalition. Canadian destroyers, supply ships and a squadron of C-F 18's with support personnel were all enlisted.


Jan 1990 - March 2003

"UN" Sanctions. Described as genocidal by former UN Humanitarian Chief, Denis Halliday, who resigned in protest, the 13 year embargo against war-shattered Iraq ranks as one of the most devastating atrocities against a civilian population since WWII. The US - claiming "dual-use" (civilian and military) potential for almost all goods coming into Iraq, embargoed virtually everything from medicine and food, to pencils and batteries. The blockade resulted in the deaths of over one million civilians, a majority of them children.

"We are destroying an entire society," declared Halliday. "It is as simple and terrifying as that."

Throughout this time of enforced starvation, the US and UK continued their illegal bombing raids. Canada, like the UK, backed it all the way.


Feb 15, 2003

10 million people in 600 cities take to the streets to demonstrate against an impending US/UK invasion of Iraq. They are the largest anti-war protests in history - keeping many governments, including Canada's, officially out of the war.



March 20, 2003

US-led forces illegally invade Iraq, with no Security Council resolution, launching "Operation Iraqi Freedom," one of the most unpopular and fraudulent wars in US history. The war was claimed to be a response to Saddam's non-compliance with UN resolutions relating to weapons inspections and to his alleged weapons of mass destruction. It was also sold as part of "war against terrorism" - despite the fact that the CIA could find no links between Al-Qaeida and Saddam Hussein. CBS reported that within hours after the 9-11 attacks, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld told his aides to come up with plans to strike Iraq. Once again the US resorted to massive air strikes -including cluster bombs and uranium tipped missiles - to attack a devastated, disarmed, and starving country, killing thousands of civilians, destroying infrastructure, and piling rubble on rubble.

Once the bombs stopped falling, new military bases were constructed, the oil fields were secured, a US led puppet regime was established, and billions in reconstruction contracts were awarded, primarily to US firms with connections to the Bush administration.

Canada officially stayed out of the war, but was in fact the fourth largest contributor to the attack on Iraq after the US, the UK and Australia, ahead of most members of Bush's coalition.

Three Canadian warships equipped with surface to air missiles and anti-submarine capability were escorting the US fleet that fired Tomahawk missiles into Iraqi cities. Canadian officers occupied offices of CENTCOM in Doha Qatar, planning the logistical details of escorting these ships.

US troop transport planes carried the invading army over Canadian air space thanks to the Canadian governments offer of over-flight privileges and refueling at the US Air Force at Gander airport. Canada was one of the countries on Colin Powell's list of countries that did not want to be mentioned in regard to their support for the war.


March 20, 2004

One year after the invasion, Iraq is in ruins. The illegal occupation continues. Insurgents launch daily attacks against Americans and any Iraqis seen as collaborators. Unexploded ordnance from cluster bombs continue to kill civilians. The rate of civilian deaths was such that by December the US prohibited Iraqi health ministry authorities from counting the dead. Hospitals are in worse repair than during the sanctions. Efforts by the UNEP to study the levels of depleted uranium radiation remain blocked by the US administration. The oil fields however are secure.

Canada is currently spending $10 million for the RCMP to train Iraqi police in Jordan. This training represents a defacto acceptance of the illegal takeover. These police will effectively operate as functionaries of the quisling administration running Iraq, providing security for the illegal occupiers, and prime targets for insurgents. Already 600 Iraqi police have been killed. With even greater cynicism, Paul Martin has expressed interest in Canadian firms bidding on Iraqi reconstruction contracts, a "privilege" granted by Bush at a meeting with Martin in January. Not only is this a crass attempt to exploit a major war crime, it is also illegal. Iraq's Constitution outlaws the privatization of key state assets, and bars foreigners from owning Iraqi firms. The Hague Regulations of 1907 state that an occupying power must respect "unless absolutely prevented, the laws in force in the country". Canadian involvement in reconstruction contracts would violate international law and contravene Canada's official stance of non- involvement in the US-led invasion.

http://www.hfxpeace.chebucto.org/_html/iraq_history.html

-----------------------------------------

Canadian government backs assault
on Iraq, while ‘talking peace’

BY JOHN STEELE
TORONTO--As the U.S. army is fighting its way into Baghdad, the facts about Ottawa’s real role in the imperialist slaughter are becoming clearer.

On March 17, the Liberal Party government announced that, while totally supporting Washington’s goals in the region, it refused to join the so-called "coalition of the willing," and refused to send additional troops to the Mideast, because the war is not sanctioned by the United Nations Security Council. Ottawa’s actions, however, show that Canada’s capitalist rulers not only support the U.S.-led assault, but are part and parcel of the military effort to conquer Iraq.

"Ironically, the Canadians indirectly provide more support for us in Iraq than most of the 46 countries that are fully supporting us," U.S. ambassador to Canada Paul Cellucci stated in a recent speech, criticizing Ottawa for its diplomatic opposition to the war.

Currently, 31 Canadian soldiers are serving on exchange programs with U.S. and British forces. Six of them are in Iraq, one operating with a British regiment of military engineers that is assisting in the siege of Iraq’s second largest city.

About 1,300 Canadian personnel on three frigates are part of a multinational task force in the Arab-Persian Gulf. These vessels and a dozen other warships are under the command of Canada’s Commodore Roger Girouard, who reports to U.S. Vice-Admiral Timothy Keating. The fleet protects U.S. aircraft carriers, which serve as "platforms" for Washington’s air war against Iraq. They are also screening passengers in the Arab-Persian Gulf, looking for Iraqi military officials and government leaders to be turned over to U.S. authorities if caught. According to La Presse, this fleet also "escorted" all U.S. and British ships carrying troops and war materiel to Kuwait.

For months, Canadian military planners have been working with the U.S. Central Command, directing operations in Iraq. The 25 military planners from Canada are working at the U.S. forward command post in Qatar in the Persian Gulf. They have taken part in determining war strategy and are now helping to run operations from the inside.

Canadian forces are also part of crews on Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) aircraft, which are the nerve centers that guide fighter jets and bombers so they can deliver their payloads.

By contributing 1,000–2,000 troops to the imperialist forces occupying Afghanistan, Ottawa has freed up key U.S. logistical and military assets for redeployment in Iraq.

Washington is Canada’s biggest military customer. Canadian military production is thoroughly integrated into the U.S. military machine.

U.S. military aircraft carrying troops bound for Iraq regularly stop to refuel and change crews in Newfoundland.

On March 26, Foreign Affairs Minister William Graham expressed Ottawa’s support for Washington’s goal of overthrowing the Iraqi government, and wished the U.S. a "swift victory." Five days later, Defense Minister John McCallum, speaking in Parliament, praised the Canadian military personnel in Iraq and the Arab-Persian Gulf. "We are behind them 100 percent," he said. "We thank them for putting their lives on the line." Ottawa also supports an international tribunal to try Iraqi President Saddam Hussein and other government officials for "crimes against humanity," if they are captured alive. On March 26, all parties in Parliament supported a resolution put forward by the right-wing opposition, the Canadian Alliance, on setting up such a tribunal.

Ottawa’s posturing under attack
As a smaller imperialist power neighboring the United States--which is both its main imperialist competitor and trading partner--Canada’s ruling class stands in Washington’s camp in the drive to take Baghdad and install a U.S. protectorate. Ottawa’s drive to war against working people abroad is an extension of the intensifying assault on the rights of workers at home--such as the use of so-called "antiterrorist" laws to secretly jail immigrants as threats to "national security." The government’s actions are determined by the unfolding world capitalist depression, and intensifying interimperialist competition for resources, raw material, and markets.

Ottawa’s refusal to officially endorse the war reflects the efforts of Canada’s capitalist rulers to maintain the carefully constructed illusion of Canada’s role in world politics as a "peacekeeper," working through the United Nations. This foreign policy framework, put in place at the end of the 1950s, has well served the interests of Canada’s ruling rich for almost five decades. So too has the government’s anti-American brand of Canadian nationalism, which is used to whip up support for its foreign policy initiatives and mask the class character of its participation in imperialist wars of plunder.

Canadian nationalism is also used to mask the class divisions in Canadian society. It’s used to masquerade Ottawa’s anti-working class domestic policies, aimed at increasing the capitalists’ profit rates, by slashing the social wage won by workers and farmers in struggle, and weakening union and other workers’ rights.

In this context, a minority of the ruling class is calling for an open declaration of support for the war against Iraq, and the sending of more of Canada’s armed forces into the conflict.

The Canadian Alliance has called for the sending of a full contingent of Canadian forces to Iraq.

Alberta Premier Ralph Klein sent a letter to U.S. Ambassador Cellucci thanking Washington for its leadership "in the war on terrorism and tyranny."

"We need to stand with our friends and allies in times of trouble," said Ontario premier Ernest Eves. "The people of Iraq should be free, not oppressed and threatened by a dictatorial regime.... While I respect the decision of the prime minister, I believe his position is wrong."

An April 2 editorial in the Globe and Mail titled "Hiding the Troops" states that "Canada has soldiers involved in a war that Canada opposes.... The soldiers’ actions aren’t shameful at all, but the government’s actions have been."

"Where our government has failed, our troops make us proud," declared the Toronto Sun tabloid editors April 4. "We salute them for their resolve and dedication to duty. For showing what their political masters lack."

Prowar demonstrations
Encouraged by these declarations, pro-war forces organized demonstrations in a number of cities calling for open support to the war and criticizing Ottawa’s position. Thousands turned out in Ottawa, Winnipeg, Red Deer, Calgary, and Vancouver the March 29–30 weekend. In Toronto, 800 prowar demonstrators took to the streets April 4, in a noon-hour "Friends of America" demonstration addressed by the Ontario premier.

Despite the march to war and prowar campaign of all sectors of Canada’s ruling rich, workers fighting to defend their rights are showing they are not willing to subordinate their interests to those of the bosses and their government.

On April 1, unions representing 40,000 Air Canada workers, for example, rejected demands by the airline bosses for a 22 percent across-the-board wage cut, a wage freeze, and an end to layoff protection to "save" the company, Canada’s major airline. The airline bosses, who have asked for government support, then filed for bankruptcy protection in the courts.

John Steele is a meat packer and a member of the United Food and Commercial Workers.

http://www.themilitant.com/2003/6713/671352.html


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Ignatieff was wrong about Iraq [Re: carbonhoots]
    #7836694 - 01/05/08 06:02 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

carbonhoots said:


The unfolding catastrophe in Iraq




:rofl2:
Quote:

Published: August 5, 2007




Way to keep on top of current events there hootie.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinexFrockx
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 15 hours
Re: Ignatieff was wrong about Iraq [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7836821 - 01/05/08 06:36 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

How many civilians do you think that we've killed there zappa?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Ignatieff was wrong about Iraq [Re: xFrockx]
    #7836897 - 01/05/08 06:58 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

US forces collaterally? Probably less than 5,000. On purpose? Probably less than a thousand. Due to assorted murdering assholes? 75,000. From this website:
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysis/numbers/2007/

Quote:

Deaths of non-combatants such as civilian bystanders killed in firefights and other attacks involving US-led Coalition military forces rose from 544–623 in 2006 to 868–1,326 in 2007.



and
Quote:

Civilian deaths directly attributable to US forces alone (ie, not involving any other combatants) increased steeply from 394–434 reported in 2006 to 669–756 in 2007.




I would say that 90% of any civilian casualties in Iraq have been due to either the direct murder by deadenders who don't yet realize that 'hootie and the media have failed to bring them victory or by those same deadenders using civilians as shields. The Iraqi people "thank" 'hootie for encouraging the "insurgents" torturing and murdering them and giving those same "insurgents" hope that 'hootie and his ilk could force our withdrawal and thus allow them to slaughter at will.


Edited by zappaisgod (01/05/08 07:00 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinexFrockx
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 15 hours
Re: Ignatieff was wrong about Iraq [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7836944 - 01/05/08 07:12 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

"'hootie and his ilk"

The Blowfish?



So do you think that if we left Iraq that Al-Quaeda would slaughter civilians at will? Where's the will?

I think the point you are missing is that the problem of civilian deaths is not one caused by "insurgents" but rather, one caused by war between various sects of Islam (our guys get caught in the crossfire, or are directly attacked as a means for either side to show their power), as it has been, even when Saddam was in power. There may be trouble in Iraq, but its not with any outside force, at least not predominantly.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Ignatieff was wrong about Iraq [Re: xFrockx]
    #7836974 - 01/05/08 07:22 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Carbonhoots, the original poster.

I think if we left immediately there would be much more bloodshed. When all is said and done I believe that the loss of life will be less than it would have been had we never gotten in. By a long shot. This is, of course, completely unprovable one way or the other.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinexFrockx
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 15 hours
Re: Ignatieff was wrong about Iraq [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7836999 - 01/05/08 07:27 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Definitely, I would agree. I am thorughly against this war, but I know its too late now to pull out. The problem is that we don't know if staying there is helping anything either, aside from just forcing people to comply.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblebmiles
artist
Male

Registered: 12/31/07
Posts: 2,299
Loc: on the left side
Re: Ignatieff was wrong about Iraq [Re: xFrockx]
    #7837006 - 01/05/08 07:29 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

it's never too late to pull out.


--------------------
Never go with a hippy to a second location.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Ignatieff was wrong about Iraq [Re: bmiles]
    #7837017 - 01/05/08 07:33 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

It can definitely be too early


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1

Shop: North Spore Bulk Substrate   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale, Red Vein Kratom


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Iraq: It's Beginning to Smell a Lot Like Vietnam Zahid 800 2 10/23/03 09:31 AM
by Xlea321
* Iraq isn't another Vietnam
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
Xlea321 6,606 89 05/28/04 08:12 AM
by CJay
* oppose US war in iraq Lallafa 2,204 12 09/12/02 08:55 PM
by Bullfrog1
* Bush Says US Must Stay in Iraq for Long Haul
( 1 2 all )
Zahid 1,344 21 11/02/03 09:05 PM
by monoamine
* US running scared of Iraq elections
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Xlea321 7,134 77 02/05/04 06:07 PM
by mntlfngrs
* George Bush In Iraq
( 1 2 3 all )
pattern 3,723 57 12/04/03 06:43 PM
by Phred
* The Deadly Truth of Imperialism
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
Eric 4,862 81 11/06/03 06:36 PM
by Anonymous
* Tens of Bush Iraq War Supporters Take to the Streets mabus 1,828 17 03/16/04 07:39 PM
by Strumpling

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
883 topic views. 0 members, 1 guests and 5 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.023 seconds spending 0.007 seconds on 14 queries.