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Anonymous

If you believe in the devil (or demons)...
    #783620 - 07/29/02 09:56 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

If you believe in the devil, satan or whatever you want to call it/him/her (a supreme evil being), please tell us why in your own words, without quoting any religious texts.

Of course if the forces of evil are considered by you to be more democratic and there is no particular head honcho of the underworld but you do believe in demons, please tell us why in your own words, without quoting any religious texts.

I am not referring to the symbolic meanings behind the beliefs nor to any earthly demonic figures such as Hitler, Stalin, Janet Reno or The Teletubbies, but those entities which have the nature of deities, evil deities...


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: ]
    #783638 - 07/29/02 10:08 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

If there are such things as "evil" beings, it would be logical to assume that there must be a /most evil/ being.


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: ]
    #783651 - 07/29/02 10:17 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

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Anonymous

Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: World Spirit]
    #783665 - 07/29/02 10:25 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

So are you going to take a crack at an explanation or are you just going to attempt to insult me?


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: ]
    #783683 - 07/29/02 10:32 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Emphasis on attempt... that was a really lame burn.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: World Spirit]
    #783704 - 07/29/02 10:41 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Enter, I just noticed something. You stated, "If you are so numb to believe there is no Light-Bearer at the end of the tunnel of good..." Which end of the tunnel are you referring to? Doesn't 'Lucifer' mean 'light bearer' or 'light-bringing?'


Edited by Evolving (07/29/02 10:42 AM)


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: World Spirit]
    #783710 - 07/29/02 10:43 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

You should be here -> .

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: MAIA]
    #783729 - 07/29/02 10:52 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: World Spirit]
    #783764 - 07/29/02 11:17 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Isn't ambiguity beautiful?


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: ]
    #783798 - 07/29/02 11:34 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I am more interested in knowing why you asked this question.

Could you state your reason(s)?

After that, I or others might contribute something.

Cheers,


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Anonymous

Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: ]
    #783837 - 07/29/02 11:54 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Curiosity.


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: World Spirit]
    #783921 - 07/29/02 12:39 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Put yourself as one of the crowd and at the same time listen to yourself preaching, that's a form of psychanalisis, it may answer some questions by defying subjectivity.
It isn't a compliment or a jab, just a way to make you think a little .

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: ]
    #784049 - 07/29/02 01:35 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I am more interested in knowing why you asked this question.

Yes, but I am REALLY interested in why you want to know why...


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlineinternetraver
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Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: Swami]
    #784098 - 07/29/02 02:05 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Since no one else want's to answer your question, I will.

I believe evil has to exist because without WRONG, there would be no RIGHT. without wrong or right, there would be no CHOICE, without choice there would be no FREEDOM to choose. and without freedom to choose, there would be no LEARNING. Weather it is learning from choosing wrong, or learning from choosing right. without learning, there would be no LIFE. After all, EVIL backwards is LIVE. choose wisley.........


Man, after reading that I realized I've tripped WAY to many times.........................


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Anonymous

Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: internetraver]
    #784175 - 07/29/02 02:49 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I can see your reasoning and I have encountered similar explanations to justify reincarnation - life is actually a learning experience where our souls are sent or choose to go in order to learn. However, I wanted to hear from those who believe in a devil or demons? Do you? If so, why? Don't humans provide enough evil to go around? Have you ever encountered what you perceived to be a demon while not in an altered state of consciousness or dreaming? If so, have you ever been diagnosed with a condition which can be said by some to explain such perceptions?


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: ]
    #784205 - 07/29/02 03:03 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)



--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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Anonymous

Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: ]
    #784384 - 07/29/02 04:22 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I'm afraid mere curiosity is an insufficient reason for me to share any information.

But thanks for asking.


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Anonymous

Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: Swami]
    #784404 - 07/29/02 04:27 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Yes, but I am REALLY interested in why you want to know why...

Now Swami, you know that I am extremely interested in why you want to know why I want to know......


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OfflineDroz
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Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: ]
    #784505 - 07/29/02 05:19 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

"Truly, if there is evil in the world, it lies within the heart of mankind." - Edward D. Morrison

Do other animals experience evil? Something we may never know.


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Evolution of Time.


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Anonymous

Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: ]
    #784695 - 07/29/02 06:45 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

C'mon, FreakQlibrium shared his experience (via a link).

Curiosity is the only reason I have, I am curious to know the reasoning behind beliefs. I myself have seen demons but the event occured under the spell of an 'evil' cactus. I assumed that the perception of them was a manifestation triggered by the intense negative physical sensations I was experiencing at the time. I was able to control them by recognizing this and then hastily took a full dose of Meclizine HCl. After this anti-nausea medication took effect I was able to enjoy the waves of pleasant fascination that overtook me.


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: ]
    #784724 - 07/29/02 06:57 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

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Anonymous

Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: World Spirit]
    #784729 - 07/29/02 07:01 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

An anti-nausea medication (like Dramamine). It is a generic so I don't know a brand name.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: internetraver]
    #784749 - 07/29/02 07:08 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

After all, EVIL backwards is LIVE.

And GOOD backwards is DOOG. What is your point?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: Swami]
    #784755 - 07/29/02 07:11 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

DOG backwards is GOD.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: ]
    #784756 - 07/29/02 07:12 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah, but BOB backwards is still plain ole BOB. And Swami backwards is "I'm a ws." - hey, that can't be right!


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The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (07/29/02 07:14 PM)


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: Swami]
    #784767 - 07/29/02 07:16 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: ]
    #784779 - 07/29/02 07:20 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Read 'Hostage to the Devil: The Possession and Exorcism of Five Living Americans' by Malachi Martin. This is the book that the film 'The exorcist' was based upon. This book changed my notion of evil from the Privatio Boni (absence of goodness) notion, to one of an active infernal intelligence that moves in space-time. One of the possessed speaks of an infernal hierarchy that is more detailed than a medieval grimoire. At the end of the book is the Roman catholic Rite of Exorcism that must be approved by the Vatican before its implementation. I'm telling you, Satan, Shaitan, Mara, Maat, Pezuzu...you name the culture...there is a recognition that evil exists, is alive and intentional, and is the enemy of human beings.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: ]
    #784830 - 07/29/02 07:40 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

At its best, the "devil" is a cleaver metaphorical entity that sybolizes and helps to explain several aspects of the human psyche that are difficult for a normal, "innocent" human to understand. At its worst, it is used as an excuse for selfishness, narssistic behavior, and sociopathy.

For instance, as society transitions from religion to science, the things that we used to blame on the devil are being blamed on genes. Research has supposedly been done on the "smoking gene", the "alcoholism gene", and the "homosexuality gene". (as a biochemist, i find it hard to believe that credible scientists have even studied such absurd claims, but thats what i see on the nightly news). Psychology has somehow been left in the proverbial dust. I guess people just dont want to believe that they are in control of these urges.


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:egyptian:


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Anonymous

Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: Catalysis]
    #784951 - 07/29/02 08:35 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

"(as a biochemist, i find it hard to believe that credible scientists have even studied such absurd claims, but thats what i see on the nightly news)."

Ever hear of grant money?

Cheers,


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: ]
    #784977 - 07/29/02 08:47 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

LOL, now i know where the government got money to study the use of amphetamines for mind control.


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:egyptian:


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: Droz]
    #785732 - 07/30/02 08:37 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Do other animals experience evil? Something we may never know.

I think we already know. "Evil" is a word created by humans to describe a concept that is also created by humans. "Good" and "Evil" are only linguistic tags human beings (and humans only) place upon each other in order to JUDGE. Just 100% subjective descriptors. My friend's pastor might say "drugs are evil," while my friend might say "Man, your skateboard is EVIL!"

All evil is is what any indivudual human decides is "evil". Other animals aren't evolved to the point where they can waste time debating the meaning of subjective labels.

The traditional definition of evil (malicious, wicked, cruel, etc.) is just something made up by humans. "Evil" cannot motivate any being; "evil" is just how the being's actions are described. Motivations for "evil acts" can be anything (greed, instinct, security) A wolf that runs off with a baby is not evil. We don't know why it did that. Humans will of course make their judgement and call it evil because it caused harm. The animal would not understand this. It was just hungry. Humans might describe Satan as "pure evil." Evil cannot exist without motivations driving the decidedly evil behavior. That is why the idea of some "supremely evil" being is utter bullshit to me. Does the devil wake up every morning and go "Ok, what should I be evil about today? Should I push an old lady down the stairs, kill some dolphins? hmmm." It's all BS. Evil is just a word made for judging others.



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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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Anonymous

Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #785842 - 07/30/02 09:29 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

So... evil only exists within the realm of human judgement of human relations (other organisms - microbes, grizzly bears are not evil no matter how much damage they do to humans). Do you deny that within human relations there are any actions that we can judge as evil? Would you judge the actions of Hitler, Stalin or Jeffrey Dahlmer (sp) as evil or do you contend even these cannot be judged?


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OfflineQuantumMeltdown
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Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: ]
    #785883 - 07/30/02 09:50 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

NOW LIVE backwards is EVIL WON !! shit!


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-QuantumMeltdown

Total abstinence is so excellent a thing that it cannot be carried to too great an extent. In my passion for it I even carry it so far as to totally abstain from total abstinence itself.
  -Mark Twain

"The time has come the walrus said, little oysters  hide their heads, my Twain of thought is loosely bound I guess its time to Mark this down, Be good and you will be lonesome
Be lonesome and you will be free
Live a lie and you will live to regret it
That's what livin' is to me
That's what livin' is to me"
Jimmy Buffett


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OfflineDroz
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Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: ]
    #785986 - 07/30/02 11:00 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Of course we could judge those actions to be evil. But say some animal eats all of this other animal and they become extinct. Would that be evil? So i agree with CyberChump. Words like evil used to describe certain acts are just words. Evil isn't it?


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Evolution of Time.


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Invisiblebuttonion
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Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: QuantumMeltdown]
    #786017 - 07/30/02 11:19 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Woah... that is actually pretty trippy.


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: ]
    #786046 - 07/30/02 11:30 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

So... evil only exists within the realm of human judgement of human relations (other organisms - microbes, grizzly bears are not evil no matter how much damage they do to humans). Do you deny that within human relations there are any actions that we can judge as evil?

Absolutely. You can judge anything you want as evil. You can say the guy in the red Trans Am is evil because he's cutting everyone off. That's my point; that "evil" is only ever one person's judgement. Nobody or thing is just bad for the sake of being bad, but the word evil is supposed to describe such a thing.

Would you judge the actions of Hitler, Stalin or Jeffrey Dahlmer (sp) as evil or do you contend even these cannot be judged?

Sure they can be judged. But that is different than understanding their motivations. Hitler is described as evil, but he's only evil if there is someone there to judge him based on his actions. His destrictive actions were a result of his own twisted beliefs, not any inherent generic "badness."

In other words, people don't do bad things because they're evil, they're "evil" because they do bad things.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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Offlinefrogsheath
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Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #786774 - 07/30/02 06:22 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

There's good and bad things about America. There's good and bad things about everything. We are unfortunate (or maybe fortunate) to be at that crossroads were we have to prove to everyone on this earth that WE are good. It's up to America and her allies to do that. I believe in Satan. I don't really think he (or she) is ALL that bad. We must figure THAT out too (unfortunately). That ain't gonna' be easy. America represents Satan right now to many people. We need to do something about that. Freedom, Democracy and all that is good, but we must show compassion for the downtrodden peoples of the earth cuz' they don't like our attitudes "livin' it up" so much
as we have. Freedom --it ain't cheap! America needs a new moral majority to cover our asses (and everyone elses perhaps). If there is a Satan, it's working overtime on the American people --to keep them complacent in this time of dire need for action. It's happening, but a bit too slow I'm afraid. My own contribution is to practice anti-consumptionism --except for beer and pot and mushrooms.


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OfflineTannis
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Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: ]
    #787854 - 07/31/02 09:25 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

As I've said before in posts, I am an empath (that is I feel the feelings of others). I also pick up or sense "forces" both man-made and natural. Some "forces" have a form of "life" and consciousness. I sense and sometimes see these forces. I've seen demons, angels, "ghosts" and the like......

Maybe I'm just a wild kid with a crazy imagination, but I have friends who also confirm the things I sense or see. It is also very interesting that there have been times that I see a demon and instruct it to leave......suddenly a "problem" in everyday life, or an illness.....just "coincidentally" also goes away.

Also, I have never met Satan, but he did send me a message once through another demon. It hit me like a video tape that had been wired into my brain. In this "tape" Satan lampooned Christ on the cross and with a pout, asked why I was persecuting him.....then he laughed and the "tape" ended.


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Offlinefrogsheath
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Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: ]
    #793044 - 08/02/02 06:37 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Where are the revolutionaries? Satan. You'd think it would raise SOMETHING. Nice post EVOLVING, by the way. Am I stating the obvious or just way off the mark? America is spearheading our descent into the abyss. Is this not the case? What do we have to look forward to? Other planets? Really? Tell me wise brave shroomerites. I have faith in you. Am I being arrogant to say that America has this position in history? Who is in control right now? This system is DOOMED!!! You know it. It must change. WE have the power goddammit!! If there IS a devil, it's in our hands motherfuckers!!!! Do something. Assasinating our "leaders" wouldn't be a bad place to start. There are better ways though. PLEASE, wake up and lead the human race to utopia. America has the power to move us in that direction. Paradise is in our grasp. So is extinction. So be it.


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Offlinefrogsheath
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Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: frogsheath]
    #793307 - 08/02/02 09:03 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

2 hours have past since I posted my urgent call and NO ONE has responded. WTF???? Are we that complacent? There is nothing really evil about the dominant government/culture on this earth then? It's just business as usual. O.K.. I'm just a freak. The system will work then, is that it? You really think so? No doubts? The world will simply give in to a capitalist/corporate system and everything will be o.k.? Then it must be God. I don't think so.
Peace
Eric


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: frogsheath]
    #793424 - 08/02/02 10:13 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Should we just let nature work its course on the system... or is it necessary to give it just enough of a kick to send it over the edge?


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineShroomalicious
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Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: ]
    #793613 - 08/03/02 03:36 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Excellent question...

I believe in the Devil for a lot of reasons, but I "know" he exsists from a few experiences I have had with it.

First of let me say one thing...a lot of people dismiss the idea of a single entity know as Satan and instead refer to it as a mass of negative energy...but what is ANY entity rather than a mass of energy? I think both ideas of it as a mass of negative energy and as a single entity are true.

I believe there is a single, intelligent, communicable force whom you might call Satan because I have been in his (you might say) "physical" company. Satan not only has an Ego, he practically is an Ego. One day as a boy I set out to communicate with Satan, I challenged him and he arrived with the power of all evil. It was a watershed experience in my life...I had no fear, for I knew that love was stronger than evil and evil's ONLY power is deception, and from that stems others. Not being decieved I was literally too much for the Devil and my face off with him was short and one-sided.

Anyways, that is, more or less all I will say on that experience...I believe in the Devil because I met it...it is not as big and as scary as some might think. Although beware because his deciet is impecibly crafty and his face is ever changing.


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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Offlinefrogsheath
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Registered: 02/18/02
Posts: 915
Loc: Chicago, Illinois U.S.A.
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Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: Sclorch]
    #793626 - 08/03/02 04:01 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Interesting question you raise Sclorch. I think the latter option is our best hope and that requires a revolution in government. The little guys (like me) have to quit being complacent, get involved in local government and reform it. We're on a course for disaster right now. We're gonna' hit the rocky rapids. That doesn't mean we have to capsize though. I say Think Globally, Act Locally. As for Satan, don't let it discourage. That's how it ruins us.


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Invisibleshroomerylurker
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Registered: 06/23/02
Posts: 408
Re: If you believe in the devil (or demons)... [Re: frogsheath]
    #793825 - 08/03/02 08:23 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Nope, I don't think there is a 'devil', sorry. Evil is just a subjective way to justify one's actions. You can't make something good or inherently right if there is no inherently wrong or evil. Just a tool people use to control other people. The 'devil' is just a character in some mythology. I mean really? Is there a Poseidon? Why is it any less of a question? Because that character comes from mythology that is commonly denounced.
I mean somepeople think taking mushrooms is evil, why because it is, it says so in this book. Why is the book always right, because it is.
And I think whoever said it is right, there can be no 'good' without 'evil. I think people make up good and evil in there own heads because they need there too be.


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