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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 648
I am convinced, 50/50 buffered to 8 is the best. I admit defeat!
    #7833452 - 01/04/08 08:28 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

"Peat moss, although lacking in nutrition, is resplendent with mushroom stimulating bacteria and yeasts".
-Paul Stamets

That's all the reason anybody needs to use peat.


Edited by Captain Cubensis (01/05/08 05:10 PM)


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Offlinexhooliganx
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7833476 - 01/04/08 08:35 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

are you refering to 50/50+ (peat/verm ph adjusted)?


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: xhooliganx]
    #7833502 - 01/04/08 08:42 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Yeah, why bother with the peat, it's one less ingredient to buy, and you don't have to adjust the pH, which means no lime, so it's two ingredients you could cut out.

I am sure there is a very important reason for the peat being there, I just can't seem to find anyone who knows.

Why not use wood mulch and verm?


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Offlinexhooliganx
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7833539 - 01/04/08 08:51 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

the peat works well in the casing layer because of it's specific lack of nutrients. it also gives a better texture to the casing layer than just straight verm and allowes an even colonization without much overlay problems.

the ph adjustment is actualy quite simple and you can use well known general ratio's. considering a large bag of peat and a decent size bag of lime could be had for less than 20$ and could be picked up at the same store that you're getting your verm from(well true in my case I don't know what other peoples scenarios are like) if you really wanted simplicity there seems to be good results from miracle grow moisture control. just open the bag add water and pasturize(i think blutjager doesn't even pasturize. or maybe tha's his coir that he doesn't bother with)

I opt for the 50/50+ because i've had best results with it and I don't like taking shortcuts


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: xhooliganx]
    #7833628 - 01/04/08 09:11 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Still, for all that trouble you would think someone here knows what exactly the casing would lose if peat and lime, and oyster shell, and gypsum were eliminated by leaving out the peat and using no pH no nutrient verm?

In fact, t used to be a link to the original PF master himself Fanaticus suggesting leaving out the peat in casing altogether because there seemed to be no difference.

Unfortunately the site is down.


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Offlinelaten
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7833779 - 01/04/08 09:58 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

It is a non-nutritive layer that helps maintain moisture for the mycelium. Its like when you roll your cakes, except its fluffier and holds moisture better.


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: laten]
    #7833888 - 01/04/08 10:33 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

laten said:
It is a non-nutritive layer that helps maintain moisture for the mycelium. Its like when you roll your cakes, except its fluffier and holds moisture better.




Peat is plant based, which means it's nutritive.


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OfflineBanjoMojo
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7834011 - 01/04/08 11:08 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Just because it's nutritive for something doesn't mean it's nutritive for mycelium.


--------------------
:firefox: If God is inside us like some people say, He'd better like burritos 'cause that's what he's getting. :firefox:

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Offlinexhooliganx
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7834035 - 01/04/08 11:15 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

peat is not nutritious to mushroom mycelium. like I said it provides a better environment for colonization becase of texture and how airy it is. you need even colonization w/o overlay for an even pinset which will give you large even crops and more mushrooms. it also provides a great microclimate for the mushrooms to grow from allowing less than optimal humidity levels. crediting PF for saying it's good to leave peat out is near pointless. as far as I know he didn't pioneer much other than brf cakes. people in that era also thought that you could never grow mushrooms on coir and it was worthless as a substrate. basicly straight verm is pretty much the worst choice as a casing layer.


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Edited by xhooliganx (01/04/08 11:38 PM)


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: xhooliganx]
    #7834128 - 01/04/08 11:51 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Like perlite, horticultural vermiculite is permanent, clean, odorless, nontoxic and sterile. It will not deteriorate, turn moldy or rot. The pH of vermiculite is essentially neutral (7.0-9.5) but owing to the presence of associated carbonate compounds, the reaction is normally alkaline. It also will vary (become more alkaline) with changes in processing techniques and time, and with the presence of moisture.

-Home Harvest Garden Supply


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Invisiblesimplemachine
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7834362 - 01/05/08 01:48 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

I have never adjusted the pH of the 50/50 mix I use for cubes. Verm and peat, its as simple as that, and I don't have trich problems. I haven't done the side by side comparison of straight verm v. 50/50, so I can't say for myself what the comparison may be, but I doubt that a 1 to 1 comparison would give any definitive results, since there are so many variables at play.

From where I stand, the only PITA with peat is that its dusty and messy, at least my brand.


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Invisibleshaggydogman
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: simplemachine]
    #7834382 - 01/05/08 02:17 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

One advantage not mentioned yet is the ease of judging the water content of the casing.
Visually it's quite hard to tell how dry or wet verm is.
Peat based casings on the other hand are much much easier to judge.


--------------------
Rye -- WBS | Grain LC -- G2G | Bulk -- Monotub | 50/50 -- Late Casing -- A Pinning Strategy
Disclaimer: My opinion is subject to change at short notice subject to but not limited by new information and knowledge being made available.


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Offlinexhooliganx
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7834424 - 01/05/08 03:02 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Captain Cubensis said:
Like perlite, horticultural vermiculite is permanent, clean, odorless, nontoxic and sterile. It will not deteriorate, turn moldy or rot. The pH of vermiculite is essentially neutral (7.0-9.5) but owing to the presence of associated carbonate compounds, the reaction is normally alkaline. It also will vary (become more alkaline) with changes in processing techniques and time, and with the presence of moisture.

-Home Harvest Garden Supply



I'm not sure what relevence that has to our conversation, it seems like with all of the explained reasons why the 50/50 mix is better you still don't want to accept that it is better. I would recommend mgmc, jiffy mix, or plain potting soil over straight verm any day of the week if you don't want the "hastle" of something that's as easy as 50/50+.


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Invisible04281969
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: xhooliganx]
    #7834796 - 01/05/08 09:22 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Can anybody report on the difference between doing a dunk and roll into vermiculite vs. 50/50+ mix?

Other than messing up the perlite.


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OfflineanarchOi
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: 04281969]
    #7834839 - 01/05/08 09:44 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

you would lose nothing except for possible fluff
i've been looking for the answer to this same question for quite awhile

remember; cubensis do not need to be cased.

the general reason i've found for using peat is that it keeps the casing from becoming too compact when spraying for rehydration

if you don't go verm happy, you won't have a problem with compaction

and am i not right to say that it would be strain/sub-strain/culture specific as to whether or not the mycelium performs better in a certain textured casing?


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: anarchOi]
    #7834882 - 01/05/08 10:05 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Peat is plant based, which means it's nutritive.





Wrong. Flat out wrong.

You seriously need to read and study and not start a thread for every single question that pops into your head. The members can help answer what you don't understand AFTER study, but this isn't a place to learn everything.

Commercial growers use buffered peat and NO verm as casing. Their income depends on growing as many mushrooms as they can for the money they spend to grow them. Do you really think a multi-billion dollar industry is just throwing money away?

Read, search and study. ALL the questions you're starting these threads lately for are already answered in detail, and available by a simple search, which is faster than typing a question. Those who know these answers are sick and tired of typing the same stuff hundreds of times, over and over again, and aren't going to do it anymore. Those who don't know the answer will make something up just to take a wild guess, and the disinformation continues. . .
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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OfflineanarchOi
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7834922 - 01/05/08 10:21 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

i'm sorry that this is so frustrating for you RR
i'm not sure why you even do what you do to be honest, but we all appreciate it

so is the reason peat is better simply just that peat is better?
this gets more confusing all the time

RR
I'm not sure who you were addressing about the misinformation
but it seems to me alot like people are digging up misinformation as well as facts because they don't know how to work the search function to its fullest
and that's why it continues


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: anarchOi]
    #7834941 - 01/05/08 10:26 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Unfortunately, the search engine will return threads where noobs were stating 'what if?' as fact, so you'll find all sorts of wrong information. Perhaps the best way to use the 'search posts' feature is to pick a few members who you trust to deliver accurate information, and simply enter their name(s) into the search engine so you only get returns from them. Sad, but true.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: xhooliganx]
    #7835193 - 01/05/08 11:43 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

xhooliganx said:basicly straight verm is pretty much the worst choice as a casing layer.




You've been told before in other threads by other users that this is not the case.

Straight verm has worked plenty well for me and many others. It's quite possible to get 100% cap coverage using only verm. It worked better for me than 50/50 over many trays.

RR has clued me into the fact that 50/50 works a lot better when pasteurized rather than sterilized. So if you are using sterilization rather than pasteurization straight verm is probably your best bet. With pasturization you may find that 50/50 works better, however they are both great casing materials and neither will limit you if your conditions are right.


-FF


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Offlinelaten
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7835200 - 01/05/08 11:45 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Figuring out the properties of materials used is always best done before going on a crusade about them.


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7835232 - 01/05/08 11:57 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Unfortunately, the search engine will return threads where noobs were stating 'what if?' as fact, so you'll find all sorts of wrong information. Perhaps the best way to use the 'search posts' feature is to pick a few members who you trust to deliver accurate information, and simply enter their name(s) into the search engine so you only get returns from them. Sad, but true.
RR




He still didn't answer, in fact he wrote 3 paragraphs explaining how he won't take the time to write 3 paragraphs explaining why peat is superior.

He does not know why it is superior, no one does, only that it is, and that commercial growers use it.

I was NOT saying peat is bad, NEVER did, not once.

Search yourself Roger, find me a couple ,inks to 5 yea4r0old threads explaining chemically and mythologically why peat is superior.

How about this question, what does the casing lose why you reduce the amount of peat?

Fluffiness?

Easy of judging moisture content?

Those are the only answers anyone gave, most gave none.

I NEVER doubted that peat is good, but it does triple the work.

Say your boss wanted you do do a task a certain way that required 15 minutes to perform, yet you could see another way that would take 5.

Would you at least ask him about it, or would you merely reply yessa mazza, yessa.


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7835288 - 01/05/08 12:10 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

Peat is plant based, which means it's nutritive.





Commercial growers use buffered peat and NO verm as casing. Their income depends on growing as many mushrooms as they can for the money they spend to grow them. Do you really think a multi-billion dollar industry is just throwing money away?




Fine, so then why do you remove 50% of the PEAT and replace it with verm?

Simple question, commercial Gods of Dogma use only buffered peat, yet you change their time honored tek?

I wonder if they would chastise you for asking questions, and tell you go learn it all without interaction.

Also Roger, 50% or more of OLD POSTS ARE CRAP AND INACCURATE.

There are still hundreds of posts saying coir is crap.

Did you ever look at it from the eyes of a noob?

If you know nothing, and were told to learn it all searching 50/50 true to false assertions, come on Man, chill out.

It's easier to ignore right?


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OfflineHappyTripping
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7835300 - 01/05/08 12:14 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Yes, it is easier to ignore...in fact, where did that "Ignore User" button go....?


--------------------
(Everything written here is the work or genesis of my best buddy's girlfriend's dog's-friend's cat's owner. If it has been written in the first person, the reason has been for clarity.)


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7835395 - 01/05/08 12:39 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

Peat is plant based, which means it's nutritive.





Wrong. Flat out wrong.





Actually it is you who is wrong, flat wrong.

While it is true that peat has VERY little nutritive value, it is not inert like perlite and verm, and does in face contain a small amount of nutrients.

You would have been right to say little nutritive value, but to say none make me right and you wrong.


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7835405 - 01/05/08 12:41 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Unfortunately, the search engine will return threads where noobs were stating 'what if?' as fact, so you'll find all sorts of wrong information. Perhaps the best way to use the 'search posts' feature is to pick a few members who you trust to deliver accurate information, and simply enter their name(s) into the search engine so you only get returns from them. Sad, but true.
RR




Try it man, really, you get 50% of that trusted member NOT ANSWERING the question.

Like you say one teaspoon of lime per cup of peat, but who used those amounts for anything?

I would start with quarts man, maybe pints, but a more useful answer would be, "use 6 teaspoons per 24 pints", or something like that.


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: laten]
    #7835410 - 01/05/08 12:43 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

It is interesting that this useless thread of old stupid questions is the most popular one right now!

Someone help me out here, searching is a mixed bag.


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Invisibleshaggydogman
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7835551 - 01/05/08 01:16 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

For home cultivation I have seen people swear by verm alone as a casing, Jeetered for one. Many swear by 50/50+, some say MGMC is the business. It's a personal choice. Everyone has different circumstances, so some things work better than others in different circumstances (ambient temps,RH etc). Also Peat and MGMC are locally produced and their properties will vary according to where they are produced.

My reason as I said before is the ease of judging moisture content and that it works well for me.

I have read elsewhere that peat contains bacteria that help with the formation of primordia. I would guess that commercial growers use it because it is the most cost effective material. Producing the highest yield per cost of casing and sub etc etc.

My advice to you would be to now make 2 trays produced at the same time with the same spawn and sub and then case one with verm and one with 50/50+. See what works best for you. Then bear in mind that because it works best for you doesn't mean it is going to work best for everyone.

So far I have tried 50/50+, mgmc and just verm and I find 50/50+ works best for me with mgmc almost as good, verm thrid best. MGMC is the most convenient, so it depends on my mood between that and 50/50+.

What have you tried so far???

The discovery of these things is half the fun of this hobby :smile:
Go enjoy it :smile: :smile:

Peace
Shaggydogman.


--------------------
Rye -- WBS | Grain LC -- G2G | Bulk -- Monotub | 50/50 -- Late Casing -- A Pinning Strategy
Disclaimer: My opinion is subject to change at short notice subject to but not limited by new information and knowledge being made available.


Edited by shaggydogman (01/05/08 02:11 PM)


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: shaggydogman]
    #7835818 - 01/05/08 02:20 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

shaggydogman said:

I have read elsewhere that peat contains bacteria that help with the formation of primordia. I would guess that commercial growers use it because it is the most cost effective material. Producing the highest yield per cost of casing and sub etc etc.


Peace
Shaggydogman.




Nice reply man, thats what I was looking for, what does the peat have that mushrooms need.

That makes sense completely.

But like I said, if commercial pros use straight peat, then why cut it by 50% with verm, an inferior casing martial which pros don't even use.

Another side is this, pro commercial growers use compost, not horse poo and straw, there is a difference.

Pro compost is only like 10% hpoo, and 80-90% composted straw with urea.

I found a link to get it straight up dry and pasteurized for $30 for 4 lbs dry!

http://www.mushroomadventures.com/compost.html


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7835829 - 01/05/08 02:23 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Compost Formula:

Mushroom Compost is a complicated material made from several different materials. Most of it is made from a base of straw or hay. To that is added a small amount of supplements, minerals and manure. A brief out line on how mushroom compost is made follows...

Phase 1, Agaricus bisporus Compost Formula. 1 - Three wire bale formula.

Day

Treatment to material and ingredients to add.

1
Monday
Wet down.*Wheat Straw one bale, or Stable straw with 10% horse manure, ( 50 pounds.)

2
Tuesday
Let it sit:

3
Wednesday
Let it sit:

4
Thursday
Add - dried poultry waste and Urea. (1 Pound - Dried Poultry Waste & 1.2 ounze Urea.)

5
Friday
Let it sit:

6
Saturday
Flip pile and wet down.*

7
Sunday
Let it sit:

8
Monday
Flip pile and wet down.*

9
Tuesday
Let it sit:

10
Wednesday
Let it sit:

11
Thursday
Add - dried poultry waste and Urea. (1 Pound - Dried Poultry Waste & 1.2 ounze Urea.)

12
Friday
Flip pile.

13
Saturday
Flip pile and wet down.* - Add 2 pounds - Cotton Seed Hulls.

14
Sunday
Let it sit:

15
Monday
Flip pile and wet down.* (Compost will naturally start to heat up to high temperatures.)

16
Tuesday
Let it sit:

17
Wednesday
Add - 3lbs. Cotton Seed Meal, 2 lbs. Gypsum, 1 lbs. Rape Seed Meal, 1 lbs. Peat Moss.

18
Thursday
Turn pile, water lightly.* (Keep the pile in a more compact format to allow heat to build up.)

19
Friday
Let it sit:

20
Saturday
Turn pile, water lightly.*

21
Sunday
Let it sit:

22
Monday
Turn pile, water lightly.*

23
Tuesday
Let it sit:

24
Wednesday
Turn pile, and fill containers. - Ready to pasturize at 142 degrees F. for 6 hours.



First stabilize at 132 F. for 3 hrs. , then raise to 142 F. for 6 hrs.

Finished compost has 65-70% water content.

Slowly let cool for 2 days. Slow clean air ventilation required.

Well made compost is blackish and has a light carmel type coating covering the straw. Over composting will lower mushroom yeilds.

Compost is pasturized to kill any existing undesirable fungi growing in the compost. It can then be inoculated with mushroom spawn.



* Wet down just enough to moisten the material and not enough to cause water run off. Run off washes away the added nuitrients.

Note: Compost should be made on a solid surface (concrete, asphalt, plastic, wood) to prevent the washing away of added nutrients.

The above formula was downsized from a larger volume formula. This smaller volume formula may require additional composting time.


Copyright © 1999 - 2008 Donald J. Simoni. All Rights Reserved.


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Offlinexhooliganx
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7835892 - 01/05/08 02:40 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

hpoo is semi composted straw. the horse eats it breaks it down in it's tummy and poops it out.

most people don't use compost because of how expensive it is or because it takes a bit of time and space to make. I like hpoo cause it's given away by the truck load. there's actualy been a huge decrease of people using hpoo since coir has been used as a bulk substrate just because it's so easy to get ahold of. I have 2 50 gallon bins of hpoo that I got for free. my first couple grows where on coir. after using hpoo i'll probably never use coir again.


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Invisibleshaggydogman
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: xhooliganx]
    #7836199 - 01/05/08 03:56 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Aye aye captn, I got some readin for ya....

Now it does study a different species but it's some good background never the less...
http://www.mycologia.org/cgi/content/full/95/4/620
http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/53/5/1132.pdf

p.s. http://www.shroomery.org/8389/Easy-Compost-Recipe is much easier when using the interweb thingy.... :p


--------------------
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Edited by shaggydogman (01/05/08 03:59 PM)


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OfflineNebula
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7836375 - 01/05/08 04:34 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Unfortunately, the search engine will return threads where noobs were stating 'what if?' as fact, so you'll find all sorts of wrong information. Perhaps the best way to use the 'search posts' feature is to pick a few members who you trust to deliver accurate information, and simply enter their name(s) into the search engine so you only get returns from them. Sad, but true.
RR



This is a bit arrogant imho. As if only super experts are able to give good advice. What matters imo is that you are sure about your advice, don't guess and speculate. I don't consider myself a super expert (yet), but I'll try to give advice based on information I got from sources I consider reliable such as Paul Stamets books and yes, your video.


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InvisibleDontPlay
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: anarchOi]
    #7836409 - 01/05/08 04:43 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

anarchOi said:
remember; cubensis do not need to be cased.






Is this true, If they don't what are you supposed to do to a tray of grain or spawn ? Personally I used a layer of the fine grade vermiculite and today was happy to see it's growing fine now wether or not it will continue to be fine is another story. Will keep you posted.

And to the post above me, he said a few TRUSTED ppl not super genius's. Did that hurt your feelings so bad that you called RR arrogant ? Im a noob and I'll admit it, if he didn't want me giving bad advice to people who deserve good answers than I agree. I would like to get straight answers, it would make research so much easier.


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Edited by DontPlay (01/05/08 04:48 PM)


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OfflineNebula
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7836411 - 01/05/08 04:44 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Captain Cubensis said:
what does the peat have that mushrooms need.




It has already been said by Shaggydogman. Maybe Paul Stamets can convince you.. From page 198 of his book "Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms":
"Peat moss, although lacking in nutrition, is resplendent with mushroom stimulating bacteria and yeasts".
And he agrees with RR, it's "lacking in nutrition". What makes you think Stamets and RR are wrong?


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OfflineNebula
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7836446 - 01/05/08 04:55 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Captain Cubensis said:
Like you say one teaspoon of lime per cup of peat, but who used those amounts for anything?

I would start with quarts man, maybe pints, but a more useful answer would be, "use 6 teaspoons per 24 pints", or something like that.



RR's advice is fine, he is giving you a ratio and that's what matters!
Now use this website and calculate your amounts:
http://www.easysurf.cc/cnver13.htm#fdtoc1


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: Nebula]
    #7836492 - 01/05/08 05:06 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

"Peat moss, although lacking in nutrition, is resplendent with mushroom stimulating bacteria and yeasts".
-Paul Stamets

Well that is the answer I was looking for.


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OfflineNebula
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7836546 - 01/05/08 05:22 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

BTW, Staments does not recommend 50/50+. This is his recipe:
10 units peat moss
0.5 unit calcium sulfate
0.5 unit calcium carbonate
Calcium sulfate provides looseness (particle separation) and mineral salts especially sulfur and calcium, essential elements for mushroom metabolism.


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: Nebula]
    #7836636 - 01/05/08 05:45 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Nebula said:
BTW, Staments does not recommend 50/50+. This is his recipe:
10 units peat moss
0.5 unit calcium sulfate
0.5 unit calcium carbonate
Calcium sulfate provides looseness (particle separation) and mineral salts especially sulfur and calcium, essential elements for mushroom metabolism.




Nice, so are you suggesting straight peat? I think you are...come on...that's what commercial farmers use.


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Offlinelaten
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7837629 - 01/05/08 10:42 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Peat is fine if you don't want to spend the time mixing in the verm. It'll be fine.


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OfflineanarchOi
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: laten]
    #7838093 - 01/06/08 02:20 AM (16 years, 26 days ago)

"The University of California Cooperative Extension of Santa Clara County Agricultural Research Program (UCCE-SCL) has previously researched alternative substrate materials for mushroom cultivation. In this bench scale, preliminary research, UCCE-SCL determined that composted yard trimmings and composted wood-overs have high potential as substrate base for the production of oyster mushrooms (Pleurotus pulmonarius and P. ostreatus). The substrate base used in current mushroom production is specialized compost made primarily from nonwaste sources. The UCCE-SCL has also determined that vermicompost produced from food scraps and paper waste has characteristics similar to those of peat moss. Peat moss is the main material used as the casing layer in commercial white button mushroom (Agaricus bisporus) production and is a costly "non-native" and "nonrenewable" input."

http://www.ciwmb.ca.gov/organics/Farming/AgDemos/MushroomFarm.htm

the idea that commercial mushroom farmers use peat because it's cost efficient is BS

which is so far the only reason we've gotten for using peat...


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OfflineNibin
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: DontPlay]
    #7838157 - 01/06/08 03:15 AM (16 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

DontPlay said:
Quote:

anarchOi said:
remember; cubensis do not need to be cased.






Is this true, If they don't what are you supposed to do to a tray of grain or spawn ? .




The problem with straight grain is that it doesn't retain water well, so it will require a casing, but more for the water reservoir than for the microclimate. A way around this is to make a mix with grains and some verm in it, for moisture retention.


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: Nebula]
    #7838889 - 01/06/08 11:15 AM (16 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Nebula said:
BTW, Staments does not recommend 50/50+. This is his recipe:
10 units peat moss
0.5 unit calcium sulfate
0.5 unit calcium carbonate
Calcium sulfate provides looseness (particle separation) and mineral salts especially sulfur and calcium, essential elements for mushroom metabolism.




What's with the "units"? Is this weight or volume? That will make a pretty big difference.


-FF


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: fastfred]
    #7838909 - 01/06/08 11:22 AM (16 years, 26 days ago)

Agaricus farmers use peat without the verm, while people growing cubes tend to mix peat and verm. There's a reason for this. Agaricus fruits at ten to twenty degrees cooler than cubensis in very low light. There is far less evaporation of moisture from the casing layer at lower temperatures, thus the reservoir effect of vermiculite is not as necessary. For a given volume, verm holds more moisture than peat, thus combining the two results in a compromise that favors fruiting in warmer conditions.

'Units' refers to volumetric measurements.
RR


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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: fastfred]
    #7838927 - 01/06/08 11:27 AM (16 years, 26 days ago)

The units will be volume (weight doesn't make sense, at least not to me) and just substitute units for whatever you want. It is the same as parts.

10 parts peat and 0.5 parts each of the others


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OfflineNebula
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7839286 - 01/06/08 01:08 PM (16 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Agaricus farmers use peat without the verm, while people growing cubes tend to mix peat and verm.  There's a reason for this.  Agaricus fruits at ten to twenty degrees cooler than cubensis in very low light.  There is far less evaporation of moisture from the casing layer at lower temperatures, thus the reservoir effect of vermiculite is not as necessary.  For a given volume, verm holds more moisture than peat, thus combining the two results in a compromise that favors fruiting in warmer conditions.

'Units' refers to volumetric measurements.
RR



Thanks for explaining this! Captain Cubensis now has sufficient information to know why 50/50+ is recommended for growing cubes and why it isn't the best choice for commercial growers :grin:


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: Nebula]
    #7839413 - 01/06/08 01:30 PM (16 years, 26 days ago)

10 parts peat to .5 parts Calcium Sulfate means 5% gypsum right?


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: Nibin]
    #7839443 - 01/06/08 01:36 PM (16 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Nibin said:
The units will be volume (weight doesn't make sense, at least not to me) and just substitute units for whatever you want. It is the same as parts.

10 parts peat and 0.5 parts each of the others




It means 5% gypsum, and 5% oyster flour.

Our recipe may look like this:

5 Parts Peat (Fine)
5 Parts Vermiculite (Medium Grade)
.5 Parts Gypsum (Fine)
.5 Parts Oyster Flour (Fine)

Or 45/45/5/5, more simply 45/45/10.

The casing mix being 90% an even mix of peat and verm, and 10% and even mix of Oyster Flour and Gypsum.

50/50+ says it all.


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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7839491 - 01/06/08 01:44 PM (16 years, 26 days ago)

peat and Pete.


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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: laten]
    #7842036 - 01/07/08 12:11 AM (16 years, 26 days ago)

i hated that show^ lol

nibin
if you put your grain dish in a terrarium
grain without a casing works fine


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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: anarchOi]
    #7842299 - 01/07/08 04:56 AM (16 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

anarchOi said:
i hated that show^ lol

nibin
if you put your grain dish in a terrarium
grain without a casing works fine




Have you actually done that and compared it to a cased grain? If you had you would have realized that the difference is huge.

We aren't talking about ambient RH here but substrate moisture content. Grain does not hold water well, while coir or hpoo do. So when the uncased grain pins, there is not enough water content in the substrate for good fruit growth.

The way around this is to case your grains (in this case, the casing apart from helping provide the microclimate for pinning behaves as a water supply for the grain) or to mix some verm into your grain jars before sterilizing to act as the water reservoir of the substrate.


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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: Nibin]
    #7842755 - 01/07/08 09:19 AM (16 years, 25 days ago)

yes i have nibin

the problems i had though involved bubblers splashing little drops of water on my casings
and everything got trich

but prior to that the only real problem i had with straight grain was that the mushrooms were tough to get off and damaged the substrate alot

also Nibin, would you include sprinkling verm a casing layer?
that ended up being the method i used for all grain trays

never got large mushrooms because it was a thin substrate
but they came plenty and many many times


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Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: anarchOi]
    #7842766 - 01/07/08 09:23 AM (16 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

anarchOi said:

also Nibin, would you include sprinkling verm a casing layer?
that ended up being the method i used for all grain trays





There you go, you cased it.


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