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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
Bleeding HeartLiberal


Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 648
Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7835232 - 01/05/08 11:57 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Unfortunately, the search engine will return threads where noobs were stating 'what if?' as fact, so you'll find all sorts of wrong information. Perhaps the best way to use the 'search posts' feature is to pick a few members who you trust to deliver accurate information, and simply enter their name(s) into the search engine so you only get returns from them. Sad, but true.
RR




He still didn't answer, in fact he wrote 3 paragraphs explaining how he won't take the time to write 3 paragraphs explaining why peat is superior.

He does not know why it is superior, no one does, only that it is, and that commercial growers use it.

I was NOT saying peat is bad, NEVER did, not once.

Search yourself Roger, find me a couple ,inks to 5 yea4r0old threads explaining chemically and mythologically why peat is superior.

How about this question, what does the casing lose why you reduce the amount of peat?

Fluffiness?

Easy of judging moisture content?

Those are the only answers anyone gave, most gave none.

I NEVER doubted that peat is good, but it does triple the work.

Say your boss wanted you do do a task a certain way that required 15 minutes to perform, yet you could see another way that would take 5.

Would you at least ask him about it, or would you merely reply yessa mazza, yessa.


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
Bleeding HeartLiberal


Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 648
Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7835288 - 01/05/08 12:10 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

Peat is plant based, which means it's nutritive.





Commercial growers use buffered peat and NO verm as casing. Their income depends on growing as many mushrooms as they can for the money they spend to grow them. Do you really think a multi-billion dollar industry is just throwing money away?




Fine, so then why do you remove 50% of the PEAT and replace it with verm?

Simple question, commercial Gods of Dogma use only buffered peat, yet you change their time honored tek?

I wonder if they would chastise you for asking questions, and tell you go learn it all without interaction.

Also Roger, 50% or more of OLD POSTS ARE CRAP AND INACCURATE.

There are still hundreds of posts saying coir is crap.

Did you ever look at it from the eyes of a noob?

If you know nothing, and were told to learn it all searching 50/50 true to false assertions, come on Man, chill out.

It's easier to ignore right?


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OfflineHappyTripping
Tranceformer
Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 119
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7835300 - 01/05/08 12:14 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Yes, it is easier to ignore...in fact, where did that "Ignore User" button go....?


--------------------
(Everything written here is the work or genesis of my best buddy's girlfriend's dog's-friend's cat's owner. If it has been written in the first person, the reason has been for clarity.)


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
Bleeding HeartLiberal


Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 648
Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7835395 - 01/05/08 12:39 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

Peat is plant based, which means it's nutritive.





Wrong. Flat out wrong.





Actually it is you who is wrong, flat wrong.

While it is true that peat has VERY little nutritive value, it is not inert like perlite and verm, and does in face contain a small amount of nutrients.

You would have been right to say little nutritive value, but to say none make me right and you wrong.


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
Bleeding HeartLiberal


Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 648
Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7835405 - 01/05/08 12:41 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Unfortunately, the search engine will return threads where noobs were stating 'what if?' as fact, so you'll find all sorts of wrong information. Perhaps the best way to use the 'search posts' feature is to pick a few members who you trust to deliver accurate information, and simply enter their name(s) into the search engine so you only get returns from them. Sad, but true.
RR




Try it man, really, you get 50% of that trusted member NOT ANSWERING the question.

Like you say one teaspoon of lime per cup of peat, but who used those amounts for anything?

I would start with quarts man, maybe pints, but a more useful answer would be, "use 6 teaspoons per 24 pints", or something like that.


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
Bleeding HeartLiberal


Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 648
Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: laten]
    #7835410 - 01/05/08 12:43 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

It is interesting that this useless thread of old stupid questions is the most popular one right now!

Someone help me out here, searching is a mixed bag.


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Invisibleshaggydogman
Stranger


Registered: 04/20/07
Posts: 672
Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7835551 - 01/05/08 01:16 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

For home cultivation I have seen people swear by verm alone as a casing, Jeetered for one. Many swear by 50/50+, some say MGMC is the business. It's a personal choice. Everyone has different circumstances, so some things work better than others in different circumstances (ambient temps,RH etc). Also Peat and MGMC are locally produced and their properties will vary according to where they are produced.

My reason as I said before is the ease of judging moisture content and that it works well for me.

I have read elsewhere that peat contains bacteria that help with the formation of primordia. I would guess that commercial growers use it because it is the most cost effective material. Producing the highest yield per cost of casing and sub etc etc.

My advice to you would be to now make 2 trays produced at the same time with the same spawn and sub and then case one with verm and one with 50/50+. See what works best for you. Then bear in mind that because it works best for you doesn't mean it is going to work best for everyone.

So far I have tried 50/50+, mgmc and just verm and I find 50/50+ works best for me with mgmc almost as good, verm thrid best. MGMC is the most convenient, so it depends on my mood between that and 50/50+.

What have you tried so far???

The discovery of these things is half the fun of this hobby :smile:
Go enjoy it :smile: :smile:

Peace
Shaggydogman.


--------------------
Rye -- WBS | Grain LC -- G2G | Bulk -- Monotub | 50/50 -- Late Casing -- A Pinning Strategy
Disclaimer: My opinion is subject to change at short notice subject to but not limited by new information and knowledge being made available.


Edited by shaggydogman (01/05/08 02:11 PM)


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
Bleeding HeartLiberal


Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 648
Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: shaggydogman]
    #7835818 - 01/05/08 02:20 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

shaggydogman said:

I have read elsewhere that peat contains bacteria that help with the formation of primordia. I would guess that commercial growers use it because it is the most cost effective material. Producing the highest yield per cost of casing and sub etc etc.


Peace
Shaggydogman.




Nice reply man, thats what I was looking for, what does the peat have that mushrooms need.

That makes sense completely.

But like I said, if commercial pros use straight peat, then why cut it by 50% with verm, an inferior casing martial which pros don't even use.

Another side is this, pro commercial growers use compost, not horse poo and straw, there is a difference.

Pro compost is only like 10% hpoo, and 80-90% composted straw with urea.

I found a link to get it straight up dry and pasteurized for $30 for 4 lbs dry!

http://www.mushroomadventures.com/compost.html


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
Bleeding HeartLiberal


Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 648
Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7835829 - 01/05/08 02:23 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Compost Formula:

Mushroom Compost is a complicated material made from several different materials. Most of it is made from a base of straw or hay. To that is added a small amount of supplements, minerals and manure. A brief out line on how mushroom compost is made follows...

Phase 1, Agaricus bisporus Compost Formula. 1 - Three wire bale formula.

Day

Treatment to material and ingredients to add.

1
Monday
Wet down.*Wheat Straw one bale, or Stable straw with 10% horse manure, ( 50 pounds.)

2
Tuesday
Let it sit:

3
Wednesday
Let it sit:

4
Thursday
Add - dried poultry waste and Urea. (1 Pound - Dried Poultry Waste & 1.2 ounze Urea.)

5
Friday
Let it sit:

6
Saturday
Flip pile and wet down.*

7
Sunday
Let it sit:

8
Monday
Flip pile and wet down.*

9
Tuesday
Let it sit:

10
Wednesday
Let it sit:

11
Thursday
Add - dried poultry waste and Urea. (1 Pound - Dried Poultry Waste & 1.2 ounze Urea.)

12
Friday
Flip pile.

13
Saturday
Flip pile and wet down.* - Add 2 pounds - Cotton Seed Hulls.

14
Sunday
Let it sit:

15
Monday
Flip pile and wet down.* (Compost will naturally start to heat up to high temperatures.)

16
Tuesday
Let it sit:

17
Wednesday
Add - 3lbs. Cotton Seed Meal, 2 lbs. Gypsum, 1 lbs. Rape Seed Meal, 1 lbs. Peat Moss.

18
Thursday
Turn pile, water lightly.* (Keep the pile in a more compact format to allow heat to build up.)

19
Friday
Let it sit:

20
Saturday
Turn pile, water lightly.*

21
Sunday
Let it sit:

22
Monday
Turn pile, water lightly.*

23
Tuesday
Let it sit:

24
Wednesday
Turn pile, and fill containers. - Ready to pasturize at 142 degrees F. for 6 hours.



First stabilize at 132 F. for 3 hrs. , then raise to 142 F. for 6 hrs.

Finished compost has 65-70% water content.

Slowly let cool for 2 days. Slow clean air ventilation required.

Well made compost is blackish and has a light carmel type coating covering the straw. Over composting will lower mushroom yeilds.

Compost is pasturized to kill any existing undesirable fungi growing in the compost. It can then be inoculated with mushroom spawn.



* Wet down just enough to moisten the material and not enough to cause water run off. Run off washes away the added nuitrients.

Note: Compost should be made on a solid surface (concrete, asphalt, plastic, wood) to prevent the washing away of added nutrients.

The above formula was downsized from a larger volume formula. This smaller volume formula may require additional composting time.


Copyright © 1999 - 2008 Donald J. Simoni. All Rights Reserved.


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Offlinexhooliganx
Munky
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/09/06
Posts: 900
Loc: reno, nevada
Last seen: 2 years, 8 months
Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7835892 - 01/05/08 02:40 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

hpoo is semi composted straw. the horse eats it breaks it down in it's tummy and poops it out.

most people don't use compost because of how expensive it is or because it takes a bit of time and space to make. I like hpoo cause it's given away by the truck load. there's actualy been a huge decrease of people using hpoo since coir has been used as a bulk substrate just because it's so easy to get ahold of. I have 2 50 gallon bins of hpoo that I got for free. my first couple grows where on coir. after using hpoo i'll probably never use coir again.


--------------------


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Invisibleshaggydogman
Stranger


Registered: 04/20/07
Posts: 672
Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: xhooliganx]
    #7836199 - 01/05/08 03:56 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Aye aye captn, I got some readin for ya....

Now it does study a different species but it's some good background never the less...
http://www.mycologia.org/cgi/content/full/95/4/620
http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/53/5/1132.pdf

p.s. http://www.shroomery.org/8389/Easy-Compost-Recipe is much easier when using the interweb thingy.... :p


--------------------
Rye -- WBS | Grain LC -- G2G | Bulk -- Monotub | 50/50 -- Late Casing -- A Pinning Strategy
Disclaimer: My opinion is subject to change at short notice subject to but not limited by new information and knowledge being made available.


Edited by shaggydogman (01/05/08 03:59 PM)


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OfflineNebula
Stranger


Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 172
Last seen: 15 years, 11 months
Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7836375 - 01/05/08 04:34 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Unfortunately, the search engine will return threads where noobs were stating 'what if?' as fact, so you'll find all sorts of wrong information. Perhaps the best way to use the 'search posts' feature is to pick a few members who you trust to deliver accurate information, and simply enter their name(s) into the search engine so you only get returns from them. Sad, but true.
RR



This is a bit arrogant imho. As if only super experts are able to give good advice. What matters imo is that you are sure about your advice, don't guess and speculate. I don't consider myself a super expert (yet), but I'll try to give advice based on information I got from sources I consider reliable such as Paul Stamets books and yes, your video.


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InvisibleDontPlay
Yeah Science!
Male


Registered: 12/13/07
Posts: 750
Loc: On Land most of the time....
Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: anarchOi]
    #7836409 - 01/05/08 04:43 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

anarchOi said:
remember; cubensis do not need to be cased.






Is this true, If they don't what are you supposed to do to a tray of grain or spawn ? Personally I used a layer of the fine grade vermiculite and today was happy to see it's growing fine now wether or not it will continue to be fine is another story. Will keep you posted.

And to the post above me, he said a few TRUSTED ppl not super genius's. Did that hurt your feelings so bad that you called RR arrogant ? Im a noob and I'll admit it, if he didn't want me giving bad advice to people who deserve good answers than I agree. I would like to get straight answers, it would make research so much easier.


--------------------
My Trade List


I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me. 
    Hunter S. Thompson



I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.
~Thomas Jefferson


Edited by DontPlay (01/05/08 04:48 PM)


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OfflineNebula
Stranger


Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 172
Last seen: 15 years, 11 months
Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7836411 - 01/05/08 04:44 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Captain Cubensis said:
what does the peat have that mushrooms need.




It has already been said by Shaggydogman. Maybe Paul Stamets can convince you.. From page 198 of his book "Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms":
"Peat moss, although lacking in nutrition, is resplendent with mushroom stimulating bacteria and yeasts".
And he agrees with RR, it's "lacking in nutrition". What makes you think Stamets and RR are wrong?


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OfflineNebula
Stranger


Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 172
Last seen: 15 years, 11 months
Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7836446 - 01/05/08 04:55 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Captain Cubensis said:
Like you say one teaspoon of lime per cup of peat, but who used those amounts for anything?

I would start with quarts man, maybe pints, but a more useful answer would be, "use 6 teaspoons per 24 pints", or something like that.



RR's advice is fine, he is giving you a ratio and that's what matters!
Now use this website and calculate your amounts:
http://www.easysurf.cc/cnver13.htm#fdtoc1


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
Bleeding HeartLiberal


Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 648
Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: Nebula]
    #7836492 - 01/05/08 05:06 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

"Peat moss, although lacking in nutrition, is resplendent with mushroom stimulating bacteria and yeasts".
-Paul Stamets

Well that is the answer I was looking for.


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OfflineNebula
Stranger


Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 172
Last seen: 15 years, 11 months
Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7836546 - 01/05/08 05:22 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

BTW, Staments does not recommend 50/50+. This is his recipe:
10 units peat moss
0.5 unit calcium sulfate
0.5 unit calcium carbonate
Calcium sulfate provides looseness (particle separation) and mineral salts especially sulfur and calcium, essential elements for mushroom metabolism.


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
Bleeding HeartLiberal


Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 648
Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: Nebula]
    #7836636 - 01/05/08 05:45 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Nebula said:
BTW, Staments does not recommend 50/50+. This is his recipe:
10 units peat moss
0.5 unit calcium sulfate
0.5 unit calcium carbonate
Calcium sulfate provides looseness (particle separation) and mineral salts especially sulfur and calcium, essential elements for mushroom metabolism.




Nice, so are you suggesting straight peat? I think you are...come on...that's what commercial farmers use.


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Offlinelaten
Stranger

Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 78
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7837629 - 01/05/08 10:42 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Peat is fine if you don't want to spend the time mixing in the verm. It'll be fine.


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OfflineanarchOi
Ellenalien is fat.
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 2,293
Loc: ASE Flag
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
Re: Hey Experts, what does 50% peat add except a pain in the butt? [Re: laten]
    #7838093 - 01/06/08 02:20 AM (16 years, 26 days ago)

"The University of California Cooperative Extension of Santa Clara County Agricultural Research Program (UCCE-SCL) has previously researched alternative substrate materials for mushroom cultivation. In this bench scale, preliminary research, UCCE-SCL determined that composted yard trimmings and composted wood-overs have high potential as substrate base for the production of oyster mushrooms (Pleurotus pulmonarius and P. ostreatus). The substrate base used in current mushroom production is specialized compost made primarily from nonwaste sources. The UCCE-SCL has also determined that vermicompost produced from food scraps and paper waste has characteristics similar to those of peat moss. Peat moss is the main material used as the casing layer in commercial white button mushroom (Agaricus bisporus) production and is a costly "non-native" and "nonrenewable" input."

http://www.ciwmb.ca.gov/organics/Farming/AgDemos/MushroomFarm.htm

the idea that commercial mushroom farmers use peat because it's cost efficient is BS

which is so far the only reason we've gotten for using peat...


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