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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Straight Peat as Casing Layer? Or 50/50?
    #7832877 - 01/04/08 05:52 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

I know there are a lot of threads on this, but if you searched the old threads on coir you will get some bad information.

Let's start a new dialogue on verm only casing layers.


Edited by Captain Cubensis (01/05/08 02:39 PM)


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Offlineveda_sticks
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7833061 - 01/04/08 06:49 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

They are considered the worst casing layer you can use, thats all i know.


--------------------

PF TEK - writeup by EvilMushroom666
Lets Grow Mushrooms - RogerRabbit & RoadKills website with sample videos plus the full PF TEK video series. Alot of great information - BUY THE DVD
Cakes can and will pin! - So you think cakes suck for pins. Your wrong
Franks Simple Coir/Verm Tek
Franks Proper Pasturisation Tek
Franks Spawning To Bulk - Monotub
Professor Pinheads RTV Injection Port Tek
Foo Mans No Soak WBS Prep Tek


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InvisibleSwan Song

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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: veda_sticks]
    #7833078 - 01/04/08 06:54 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

i have done it.
worked fine on a pure birdseed substrate. not much different than rolling a cake really.


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InvisibleDontPlay
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: veda_sticks]
    #7833079 - 01/04/08 06:54 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Well I tried one with a broken up pint sized BRF cake and so far its growing a quarter sized peice of mycelium.


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: veda_sticks]
    #7833102 - 01/04/08 07:01 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

veda_sticks said:
They are considered the worst casing layer you can use, thats all i know.




No offense man, but that's what I am talking about.

A couple years ago most people, except a few experts, thought coir was a lame sub.

The last year has been all good reports on coir.

It's about dogma. People who have never actually tried straight verm saying all they know is it sucks.

Try it in a side by side with your 50/50+, then tell us.


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Invisibleblood4blood
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7833114 - 01/04/08 07:06 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

i dont think it would be that bad of a casing layer at all. it holds water exceptional well and isnt that the purpose of a casing layer??

im actually going to try it on my two rye spawned to poo grows i have coming up and see how it turns out. then ill get back to this thread.

i dont know what the ph is of straight verm or how the mycelium will colinize it but ill find out.


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InvisibleDontPlay
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7833115 - 01/04/08 07:07 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

I imagine ppl have tried it and found that it doesn't do so well if at all. I didn't really expect to see anything but I couldn't find a small bag of peat moss. The gardening center in my town has a bail thats like huge for 2 dollars. Its like a 40 - 50 pound bail of peat moss lol.


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Invisiblethedefone
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7833116 - 01/04/08 07:07 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

They are considered the worst casing layer you can use, thats all i know.



Except when it comes to cakes, right? Then it's the best possible casing. I have heard of people having good grows with it lately, and swearing by it. But, adding peat is pretty proven.


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Edited by thedefone (01/04/08 07:08 PM)


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: thedefone]
    #7833135 - 01/04/08 07:11 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Peat is proven, but adjusting pH and fighting contams is not fun.

Verm is inert, no pH, no nutrients.

In principal, verm is no different than perlite in material substance and function, except verm holds water better than perlite.

Contams love peat, they cannot live on verm, as it contains no organic material to digest.


Edited by Captain Cubensis (01/04/08 07:33 PM)


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Invisiblethedefone
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7833179 - 01/04/08 07:20 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Peat is proven, but adjusting pH and fighting contams is not fun



I agree. Screwing around with pH and all that sucks. I may give the verm casing a go sometime soon. I guess at least the sub won't colonize the verm while it's acting as a casing...

Anyway, aren't perlite and vermiculite opposite in their functions? You don't roll cakes in perlite, and you don't use vermiculite in the bottoms of FC's. One evaporates water very well, while the other holds it very well.


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Invisibleblood4blood
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: thedefone]
    #7833194 - 01/04/08 07:23 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)




 

Anyway, aren't perlite and vermiculite opposite in their functions?  You don't roll cakes in perlite, and you don't use vermiculite in the bottoms of FC's.  One evaporates water very well, while the other holds it very well.


:thumbup:


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InvisibleDontPlay
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: thedefone]
    #7833200 - 01/04/08 07:24 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Yeah the Def one is right about that part. Perlite doesn't hold moisture it just keeps water on the surface well.


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: blood4blood]
    #7833278 - 01/04/08 07:37 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

blood4blood said:



 

Anyway, aren't perlite and vermiculite opposite in their functions?  You don't roll cakes in perlite, and you don't use vermiculite in the bottoms of FC's.  One evaporates water very well, while the other holds it very well.


:thumbup:




I meant they are both non-organic materials that when wet slowly release their moisture.

Peat and coir are nutritious plant based materials.

Verm is like a blanket to perlite sponge, but both are inert water retention materials.


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Invisibleblood4blood
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7833308 - 01/04/08 07:47 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Captain Cubensis said:
Quote:

blood4blood said:



 

Anyway, aren't perlite and vermiculite opposite in their functions?  You don't roll cakes in perlite, and you don't use vermiculite in the bottoms of FC's.  One evaporates water very well, while the other holds it very well.


:thumbup:




I meant they are both non-organic materials that when wet slowly release their moisture.

Peat and coir are nutritious plant based materials.

Verm is like a blanket to perlite sponge, but both are inert water retention materials.





http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6610766#Post6610766


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OfflineNibin
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7834532 - 01/05/08 05:33 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Captain Cubensis said:
Quote:

blood4blood said:



 

Anyway, aren't perlite and vermiculite opposite in their functions?  You don't roll cakes in perlite, and you don't use vermiculite in the bottoms of FC's.  One evaporates water very well, while the other holds it very well.


:thumbup:




I meant they are both non-organic materials that when wet slowly release their moisture.

Peat and coir are nutritious plant based materials.

Verm is like a blanket to perlite sponge, but both are inert water retention materials.




Perlite doesn't absorb any moisture to release.  Al it does is get it's surface coated in water.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7834740 - 01/05/08 08:47 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Captain Cubensis said:
A couple years ago most people, except a few experts, thought coir was a lame sub.

The last year has been all good reports on coir.

It's about dogma. People who have never actually tried straight verm saying all they know is it sucks.

Try it in a side by side with your 50/50+, then tell us.




About 4 years ago, I was the very first one to post that coir is a substrate material. After a year of flames from people claiming that "Coir has NO nutes", somebody else finally tried it, and then somebody else, and so on. Experimenting is how we learn.

Plain verm has been used as a casing layer hundreds, if not thousands of times. I used it many times myself, but I've said this for years, and the results of many experiments still hold true; Plain verm is a horrible choice for a casing layer.

It would be really nice for a change to see someone actually experiment and then report the results, rather than endless posts about 'will this work?' or 'will that work?' and then arguing about it. Just do it. If you really want to experiment, try something that hasn't already been tried a thousand times. Look in your kitchen, find something silly, and then grow mushrooms on it. It's fun.
RR


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OfflineSupplier
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7834747 - 01/05/08 08:53 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Rabbit what do u suggest for a good casing layer. because i was going to do a 1 cake all verm casing in about a week. what do u think would be better?


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: Supplier]
    #7834772 - 01/05/08 09:05 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Dunk and roll is best for single cakes. For casing bulk substrates, the gold standard is peat/verm, with ten percent gypsum, and limed to pH 8. The verm isn't necessary however, and many commercial growers use straight buffered peat.
RR


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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

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OfflineanarchOi
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7834818 - 01/05/08 09:33 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

if you want use straight verm
i reccomend that you only sprinkle just enough to cover the surface
and usually i like to do it after pins have formed

some might say that this isn't casing, but it creates a nice microclimate none the less
remember that cubensis fruit quite well without a casing at all

i use this method for casing exclusively


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7834836 - 01/05/08 09:42 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

veda_sticks said:
They are considered the worst casing layer you can use, thats all i know.




Not true at all. Different people under different conditions report different results, but the fact is that verm makes a plenty good casing. I can assure you of that.

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Plain verm has been used as a casing layer hundreds, if not thousands of times. I used it many times myself, but I've said this for years, and the results of many experiments still hold true; Plain verm is a horrible choice for a casing layer.




I have to disagree strongly with you there. Back in the day I ran 50/50, 50/50+, and straight verm at different times AND side-by-side.

At first 50/50 seemed to give better results, but overall results weren't that great. After a bit of tweaking I was getting great results with all mixes.

In the end I decided that straight verm was the best casing material of the three.

It's possible that I wasn't pHing the peat right, and it's possible that by using sterilized casing that I was favoring one or the other. Perhaps I'm even slightly biased because straight verm is easier to prepare. However I obtained good results with all three types I tried and in the end verm came out the winner in my book.

Not only does straight verm work, it works great. YMMV, but IME straight verm performed the best of the three.


-FF


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Offlineveda_sticks
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7834859 - 01/05/08 09:53 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Captain Cubensis said:
Quote:

veda_sticks said:
They are considered the worst casing layer you can use, thats all i know.




No offense man, but that's what I am talking about.

A couple years ago most people, except a few experts, thought coir was a lame sub.

The last year has been all good reports on coir.

It's about dogma. People who have never actually tried straight verm saying all they know is it sucks.

Try it in a side by side with your 50/50+, then tell us.




just quoting what i have read by a few exports.

I have still to try it myself, i have no opinion on verm casing except for rolled on cakes.

When i get a decent amount of cakes on the go i will crumble and case, straight verm some and coir case others.


--------------------

PF TEK - writeup by EvilMushroom666
Lets Grow Mushrooms - RogerRabbit & RoadKills website with sample videos plus the full PF TEK video series. Alot of great information - BUY THE DVD
Cakes can and will pin! - So you think cakes suck for pins. Your wrong
Franks Simple Coir/Verm Tek
Franks Proper Pasturisation Tek
Franks Spawning To Bulk - Monotub
Professor Pinheads RTV Injection Port Tek
Foo Mans No Soak WBS Prep Tek


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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: fastfred]
    #7834865 - 01/05/08 09:57 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

in my more nub days (i admit i might have done things wrong)
i tested verm vs 50/50+ vs mgmc+
i acutally had the best results with MGMC+
it never contam'd and it weilded quite larger mushrooms than the other trays

i don't use MGMC anymore because of how compact it gets after the 2nd flush
but the point is that it worked and seemed to do quite well
like RR said, you can case with just about anything

and i ended up choosing verm out of the three aswell because it's just soooo much less hassle and there's alot less chance of fucking it up

plus i keep hearing that peat contains trichoderma and other common molds that promote plant root growth and that's why it works so well for the botanical side


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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: anarchOi]
    #7834925 - 01/05/08 10:22 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

It's possible that I wasn't pHing the peat right, and it's possible that by using sterilized casing that I was favoring one or the other.




Exactly. Peat based casing layers should be pasteurized, not sterilized. It does no good to say something doesn't perform well if you don't follow proper procedure in making it. As I've said many times, the commercial growers have invested millions of dollars into research on ways to maximize crops. We can learn a great deal from them, and then expand on that knowledge. Edible and medicinal mushrooms with few exceptions are exponentially harder to grow then cubensis, so learn from those who are already at the next level.

Growing cubes can be looked at as a way to learn mycology and then move on, or it can be looked at as a way to get some cheap drugs. Those who follow the latter are here today, freaked out by a trip and gone tomorrow. That's why there is such a huge turnover on this and other boards. Look at growing cubes as a way to 'learn the ropes' and then move to harder and more rewarding species. When you do that, the small things such as casing layer composition become much more important to get just right. Many species won't even fruit at all on a sterilized casing layer. Cubes will fruit, but poorly compared to how they fruit on a properly balanced, pasteurized casing layer, applied over a properly balanced, pasteurized bulk substrate.
RR


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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7834947 - 01/05/08 10:28 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

i'm assuming you want to pasteurize vs sterilize the peat because you don't want to kill the beneficial bacteria that aids mycelium growth

sooooo

what are the bacteria living off of in a non nutritive substrate such as peat?


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7835126 - 01/05/08 11:23 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Exactly. Peat based casing layers should be pasteurized, not sterilized. It does no good to say something doesn't perform well if you don't follow proper procedure in making it.




Well, I couldn't find the burning bush so I missed out on having the 10 commandments of mushroom growing handed down to me directly from god. Actually I got into things well before the shroomery existed and before casing became commonly practiced, or at least commonly known on the interweb.

I also had/have a pretty scientific interest in them. I had no pasteurization setup and sterilized everything. For the purposes of comparison it also wouldn't be very logical to compare one substrate which is more or less already sterile with another that is full of unidentified microorganisms.

Once I achieved 100% coverage of the substrate by mushroom caps with straight verm I really didn't see any need to further optimize growing conditions, substrate, or casing material.

I'd love to explore pasteurization and some of the more difficult species, but I have my hands full at the moment with work, etc..

Verm often seemed to produce a more even pinset for me and I have to say that it works great. It's not very hard to obtain maximum yield from 100% verm, so I have to go with what worked well IME.


-FF


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: fastfred]
    #7835436 - 01/05/08 12:50 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
Quote:

veda_sticks said:
They are considered the worst casing layer you can use, thats all i know.




Not true at all. Different people under different conditions report different results, but the fact is that verm makes a plenty good casing. I can assure you of that.

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Plain verm has been used as a casing layer hundreds, if not thousands of times. I used it many times myself, but I've said this for years, and the results of many experiments still hold true; Plain verm is a horrible choice for a casing layer.




I have to disagree strongly with you there. Back in the day I ran 50/50, 50/50+, and straight verm at different times AND side-by-side.

At first 50/50 seemed to give better results, but overall results weren't that great. After a bit of tweaking I was getting great results with all mixes.

In the end I decided that straight verm was the best casing material of the three.

It's possible that I wasn't pHing the peat right, and it's possible that by using sterilized casing that I was favoring one or the other. Perhaps I'm even slightly biased because straight verm is easier to prepare. However I obtained good results with all three types I tried and in the end verm came out the winner in my book.

Not only does straight verm work, it works great. YMMV, but IME straight verm performed the best of the three.


-FF




That's quite a bit different then, "the worst casing possible"

How could the worst casing possible compete with the best?

Thanks Fred, for being a rebel without a cause!


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Invisiblelarge_dose
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7835503 - 01/05/08 01:05 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

The first casing i ever did was WBS mixed with wet verm and cased with a quarter inch of just straight verm. It performed wonderfully, the pinset was actually amazing. I went that route because i was scared of a nutritious substrate and i had no buffers for peat. Trying to avoid contams at all possible i did 100% vermiculite.

the only time i used it alone on casing was great.


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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: fastfred]
    #7835506 - 01/05/08 01:05 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Well wait why dont you get your fully colinized cakes crumble them up then get some jars an fill them with the regular brf an verm an sterilize it an use it as a casing layer that would be good right.

i dont see why that wouldnt work at all its justusing the cakes but not cakish more flat.


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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7835608 - 01/05/08 01:26 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Captain Cubensis said:
That's quite a bit different then, "the worst casing possible"

How could the worst casing possible compete with the best?

Thanks Fred, for being a rebel without a cause!



well the thing is cubes are so simple to grow that you can use something like straight verm and have decent results. most people don't have that good of results with straight verm.


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: xhooliganx]
    #7835796 - 01/05/08 02:15 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Good point.


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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7836030 - 01/05/08 03:17 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

may as well go the extra mile for 50/50.


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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: anarchOi]
    #7838000 - 01/06/08 01:26 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

anarchOi said:
i'm assuming you want to pasteurize vs sterilize the peat because you don't want to kill the beneficial bacteria that aids mycelium growth

sooooo

what are the bacteria living off of in a non nutritive substrate such as peat?




"Most laboratory techniques for growing bacteria use high levels of nutrients to produce large amounts of cells cheaply and quickly. However, in natural environments nutrients are limited, meaning that bacteria cannot continue to reproduce indefinitely"

in the many many months it takes for your bag of peat to get to you, then after pasteurization and the month or so it spends in your tub or what not
you don't think that the bacteria dies out?
i just don't understand how you can say "we use it cuz it doesn't get eaten" then you say "you pastuerize so that it leaves the beneficial bacteria"

either peat is nutritive or i'm very confused


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OfflineNibin
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: anarchOi]
    #7838121 - 01/06/08 02:40 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

anarchOi said:
Quote:

anarchOi said:
i'm assuming you want to pasteurize vs sterilize the peat because you don't want to kill the beneficial bacteria that aids mycelium growth

sooooo

what are the bacteria living off of in a non nutritive substrate such as peat?




"Most laboratory techniques for growing bacteria use high levels of nutrients to produce large amounts of cells cheaply and quickly. However, in natural environments nutrients are limited, meaning that bacteria cannot continue to reproduce indefinitely"

in the many many months it takes for your bag of peat to get to you, then after pasteurization and the month or so it spends in your tub or what not
you don't think that the bacteria dies out?
i just don't understand how you can say "we use it cuz it doesn't get eaten" then you say "you pastuerize so that it leaves the beneficial bacteria"

either peat is nutritive or i'm very confused




Nutritive is a very relative term. What is nutritive for a plant, isn't nutritive for a fungi, and what is nutritive for a fungi might not be nutritive for us (we don't eat hpoo, except the idiots from Jackass).

Peat could be perfectly nutritional for bacteria and not be nutritive for fungi. As it isn't a 100% mineral substance it will never be as inert as verm.

But then, in nature, they don't fruit on totally sterile substrate or casing materials and it is very possible that cubes benefit from certain interactions with other microorganisms.


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OfflineanarchOi
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: Nibin]
    #7838129 - 01/06/08 02:45 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

then why not collect a cup of dirt from outside?
or why even pasteurize?

i don't see why pay for peat and put the work into it to get the same results

the reason commercial growers use peat, is because of how fluffy it is, they use incredibly thick substrate layer and they don't want it to compact when they run their ceiling sprinklers lol


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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: anarchOi]
    #7838232 - 01/06/08 05:04 AM (16 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

anarchOi said:
then why not collect a cup of dirt from outside?
or why even pasteurize?

i don't see why pay for peat and put the work into it to get the same results

the reason commercial growers use peat, is because of how fluffy it is, they use incredibly thick substrate layer and they don't want it to compact when they run their ceiling sprinklers lol




You answered your own question. Because of the texture.

The only point I am trying to make is that peat can be nutritive for other organisms while not being nutritive for fungi.


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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: xhooliganx]
    #7838866 - 01/06/08 11:06 AM (16 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

xhooliganx said:
well the thing is cubes are so simple to grow that you can use something like straight verm and have decent results. most people don't have that good of results with straight verm.




Don't extrapolate your limited experience with verm to "most people don't have that good of results". While I can't speak for "most people", there are a large number of past and present growers that get great results from straight verm. If you supply the proper conditions you'll get as good of results as any type of casing out there.

As for the peat and bacteria question... Peat is non-nutritive (in most senses of the word) because bacteria have spent many years consuming the usable parts of the biomass. What's left is essentially non-nutritive for bacteria and plants, but contains cellulose and lignin.

Sequences of bacteria have consumed almost all of the usable nutrition in peat. You end up with the bacteria that lived on the waste of the bacteria that lived on the waste of the bacteria that lived on the peat. Bacteria are capable of producing various structures, like endospores, that will revive upon suitable conditions. They can also regulate their growth dependent on the availability of nutrients. They aren't necessarily living on anything, they may just be existing at a very low level using nutrients as they become available from the breakdown of the peat. That's my understanding at least.

I wonder how necessary pasteurization is for peat?


-FF


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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: fastfred]
    #7838903 - 01/06/08 11:20 AM (16 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
Quote:

xhooliganx said:
well the thing is cubes are so simple to grow that you can use something like straight verm and have decent results. most people don't have that good of results with straight verm.




Don't extrapolate your limited experience with verm to "most people don't have that good of results". While I can't speak for "most people", there are a large number of past and present growers that get great results from straight verm. If you supply the proper conditions you'll get as good of results as any type of casing out there.

As for the peat and bacteria question... Peat is non-nutritive (in most senses of the word) because bacteria have spent many years consuming the usable parts of the biomass. What's left is essentially non-nutritive for bacteria and plants, but contains cellulose and lignin.

Sequences of bacteria have consumed almost all of the usable nutrition in peat. You end up with the bacteria that lived on the waste of the bacteria that lived on the waste of the bacteria that lived on the peat. Bacteria are capable of producing various structures, like endospores, that will revive upon suitable conditions. They can also regulate their growth dependent on the availability of nutrients. They aren't necessarily living on anything, they may just be existing at a very low level using nutrients as they become available from the breakdown of the peat. That's my understanding at least.

I wonder how necessary pasteurization is for peat?


-FF




I always thought that the reason Peat was non nutritive was not that it had decayed but that peat moss contains phenols in it's cell walls which makes decay hard, plus the fact that the moss is resistant to acids, and mycelium digestive secretions are acid.


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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: Nibin]
    #7839143 - 01/06/08 12:45 PM (16 years, 26 days ago)

It does decompose quite slowly because of the anaerobic conditions, high acidity, and phenolic compounds. Most of the available nutrients are eventually decomposed. Peat moss is usually quite old, compacted, and decayed before it's harvested.


-FF


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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: fastfred]
    #12076134 - 02/22/10 10:07 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Verm poses threats to lung health and just costs too much and is easily the most called for thing in all stages of the mycology experience.  However, straw/poo tek eliminates the need for verm at the substrate level and like RR mentioned about the "buffered peat"-this can very well eliminate the need for verm on the casing level.  As far as the last hurdle, the jar substrate level - one would not need verm (as a top layer) if proper sterilization procedures were followed.  Plus, if the jar uses grains/bird seed, the use of verm may not be so keen for its aeration/moisture retention purposes because a) the properly prepared grain/bird seed holds just the right amount of moisture to carry the myc through until the spawn stage happens, where more moisture awaits them.  b) the properly prepared grain/bird seeds holds just the right amount of moisture to allow for free air exchange.  this - coupled with vigorous and sufficient shaking of jars at about 30% complete - will allow for the even coverage and distribution of air in the jars until completely colonized.  c) more gypsum maybe used instead of verm to make up for the possible lack of aeration and to prevent clumping. d) straw can be added as a substitute for verm in the jar phase.

Sorry if i'm reviving an old thread, but this is all apart of my education and learning.  Putting input and giving feedback I believe will sharpen my own steel.  See how the above advices will serve you.


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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: ageminthe6]
    #12089943 - 02/24/10 04:14 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

#1 There's no lung health threat to verm.

#2 The cost of verm is insignificant in terms of project cost or the value of the product.

#3 Straight verm outperforms 50/50 IME.


-FF


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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: ageminthe6]
    #12090397 - 02/24/10 05:23 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Sorry if i'm reviving an old thread,




No no no! Poor netiquette. Start a new thread, or you get :lockdance: and worse.


Quote:

fastfred said:
#1 There's no lung health threat to verm.

#2 The cost of verm is insignificant in terms of project cost or the value of the product.

#3 Straight verm outperforms 50/50 IME.


-FF




Yes, yes, and could be. :wink:

I've used straight verm a lot with no probs.  Verm is cheap if you buy in bulk - $9 for a cubic foot at my local hydro store.

Besides, cubes don't require casing...:shrug:

Peace
-PS


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