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veda_sticks
Cultivator




Registered: 07/29/07
Posts: 14,191
Loc: UK
Last seen: 4 years, 25 days
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Quote:
Captain Cubensis said:
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veda_sticks said: They are considered the worst casing layer you can use, thats all i know.
No offense man, but that's what I am talking about.
A couple years ago most people, except a few experts, thought coir was a lame sub.
The last year has been all good reports on coir.
It's about dogma. People who have never actually tried straight verm saying all they know is it sucks.
Try it in a side by side with your 50/50+, then tell us.
just quoting what i have read by a few exports.
I have still to try it myself, i have no opinion on verm casing except for rolled on cakes.
When i get a decent amount of cakes on the go i will crumble and case, straight verm some and coir case others.
-------------------- PF TEK - writeup by EvilMushroom666 Lets Grow Mushrooms - RogerRabbit & RoadKills website with sample videos plus the full PF TEK video series. Alot of great information - BUY THE DVD Cakes can and will pin! - So you think cakes suck for pins. Your wrong Franks Simple Coir/Verm Tek Franks Proper Pasturisation Tek Franks Spawning To Bulk - Monotub Professor Pinheads RTV Injection Port Tek Foo Mans No Soak WBS Prep Tek
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anarchOi
Ellenalien is fat.



Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 2,293
Loc: ASE
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: fastfred]
#7834865 - 01/05/08 09:57 AM (16 years, 27 days ago) |
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in my more nub days (i admit i might have done things wrong) i tested verm vs 50/50+ vs mgmc+ i acutally had the best results with MGMC+ it never contam'd and it weilded quite larger mushrooms than the other trays
i don't use MGMC anymore because of how compact it gets after the 2nd flush but the point is that it worked and seemed to do quite well like RR said, you can case with just about anything
and i ended up choosing verm out of the three aswell because it's just soooo much less hassle and there's alot less chance of fucking it up
plus i keep hearing that peat contains trichoderma and other common molds that promote plant root growth and that's why it works so well for the botanical side
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure



Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: anarchOi]
#7834925 - 01/05/08 10:22 AM (16 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
It's possible that I wasn't pHing the peat right, and it's possible that by using sterilized casing that I was favoring one or the other.
Exactly. Peat based casing layers should be pasteurized, not sterilized. It does no good to say something doesn't perform well if you don't follow proper procedure in making it. As I've said many times, the commercial growers have invested millions of dollars into research on ways to maximize crops. We can learn a great deal from them, and then expand on that knowledge. Edible and medicinal mushrooms with few exceptions are exponentially harder to grow then cubensis, so learn from those who are already at the next level.
Growing cubes can be looked at as a way to learn mycology and then move on, or it can be looked at as a way to get some cheap drugs. Those who follow the latter are here today, freaked out by a trip and gone tomorrow. That's why there is such a huge turnover on this and other boards. Look at growing cubes as a way to 'learn the ropes' and then move to harder and more rewarding species. When you do that, the small things such as casing layer composition become much more important to get just right. Many species won't even fruit at all on a sterilized casing layer. Cubes will fruit, but poorly compared to how they fruit on a properly balanced, pasteurized casing layer, applied over a properly balanced, pasteurized bulk substrate. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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anarchOi
Ellenalien is fat.



Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 2,293
Loc: ASE
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: RogerRabbit]
#7834947 - 01/05/08 10:28 AM (16 years, 27 days ago) |
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i'm assuming you want to pasteurize vs sterilize the peat because you don't want to kill the beneficial bacteria that aids mycelium growth
sooooo
what are the bacteria living off of in a non nutritive substrate such as peat?
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fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: RogerRabbit]
#7835126 - 01/05/08 11:23 AM (16 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said: Exactly. Peat based casing layers should be pasteurized, not sterilized. It does no good to say something doesn't perform well if you don't follow proper procedure in making it.
Well, I couldn't find the burning bush so I missed out on having the 10 commandments of mushroom growing handed down to me directly from god. Actually I got into things well before the shroomery existed and before casing became commonly practiced, or at least commonly known on the interweb.
I also had/have a pretty scientific interest in them. I had no pasteurization setup and sterilized everything. For the purposes of comparison it also wouldn't be very logical to compare one substrate which is more or less already sterile with another that is full of unidentified microorganisms.
Once I achieved 100% coverage of the substrate by mushroom caps with straight verm I really didn't see any need to further optimize growing conditions, substrate, or casing material.
I'd love to explore pasteurization and some of the more difficult species, but I have my hands full at the moment with work, etc..
Verm often seemed to produce a more even pinset for me and I have to say that it works great. It's not very hard to obtain maximum yield from 100% verm, so I have to go with what worked well IME.
-FF
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Captain Cubensis
Bleeding HeartLiberal


Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 648
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: fastfred]
#7835436 - 01/05/08 12:50 PM (16 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
fastfred said:
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veda_sticks said: They are considered the worst casing layer you can use, thats all i know.
Not true at all. Different people under different conditions report different results, but the fact is that verm makes a plenty good casing. I can assure you of that.
Quote:
RogerRabbit said: Plain verm has been used as a casing layer hundreds, if not thousands of times. I used it many times myself, but I've said this for years, and the results of many experiments still hold true; Plain verm is a horrible choice for a casing layer.
I have to disagree strongly with you there. Back in the day I ran 50/50, 50/50+, and straight verm at different times AND side-by-side.
At first 50/50 seemed to give better results, but overall results weren't that great. After a bit of tweaking I was getting great results with all mixes.
In the end I decided that straight verm was the best casing material of the three.
It's possible that I wasn't pHing the peat right, and it's possible that by using sterilized casing that I was favoring one or the other. Perhaps I'm even slightly biased because straight verm is easier to prepare. However I obtained good results with all three types I tried and in the end verm came out the winner in my book.
Not only does straight verm work, it works great. YMMV, but IME straight verm performed the best of the three.
-FF
That's quite a bit different then, "the worst casing possible"
How could the worst casing possible compete with the best?
Thanks Fred, for being a rebel without a cause!
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large_dose
Melonhead



Registered: 05/05/06
Posts: 1,346
Loc: Right in the Middle
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The first casing i ever did was WBS mixed with wet verm and cased with a quarter inch of just straight verm. It performed wonderfully, the pinset was actually amazing. I went that route because i was scared of a nutritious substrate and i had no buffers for peat. Trying to avoid contams at all possible i did 100% vermiculite.
the only time i used it alone on casing was great.
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shroomials
Shrooms


Registered: 12/13/07
Posts: 118
Loc: north carolina
Last seen: 16 years, 10 days
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: fastfred]
#7835506 - 01/05/08 01:05 PM (16 years, 27 days ago) |
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Well wait why dont you get your fully colinized cakes crumble them up then get some jars an fill them with the regular brf an verm an sterilize it an use it as a casing layer that would be good right.
i dont see why that wouldnt work at all its justusing the cakes but not cakish more flat.
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xhooliganx
Munky


Registered: 03/09/06
Posts: 900
Loc: reno, nevada
Last seen: 2 years, 8 months
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Quote:
Captain Cubensis said: That's quite a bit different then, "the worst casing possible"
How could the worst casing possible compete with the best?
Thanks Fred, for being a rebel without a cause!
well the thing is cubes are so simple to grow that you can use something like straight verm and have decent results. most people don't have that good of results with straight verm.
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Captain Cubensis
Bleeding HeartLiberal


Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 648
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: xhooliganx]
#7835796 - 01/05/08 02:15 PM (16 years, 27 days ago) |
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Good point.
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large_dose
Melonhead



Registered: 05/05/06
Posts: 1,346
Loc: Right in the Middle
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may as well go the extra mile for 50/50.
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anarchOi
Ellenalien is fat.



Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 2,293
Loc: ASE
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: anarchOi]
#7838000 - 01/06/08 01:26 AM (16 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
anarchOi said: i'm assuming you want to pasteurize vs sterilize the peat because you don't want to kill the beneficial bacteria that aids mycelium growth
sooooo
what are the bacteria living off of in a non nutritive substrate such as peat?
"Most laboratory techniques for growing bacteria use high levels of nutrients to produce large amounts of cells cheaply and quickly. However, in natural environments nutrients are limited, meaning that bacteria cannot continue to reproduce indefinitely"
in the many many months it takes for your bag of peat to get to you, then after pasteurization and the month or so it spends in your tub or what not you don't think that the bacteria dies out? i just don't understand how you can say "we use it cuz it doesn't get eaten" then you say "you pastuerize so that it leaves the beneficial bacteria"
either peat is nutritive or i'm very confused
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Nibin
Getting there



Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 4,480
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: anarchOi]
#7838121 - 01/06/08 02:40 AM (16 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
anarchOi said:
Quote:
anarchOi said: i'm assuming you want to pasteurize vs sterilize the peat because you don't want to kill the beneficial bacteria that aids mycelium growth
sooooo
what are the bacteria living off of in a non nutritive substrate such as peat?
"Most laboratory techniques for growing bacteria use high levels of nutrients to produce large amounts of cells cheaply and quickly. However, in natural environments nutrients are limited, meaning that bacteria cannot continue to reproduce indefinitely"
in the many many months it takes for your bag of peat to get to you, then after pasteurization and the month or so it spends in your tub or what not you don't think that the bacteria dies out? i just don't understand how you can say "we use it cuz it doesn't get eaten" then you say "you pastuerize so that it leaves the beneficial bacteria"
either peat is nutritive or i'm very confused
Nutritive is a very relative term. What is nutritive for a plant, isn't nutritive for a fungi, and what is nutritive for a fungi might not be nutritive for us (we don't eat hpoo, except the idiots from Jackass).
Peat could be perfectly nutritional for bacteria and not be nutritive for fungi. As it isn't a 100% mineral substance it will never be as inert as verm.
But then, in nature, they don't fruit on totally sterile substrate or casing materials and it is very possible that cubes benefit from certain interactions with other microorganisms.
-------------------- Newcomers guide-----> For all things shroomy
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anarchOi
Ellenalien is fat.



Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 2,293
Loc: ASE
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: Nibin]
#7838129 - 01/06/08 02:45 AM (16 years, 27 days ago) |
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then why not collect a cup of dirt from outside? or why even pasteurize?
i don't see why pay for peat and put the work into it to get the same results
the reason commercial growers use peat, is because of how fluffy it is, they use incredibly thick substrate layer and they don't want it to compact when they run their ceiling sprinklers lol
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Nibin
Getting there



Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 4,480
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: anarchOi]
#7838232 - 01/06/08 05:04 AM (16 years, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
anarchOi said: then why not collect a cup of dirt from outside? or why even pasteurize?
i don't see why pay for peat and put the work into it to get the same results
the reason commercial growers use peat, is because of how fluffy it is, they use incredibly thick substrate layer and they don't want it to compact when they run their ceiling sprinklers lol
You answered your own question. Because of the texture.
The only point I am trying to make is that peat can be nutritive for other organisms while not being nutritive for fungi.
-------------------- Newcomers guide-----> For all things shroomy
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fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: xhooliganx]
#7838866 - 01/06/08 11:06 AM (16 years, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
xhooliganx said: well the thing is cubes are so simple to grow that you can use something like straight verm and have decent results. most people don't have that good of results with straight verm.
Don't extrapolate your limited experience with verm to "most people don't have that good of results". While I can't speak for "most people", there are a large number of past and present growers that get great results from straight verm. If you supply the proper conditions you'll get as good of results as any type of casing out there.
As for the peat and bacteria question... Peat is non-nutritive (in most senses of the word) because bacteria have spent many years consuming the usable parts of the biomass. What's left is essentially non-nutritive for bacteria and plants, but contains cellulose and lignin.
Sequences of bacteria have consumed almost all of the usable nutrition in peat. You end up with the bacteria that lived on the waste of the bacteria that lived on the waste of the bacteria that lived on the peat. Bacteria are capable of producing various structures, like endospores, that will revive upon suitable conditions. They can also regulate their growth dependent on the availability of nutrients. They aren't necessarily living on anything, they may just be existing at a very low level using nutrients as they become available from the breakdown of the peat. That's my understanding at least.
I wonder how necessary pasteurization is for peat?
-FF
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Nibin
Getting there



Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 4,480
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: fastfred]
#7838903 - 01/06/08 11:20 AM (16 years, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
fastfred said:
Quote:
xhooliganx said: well the thing is cubes are so simple to grow that you can use something like straight verm and have decent results. most people don't have that good of results with straight verm.
Don't extrapolate your limited experience with verm to "most people don't have that good of results". While I can't speak for "most people", there are a large number of past and present growers that get great results from straight verm. If you supply the proper conditions you'll get as good of results as any type of casing out there.
As for the peat and bacteria question... Peat is non-nutritive (in most senses of the word) because bacteria have spent many years consuming the usable parts of the biomass. What's left is essentially non-nutritive for bacteria and plants, but contains cellulose and lignin.
Sequences of bacteria have consumed almost all of the usable nutrition in peat. You end up with the bacteria that lived on the waste of the bacteria that lived on the waste of the bacteria that lived on the peat. Bacteria are capable of producing various structures, like endospores, that will revive upon suitable conditions. They can also regulate their growth dependent on the availability of nutrients. They aren't necessarily living on anything, they may just be existing at a very low level using nutrients as they become available from the breakdown of the peat. That's my understanding at least.
I wonder how necessary pasteurization is for peat?
-FF
I always thought that the reason Peat was non nutritive was not that it had decayed but that peat moss contains phenols in it's cell walls which makes decay hard, plus the fact that the moss is resistant to acids, and mycelium digestive secretions are acid.
-------------------- Newcomers guide-----> For all things shroomy
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fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: Nibin]
#7839143 - 01/06/08 12:45 PM (16 years, 26 days ago) |
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It does decompose quite slowly because of the anaerobic conditions, high acidity, and phenolic compounds. Most of the available nutrients are eventually decomposed. Peat moss is usually quite old, compacted, and decayed before it's harvested.
-FF
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ageminthe6
Stranger


Registered: 12/10/09
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: fastfred]
#12076134 - 02/22/10 10:07 AM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Verm poses threats to lung health and just costs too much and is easily the most called for thing in all stages of the mycology experience. However, straw/poo tek eliminates the need for verm at the substrate level and like RR mentioned about the "buffered peat"-this can very well eliminate the need for verm on the casing level. As far as the last hurdle, the jar substrate level - one would not need verm (as a top layer) if proper sterilization procedures were followed. Plus, if the jar uses grains/bird seed, the use of verm may not be so keen for its aeration/moisture retention purposes because a) the properly prepared grain/bird seed holds just the right amount of moisture to carry the myc through until the spawn stage happens, where more moisture awaits them. b) the properly prepared grain/bird seeds holds just the right amount of moisture to allow for free air exchange. this - coupled with vigorous and sufficient shaking of jars at about 30% complete - will allow for the even coverage and distribution of air in the jars until completely colonized. c) more gypsum maybe used instead of verm to make up for the possible lack of aeration and to prevent clumping. d) straw can be added as a substitute for verm in the jar phase.
Sorry if i'm reviving an old thread, but this is all apart of my education and learning. Putting input and giving feedback I believe will sharpen my own steel. See how the above advices will serve you.
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fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: ageminthe6]
#12089943 - 02/24/10 04:14 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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#1 There's no lung health threat to verm.
#2 The cost of verm is insignificant in terms of project cost or the value of the product.
#3 Straight verm outperforms 50/50 IME.
-FF
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