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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 648
Straight Peat as Casing Layer? Or 50/50?
    #7832877 - 01/04/08 05:52 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

I know there are a lot of threads on this, but if you searched the old threads on coir you will get some bad information.

Let's start a new dialogue on verm only casing layers.


Edited by Captain Cubensis (01/05/08 02:39 PM)


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Offlineveda_sticks
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7833061 - 01/04/08 06:49 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

They are considered the worst casing layer you can use, thats all i know.


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InvisibleSwan Song

Registered: 02/08/06
Posts: 559
Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: veda_sticks]
    #7833078 - 01/04/08 06:54 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

i have done it.
worked fine on a pure birdseed substrate. not much different than rolling a cake really.


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InvisibleDontPlay
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Registered: 12/13/07
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: veda_sticks]
    #7833079 - 01/04/08 06:54 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Well I tried one with a broken up pint sized BRF cake and so far its growing a quarter sized peice of mycelium.


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 648
Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: veda_sticks]
    #7833102 - 01/04/08 07:01 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

veda_sticks said:
They are considered the worst casing layer you can use, thats all i know.




No offense man, but that's what I am talking about.

A couple years ago most people, except a few experts, thought coir was a lame sub.

The last year has been all good reports on coir.

It's about dogma. People who have never actually tried straight verm saying all they know is it sucks.

Try it in a side by side with your 50/50+, then tell us.


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Invisibleblood4blood
Calmer Than You Are


Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6,029
Loc: The Valley
Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7833114 - 01/04/08 07:06 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

i dont think it would be that bad of a casing layer at all. it holds water exceptional well and isnt that the purpose of a casing layer??

im actually going to try it on my two rye spawned to poo grows i have coming up and see how it turns out. then ill get back to this thread.

i dont know what the ph is of straight verm or how the mycelium will colinize it but ill find out.


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InvisibleDontPlay
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7833115 - 01/04/08 07:07 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

I imagine ppl have tried it and found that it doesn't do so well if at all. I didn't really expect to see anything but I couldn't find a small bag of peat moss. The gardening center in my town has a bail thats like huge for 2 dollars. Its like a 40 - 50 pound bail of peat moss lol.


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Invisiblethedefone
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Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 1,883
Loc: Gondwana
Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7833116 - 01/04/08 07:07 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

They are considered the worst casing layer you can use, thats all i know.



Except when it comes to cakes, right? Then it's the best possible casing. I have heard of people having good grows with it lately, and swearing by it. But, adding peat is pretty proven.


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Edited by thedefone (01/04/08 07:08 PM)


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 648
Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: thedefone]
    #7833135 - 01/04/08 07:11 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Peat is proven, but adjusting pH and fighting contams is not fun.

Verm is inert, no pH, no nutrients.

In principal, verm is no different than perlite in material substance and function, except verm holds water better than perlite.

Contams love peat, they cannot live on verm, as it contains no organic material to digest.


Edited by Captain Cubensis (01/04/08 07:33 PM)


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Invisiblethedefone
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Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 1,883
Loc: Gondwana
Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7833179 - 01/04/08 07:20 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Peat is proven, but adjusting pH and fighting contams is not fun



I agree. Screwing around with pH and all that sucks. I may give the verm casing a go sometime soon. I guess at least the sub won't colonize the verm while it's acting as a casing...

Anyway, aren't perlite and vermiculite opposite in their functions? You don't roll cakes in perlite, and you don't use vermiculite in the bottoms of FC's. One evaporates water very well, while the other holds it very well.


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Invisibleblood4blood
Calmer Than You Are


Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6,029
Loc: The Valley
Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: thedefone]
    #7833194 - 01/04/08 07:23 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)




 

Anyway, aren't perlite and vermiculite opposite in their functions?  You don't roll cakes in perlite, and you don't use vermiculite in the bottoms of FC's.  One evaporates water very well, while the other holds it very well.


:thumbup:


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InvisibleDontPlay
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Registered: 12/13/07
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: thedefone]
    #7833200 - 01/04/08 07:24 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Yeah the Def one is right about that part. Perlite doesn't hold moisture it just keeps water on the surface well.


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 648
Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: blood4blood]
    #7833278 - 01/04/08 07:37 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

blood4blood said:



 

Anyway, aren't perlite and vermiculite opposite in their functions?  You don't roll cakes in perlite, and you don't use vermiculite in the bottoms of FC's.  One evaporates water very well, while the other holds it very well.


:thumbup:




I meant they are both non-organic materials that when wet slowly release their moisture.

Peat and coir are nutritious plant based materials.

Verm is like a blanket to perlite sponge, but both are inert water retention materials.


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Invisibleblood4blood
Calmer Than You Are


Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6,029
Loc: The Valley
Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7833308 - 01/04/08 07:47 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Captain Cubensis said:
Quote:

blood4blood said:



 

Anyway, aren't perlite and vermiculite opposite in their functions?  You don't roll cakes in perlite, and you don't use vermiculite in the bottoms of FC's.  One evaporates water very well, while the other holds it very well.


:thumbup:




I meant they are both non-organic materials that when wet slowly release their moisture.

Peat and coir are nutritious plant based materials.

Verm is like a blanket to perlite sponge, but both are inert water retention materials.





http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6610766#Post6610766


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OfflineNibin
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7834532 - 01/05/08 05:33 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Captain Cubensis said:
Quote:

blood4blood said:



 

Anyway, aren't perlite and vermiculite opposite in their functions?  You don't roll cakes in perlite, and you don't use vermiculite in the bottoms of FC's.  One evaporates water very well, while the other holds it very well.


:thumbup:




I meant they are both non-organic materials that when wet slowly release their moisture.

Peat and coir are nutritious plant based materials.

Verm is like a blanket to perlite sponge, but both are inert water retention materials.




Perlite doesn't absorb any moisture to release.  Al it does is get it's surface coated in water.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7834740 - 01/05/08 08:47 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Captain Cubensis said:
A couple years ago most people, except a few experts, thought coir was a lame sub.

The last year has been all good reports on coir.

It's about dogma. People who have never actually tried straight verm saying all they know is it sucks.

Try it in a side by side with your 50/50+, then tell us.




About 4 years ago, I was the very first one to post that coir is a substrate material. After a year of flames from people claiming that "Coir has NO nutes", somebody else finally tried it, and then somebody else, and so on. Experimenting is how we learn.

Plain verm has been used as a casing layer hundreds, if not thousands of times. I used it many times myself, but I've said this for years, and the results of many experiments still hold true; Plain verm is a horrible choice for a casing layer.

It would be really nice for a change to see someone actually experiment and then report the results, rather than endless posts about 'will this work?' or 'will that work?' and then arguing about it. Just do it. If you really want to experiment, try something that hasn't already been tried a thousand times. Look in your kitchen, find something silly, and then grow mushrooms on it. It's fun.
RR


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OfflineSupplier
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7834747 - 01/05/08 08:53 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Rabbit what do u suggest for a good casing layer. because i was going to do a 1 cake all verm casing in about a week. what do u think would be better?


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: Supplier]
    #7834772 - 01/05/08 09:05 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Dunk and roll is best for single cakes. For casing bulk substrates, the gold standard is peat/verm, with ten percent gypsum, and limed to pH 8. The verm isn't necessary however, and many commercial growers use straight buffered peat.
RR


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OfflineanarchOi
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7834818 - 01/05/08 09:33 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

if you want use straight verm
i reccomend that you only sprinkle just enough to cover the surface
and usually i like to do it after pins have formed

some might say that this isn't casing, but it creates a nice microclimate none the less
remember that cubensis fruit quite well without a casing at all

i use this method for casing exclusively


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Straight Vermiculite as Casing Layer [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7834836 - 01/05/08 09:42 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

veda_sticks said:
They are considered the worst casing layer you can use, thats all i know.




Not true at all. Different people under different conditions report different results, but the fact is that verm makes a plenty good casing. I can assure you of that.

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Plain verm has been used as a casing layer hundreds, if not thousands of times. I used it many times myself, but I've said this for years, and the results of many experiments still hold true; Plain verm is a horrible choice for a casing layer.




I have to disagree strongly with you there. Back in the day I ran 50/50, 50/50+, and straight verm at different times AND side-by-side.

At first 50/50 seemed to give better results, but overall results weren't that great. After a bit of tweaking I was getting great results with all mixes.

In the end I decided that straight verm was the best casing material of the three.

It's possible that I wasn't pHing the peat right, and it's possible that by using sterilized casing that I was favoring one or the other. Perhaps I'm even slightly biased because straight verm is easier to prepare. However I obtained good results with all three types I tried and in the end verm came out the winner in my book.

Not only does straight verm work, it works great. YMMV, but IME straight verm performed the best of the three.


-FF


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