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Offlineunbeliever
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The Lie of the Free Market
    #7828173 - 01/03/08 04:09 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

I've long since stopped believing in santa claus, the easter bunny, eskimos and "free" markets. Another nail in the coffin on the free markets was hammered home today though when I listened to a fascinating interview with David Cay Johnston, a Pulitzer prize winning investigative reporter who recently wrote a book about how in the last few decades or so, all kinds of rules have been changed, abolished or modified to further widen the gap between the rich and powerful and the middle and lower classes.

I recommend listening to the interview, it's available HERE.

I don't want to re-type everything in the interview, so after you have listened to it, or if you've read the book (which I haven't yet), discuss.


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Happiness is a warm gun...


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
Re: The Lie of the Free Market [Re: unbeliever]
    #7828572 - 01/03/08 06:05 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

yeah the rich poor gap is huge but we shouldn't do anything about it since i'm sure god just loves them more :rolleyes:


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"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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OfflineCoaster
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Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 33,501
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Re: The Lie of the Free Market [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7828638 - 01/03/08 06:21 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

widen the GAP
woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
recession here we come.........i mean are


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: The Lie of the Free Market [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7828642 - 01/03/08 06:23 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

I know I do.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: The Lie of the Free Market [Re: unbeliever]
    #7830733 - 01/04/08 04:51 AM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

....who recently wrote a book about how in the last few decades or so, all kinds of rules have been changed, abolished or modified to further widen the gap between the rich and powerful and the middle and lower classes.




It is indeed a lie that the US economy is currently a free market, though it is still more free than the economies of most countries in the world.

But this is nothing new, so the author in question is merely repeating the obvious.



Phred


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: The Lie of the Free Market [Re: Phred]
    #7831150 - 01/04/08 08:41 AM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

....who recently wrote a book about how in the last few decades or so, all kinds of rules have been changed, abolished or modified to further widen the gap between the rich and powerful and the middle and lower classes.




It is indeed a lie that the US economy is currently a free market, though it is still more free than the economies of most countries in the world.

But this is nothing new, so the author in question is merely repeating the obvious.



Phred




Translation: You've got nothing. :wink:


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Happiness is a warm gun...


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OfflinePhred
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Re: The Lie of the Free Market [Re: unbeliever]
    #7831777 - 01/04/08 12:25 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

What's to get?

No rational person will dispute that the US government over the last couple of centuries has enacted legislation which distorts the marketplace. At least, no honest rational person will dispute that. Therefore, no honest rational person (myself, for example) can dispute the premise of the thread title -- that to call the US economy a free market is to lie. The US economy is indeed not a free market today and many will argue that it never was a 100% free market at any time.

So, the author of this book has noticed that government legislation affecting economic transactions results in distortions of the market which benefit some and economically and harm others. Big whoop! That makes him no different from every competent economist of the last two centuries at least. For that matter, it makes him no different from 90% of the regular posters in this forum.




Phred


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: The Lie of the Free Market [Re: Phred]
    #7831868 - 01/04/08 01:04 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
What's to get?

No rational person will dispute that the US government over the last couple of centuries has enacted legislation which distorts the marketplace. At least, no honest rational person will dispute that. Therefore, no honest rational person (myself, for example) can dispute the premise of the thread title -- that to call the US economy a free market is to lie. The US economy is indeed not a free market today and many will argue that it never was a 100% free market at any time.

So, the author of this book has noticed that government legislation affecting economic transactions results in distortions of the market which benefit some and economically and harm others. Big whoop! That makes him no different from every competent economist of the last two centuries at least. For that matter, it makes him no different from 90% of the regular posters in this forum.




Phred




Do you think there is any plausible way to make this more widely known, and more importantly, more widely understood? Is there a solution to the problem? What are the inevitable outcomes of a continued trend based on these policies? That's what I was hoping to get out of this thread. Ideas for change, opinions on possible outcomes, and hell even a little good old fashioned shared anger. :P


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Happiness is a warm gun...


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OfflinePhred
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Re: The Lie of the Free Market [Re: unbeliever]
    #7831894 - 01/04/08 01:13 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Do you think there is any plausible way to make this more widely known, and more importantly, more widely understood?




I doubt it.

Quote:

Is there a solution to the problem?




Sure. Elect politicians who stick most closely to Capitalist tenets and reject those who favor Socialist/Nanny Statist tenets.

Quote:

What are the inevitable outcomes of a continued trend based on these policies?




Steadily decreasing prosperity of the average citizen.




Phred


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The Lie of the Free Market [Re: Phred]
    #7832082 - 01/04/08 02:06 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Somehow I get the feeling from unbeliever that a more free market isn't his idea of a solution. Just a hunch.


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: The Lie of the Free Market [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7832163 - 01/04/08 02:30 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Somehow I get the feeling from unbeliever that a more free market isn't his idea of a solution. Just a hunch.




I'm not really sure. Right now it's not a free market and it favors a very small percentage of people and corporations. If given the choice between a not-free market that favors the top % and one that is more equitable, I definitely favor the latter.

Would a more, truly free, market ultimately be beneficial for everybody? Of course not, by nature it can't be as only the top performers will see the bulk of the profits/power. So inevitably we are left again with the problem of redistribution of wealth. Some cry in horror words like "socialism" and "communism" and to a certain extent I agree, pure communism will never work with humans. Socialism I'm not sure about, too many variables about application, demographics, population, logistics and manageability arise when looking at a system as large as the U.S. That's partly why I'm not a big fan of the federal government other than as a body to maintain certain essential standards necessary to freedom and trade.

"Free" markets are a powerful idea however and a lot can be gained from them. But not everything. It's not the solution to all of our problems.


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InvisibleCowgold
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Re: The Lie of the Free Market [Re: Phred]
    #7835192 - 01/05/08 11:42 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
What's to get?



So, the author of this book has noticed that government legislation affecting economic transactions results in distortions of the market which benefit some and economically and harm others. Big whoop! That makes him no different from every competent economist of the last two centuries at least. For that matter, it makes him no different from 90% of the regular posters in this forum.




Phred




:strokebeard:


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OfflineGnosticWarrior
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Re: The Lie of the Free Market [Re: unbeliever]
    #7835473 - 01/05/08 12:58 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Actually corporations are not the problem, Democracy is. Free Market = Capitalism, which is practiced more truthfully by corporations and those who command them vs. Fed, state, and county govt's and those who believe in unionization and the political process.

The truth is,(couldn't find the statistics) that 10% of the population owns 70% of the wealth in the U.S. So it this is a fair statement, then it also means that the bottom 90% has the majority of votes in our system of Democracy. One man, one vote regarless of taxes contributed to the finance of govt. In a perfect system could be created, we could argue if voting power should be based on taxes contributed as a perentage of income, wealth, or in absolute terms.

In corporations, their voting to me seems more fair, which is based on number of shares owned. Those who have a bigger stake in the company have a bigger say. This is fair! Democracy is not. Yes all men are created equal, but as far as govt. and taxes are concerned, some pay more and some less, so the voting power of each individual cannot be the same.

The funny part, is that the world's third richest man, Warren Buffett and top capitalist, testified in congress to increase the Estate Tax for the super rich. As a percentage of income, he pays less taxes percentage wise than those who work in his company.




Could it be that compared to the top 10%, the bottom 90% are not as educated or have the ability to make sound decisions? They control the votes. You wonder why they're not voting for Ron Paul and for smaller govt. Seems that big govt. is not working for them. Capitalist don't like big govt. either, but it if it happens at least the top 10% can lobby or hire the best attorneys and accountants to make big govt. work in their favor.

So the problem is democracy and the bottom 90% believing that who they elect can help them in their lives, vs. themselves. The best govt. can do is stay out of your hair. I think the bottom 90% actually want govt. to come meddle in.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The Lie of the Free Market [Re: GnosticWarrior]
    #7835554 - 01/05/08 01:17 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Buffet is being somewhat disingenuous about how much he pays in taxes. He pays the capital gains tax (15%) personally on his investment profits but those investment profits have already been taxed at about the 35% corporate tax rate before they even get to him. Further, the FICA taxes are capped for everybody, thus making his percentage infinitesimal, but then so are the benefits.


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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: The Lie of the Free Market [Re: unbeliever]
    #7835584 - 01/05/08 01:22 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

The 'bottom 90%' in america are as rich as the top 10% in the world. The free market has made them the richest poor people in the world. (Also, it has made the richest rich people in the world)

Comparing the 'poor' in america to the rich should be done by looking at what resources are available not the gap between rich and poor. How rich bill gates is doesnt effect me. If he got twice as rich, the gap would grow twice as large... but I can still afford the same things. My standard of living is unchanged. The point is, if the rich get richer the poor usually get richer too. Its a simple task to look where there are alot of rich people and there the poor are better off than the poor anywhere else.

When somebody looks at how rich the richest people are instead of what resources are available to the poor it betrays the fact that they only wish to harm the rich not help the poor. So instead of having compassion for the poor, they seem to have resentment for the rich.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The Lie of the Free Market [Re: DieCommie]
    #7835624 - 01/05/08 01:29 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
So instead of having compassion for the poor, they seem to have resentment for the rich.




Very true.


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: The Lie of the Free Market [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7835839 - 01/05/08 02:26 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

I think we should declare a state of anarchy starting tommorrow morning and use seashells are WAMPUM... or currency.

That's my soution to everything.


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: The Lie of the Free Market [Re: unbeliever]
    #7837686 - 01/05/08 11:01 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Ah, the good ole 'Invisible Hand' which is supposed to guide free markets in distributing capital wherever needed.

Just remember, if you're always looking for the invisible hand to guide you, you will find that the invisible hand often gives you the invisible finger.


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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