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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 648
Anyone ever tried a THIN layer of verm on your coir casing after spawn as CO2 barrier?
    #7823614 - 01/02/08 12:40 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

After breaking up your Rye jars, and mixing them in coir/verm/gypsum, why not add a thin layer on top to keep out contams while colonizing/incubating?

Sort of like a verm barrier on a BRF jar.

Could be saturated to help keep moisture in, and a layer of wax paper added to help keep contams off the verm.

In a week or two, when the thin verm layer is 100% colonized, you could dunk, case, and fruit.


Edited by Captain Cubensis (01/03/08 03:42 PM)


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OfflineCiv
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Re: Anyone ever tried a layer of verm on your coir casing after spawn. [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7823655 - 01/02/08 12:51 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Because you shake grains. :smile:

Do it one way first, then experiment.


--------------------
"...Gal's seem to hate the thought of blending chicken shit in a blender.
So, wash it well afterwards & DON'T tell them..."  -Agar


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Registered: 09/18/07
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Re: Anyone ever tried a layer of verm on your coir casing after spawn. [Re: Civ]
    #7823702 - 01/02/08 01:01 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

No I mean this, colonize your rye jars, shake if you want, then when 100% colonized, spawn it 1 to 3 to coir/vermiculite/gypsum to a depth of 4 inches. Then add a thin (1/8in) layer of verm, dampen, then cover with wax paper and incubate until 100% colonized.

When 100% colonized, remove from incubation, case and place.

Not verm on the top of uncolonized jars.


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Invisibleshaggydogman
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Registered: 04/20/07
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Re: Anyone ever tried a layer of verm on your coir casing after spawn. [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7823806 - 01/02/08 01:31 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Wouldn't the wet verm be a casing layer?

Wet verm would also wick contaminants, like in a pf tek jar when it gets wet.


--------------------
Rye -- WBS | Grain LC -- G2G | Bulk -- Monotub | 50/50 -- Late Casing -- A Pinning Strategy
Disclaimer: My opinion is subject to change at short notice subject to but not limited by new information and knowledge being made available.


Edited by shaggydogman (01/02/08 01:32 PM)


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InvisibleRoadkillM
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Re: Anyone ever tried a layer of verm on your coir casing after spawn. [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7823816 - 01/02/08 01:34 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Captain Cubensis said:

Then add a thin (1/8in) layer of verm, dampen, then cover with wax paper and incubate until 100% colonized.

When 100% colonized, remove from incubation, case and place.







why would the Verm colonize?

it won't!~


the wet verm layer would be considered a casing layer.


your confused.



tc


--------------------
Laterz, Road

Who the hell you callin crazy?
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Brainiac said:
PM the names with on there names, that means they have mushrooms for sale.



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OfflineNibin
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Re: Anyone ever tried a layer of verm on your coir casing after spawn. [Re: Roadkill]
    #7823896 - 01/02/08 02:02 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Basically you would be just casing the substrate early and probably creating pinning conditions too early.


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 648
Re: Anyone ever tried a layer of verm on your coir casing after spawn. [Re: shaggydogman]
    #7827503 - 01/03/08 01:35 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

shaggydogman said:
Wouldn't the wet verm be a casing layer?

Wet verm would also wick contaminants, like in a pf tek jar when it gets wet.




Not really, look at it this way, many peeps mix verm in with their coir/gypsum. Surely the presence of verm does not make a casing.

The thin layer may wick contams, but it it weren't there, contams would land straight on the sub, or the wax paper.

So if it does wick, it would actually slow the contam down, versus landing right on moist coir.

The verm barrier is no different to a layer of wax paper in theory, expect it will provide water to the casing as it colonizes the bulk sub.

Verm is only a casing when exposed to the FC when 20-30% colonized, in my opinion. If the verm is 100% colonized, it is substrate, no different then the verm mixed in the coir/gypsum.

Thanks for the replies all, great discussion.


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: Anyone ever tried a layer of verm on your coir casing after spawn. [Re: Roadkill]
    #7827521 - 01/03/08 01:38 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Roadkill said:
Quote:

Captain Cubensis said:

Then add a thin (1/8in) layer of verm, dampen, then cover with wax paper and incubate until 100% colonized.

When 100% colonized, remove from incubation, case and place.







why would the Verm colonize?

it won't!~


the wet verm layer would be considered a casing layer.


your confused.



tc




What kind of verm do you use that a 1/8 inch layer won't colonize if left to incubate, covered in wax paper.

I use the fine horticulture grade cause I can get it easy, it's almost like large sand.

It colonizes easily if given time.

Hell, isn't that a sign to place in the FC, when the casing layer is 20-30% colonized?

I am talking about using the thin verm layer as a contam barrier and moisture res while the BS colonizes.


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OfflineBanjoMojo
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Re: Anyone ever tried a layer of verm on your coir casing after spawn. [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7827546 - 01/03/08 01:45 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

I think what some of the folks were trying to say is that by adding that extra verm layer for moisture, you would be in effect, casing too soon. By having a moisture locking barrier, you would be providing pinning conditions before the substrate was even fully colonized.

And I use the same kind of verm that you use, so I know what you're talking about.


--------------------
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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Anyone ever tried a layer of verm on your coir casing after spawn. [Re: BanjoMojo]
    #7827874 - 01/03/08 03:03 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

You're making a verm casing layer and calling it a barrier. Many growers apply casing layers at different times, and some even apply the casing at the time the bulk substrate is spawned.

Contaminants will easily germinate on damp verm, and then spread their mycelium to your substrate below. The verm barrier works in pf jars because it's dry. In addition, nothing 'wicks' contaminants, verm or no verm.

Proper procedures of pasteurization and air exchange are the keys to avoiding contaminants in substrate trays. Sterility and good filtering are the keys to avoiding contaminants during spawn production. It's important not to confuse the two.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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Invisibleshaggydogman
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Registered: 04/20/07
Posts: 672
Re: Anyone ever tried a layer of verm on your coir casing after spawn. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7827930 - 01/03/08 03:16 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
In addition, nothing 'wicks' contaminants, verm or no verm.




When I use the term 'wick' I was thinking bacteria rather than molds. Perhaps wick is the wrong word.
Would airbourne bacteria be able to land on and then pass through wet verm to get to the sub?


--------------------
Rye -- WBS | Grain LC -- G2G | Bulk -- Monotub | 50/50 -- Late Casing -- A Pinning Strategy
Disclaimer: My opinion is subject to change at short notice subject to but not limited by new information and knowledge being made available.


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Offlinexeallos
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Re: Anyone ever tried a layer of verm on your coir casing after spawn. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7827960 - 01/03/08 03:23 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
You're making a verm casing layer and calling it a barrier. Many growers apply casing layers at different times, and some even apply the casing at the time the bulk substrate is spawned.

Contaminants will easily germinate on damp verm, and then spread their mycelium to your substrate below. The verm barrier works in pf jars because it's dry. In addition, nothing 'wicks' contaminants, verm or no verm.

Proper procedures of pasteurization and air exchange are the keys to avoiding contaminants in substrate trays. Sterility and good filtering are the keys to avoiding contaminants during spawn production. It's important not to confuse the two.
RR




Heed these words. Also, something I would like to quite from an older post by RR concerning Casing substrates:

Quote:

RogerRabbit said: We use lime to raise the pH only for the reason that mushroom mycelium is more tolerant of a high pH than mold mycelium is. Both mushroom and mold mycelium grow best in a pH of around 5.5 to 6, but since mushroom mycelium can tolerate the higher pH, we do that so our casing layer favors it over molds.




Without a PH buffer and with damp verm, this sounds like substrate suicide to me.


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 648
Re: Anyone ever tried a layer of verm on your coir casing after spawn. [Re: xeallos]
    #7828000 - 01/03/08 03:33 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Thanks, I get it. It's a casing no matter what you call it.

But still, the bulk sub is 40% moist verm anyway, so a thin layer on top would hardly induce fruiting conditions, with no sun, no air exchange, and high CO2, nor would it increase the contam rate if pasteurized like the rest of the sub.

Basically it sounds like you are saying, moist vermiculite is prone to contams, but 50% coir, 40% verm, and 10% gypsum is not prone to contams.

Would a tray of damp 100% verm contam faster than a tray of damp 100% coir? 50/50? 50/40/10?

Thanks for all the input though, I appreciate the ideas and different ways of looking at things.


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 648
Re: Anyone ever tried a layer of verm on your coir casing after spawn. [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7828002 - 01/03/08 03:34 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Plus casing layers are usually more than 1/8 of an inch right?

How about a CO2 barrier? Keeps it inside the sub, which promotes vegatative growth.


Edited by Captain Cubensis (01/03/08 03:42 PM)


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 648
Re: Anyone ever tried a layer of verm on your coir casing after spawn. [Re: Roadkill]
    #7833111 - 01/04/08 07:05 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Roadkill said:
Quote:

Captain Cubensis said:

Then add a thin (1/8in) layer of verm, dampen, then cover with wax paper and incubate until 100% colonized.

When 100% colonized, remove from incubation, case and place.







why would the Verm colonize?

it won't!~


the wet verm layer would be considered a casing layer.


your confused.



tc




About 10-15% of the verm has colonized after 3 days, so says my friend anyway, maybe he is lying.


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