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InvisibleveggieM

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Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK]
    #7820999 - 01/01/08 06:12 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief
January 1, 2008 - telegraph.co.uk

A police chief came under fresh criticism last night after suggesting that the drug ecstasy is less dangerous than aspirin.

Richard Brunstrom, the chief constable of North Wales, made the claim as he repeated his call for drugs to be decriminalised.

Mr Brunstrom made a formal submission last year to a Home Office review advocating the legalisation of illegal drugs, such as heroin and cocaine. The Government rejected that call, but Mr Brunstrom yesterday kept up his campaign on the Today programme on BBC Radio 4.

"The prohibition regime does not work. It transfers billions of pounds of our money into the hands of organised criminals," he said.

"Legalisation and subsequent regulation of proscribed drugs is inevitable," he added, predicting that the change could come in 10 years' time.

The chief constable said that some illegal drugs were less dangerous than over-the-counter drugs including aspirin.

He said: "Ecstasy is a remarkably safe substance, far safer than aspirin. It is far less dangerous than tobacco or alcohol, both of which are freely available."

There have been more than 200 ecstasy-related deaths in Britain since 1996, according to the Home Office. An article in the British Medical Journal last year put the risk of death from using the drug as high as one in 2,000 for first-time users.

Mr Brunstrom won the broad support of his police authority last year for his views on decriminalisation, but the Government has repeatedly rebuffed his suggestion.

A Home Office spokesman said yesterday: "Ecstasy can and does kill unpredictably - there is no such thing as a 'safe dose'. The Government firmly believes that ecstasy should remain a Class A drug."

He added: "The Government is opposed to the legalisation of drugs which would increase drug-related harm and break both international and domestic law."

David Davis, the shadow home secretary, accused Mr Brunstrom of offering "simplistic and convenient solutions" to drug abuse.

He said: "One reason that the Government's drugs policy has failed in the past 10 years is because of the confused and ill thought-out attitudes of both the Government and some senior policemen.

"If you thoughtlessly downgrade cannabis or treat dangerous drugs as 'no worse than aspirin', you make a gift to the drug dealers and criminals who are destroying the lives of so many young people."

There have been several calls for Mr Brunstrom's resignation. A petition last year on the Downing Street website that called for him to quit received more than 3,000 signatures.

Critics have called him "the mad mullah of the traffic Taliban" because of his enthusiasm for speed cameras and his tough line on speeding.

In November, a police watchdog criticised the way he showed photos of a decapitated motorcyclist without the permission of the victim's family.

He has also investigated Tony Blair, the former Prime Minister, and Anne Robinson, the television presenter, for allegedly making anti-Welsh remarks.

Those inquiries led to nothing, and led to claims that Mr Brunstrom was misusing police resources.

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Offlinefantastical
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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: veggie]
    #7821460 - 01/01/08 08:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

What an awsome police officer. Reckless drivers are more dangerous than people smoking joints, or dancing all night. And legalizing drugs is NOT a gift to drug dealers...this ruins their ability to make a living. That is how to stop drug dealers...make them pointless.
I really hope this guy keeps his job.

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OfflineAmblerG
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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: fantastical]
    #7821588 - 01/01/08 08:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fantastical said:
I really hope this guy keeps his job.



agreed!!

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Offlinefapjack
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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: AmblerG]
    #7822012 - 01/01/08 10:57 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Safer than aspirin my ass. Whens the last time you made out with your best friend, who happens to also be a guy, after eating aspirin? I rest my case.


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OfflineReposadoXochipilli
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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: fapjack]
    #7822042 - 01/01/08 11:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fapjack said:
Safer than aspirin my ass.  Whens the last time you made out with your best friend, who happens to also be a guy, after eating aspirin?  I rest my case.



Making out didn't hurt you did it? I rest my case :grin:


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OfflineTHEBats
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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: AmblerG]
    #7822094 - 01/01/08 11:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I don't know about less dangerous then aspirin... but oh well still nice to hear a police officer talking positively about drugs.

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: fapjack]
    #7822110 - 01/01/08 11:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fapjack said:
Whens the last time you made out with your best friend, who happens to also be a guy, after eating aspirin?




Empathogenic drugs like ecstasy can sometimes bring out latent homosexual tendencies, but for most people it's not a problem.

Maybe you should take more time to explore your sexuality, rather than having it pop out of the closet on you when you least expect it to.


-FF

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OfflineVisionary Tools
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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: fapjack]
    #7822702 - 01/02/08 05:52 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fapjack said:
Safer than aspirin my ass. Whens the last time you made out with your best friend, who happens to also be a guy, after eating aspirin? I rest my case.




What's more dangerous. Making out with someone of the same sex, or stomach ulcers and haemorrhages?


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7822744 - 01/02/08 06:36 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Visionary Tools said:
What's more dangerous. Making out with someone of the same sex, or stomach ulcers and haemorrhages?




Let's not go there. AIDS and STD rates amongst homosexuals make that a much less easily answered question than the rhetorical question that you intended to ask.


-FF

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Offliner311ik
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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: fapjack]
    #7822764 - 01/02/08 06:55 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fapjack said:
Safer than aspirin my ass. Whens the last time you made out with your best friend, who happens to also be a guy, after eating aspirin? I rest my case.





the E didnt make you gay. stop using it as an excuse.

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OfflineVisionary Tools
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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: fastfred]
    #7822770 - 01/02/08 06:57 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
Quote:

Visionary Tools said:
What's more dangerous. Making out with someone of the same sex, or stomach ulcers and haemorrhages?




Let's not go there. AIDS and STD rates amongst homosexuals make that a much less easily answered question than the rhetorical question that you intended to ask.


-FF




From kissing? *giggle*


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7822801 - 01/02/08 07:19 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Visionary Tools said:
From kissing? *giggle*




You'd be surprised by the nasties you can pick up from swapping spit.

Exchanging bodily fluids isn't something to be taken too lightly. Herpes and HPV induced warts come to mind. Both can be orally transmitted and are permanent and incurable. Syphilis and gonorrhea can also be transmitted by mouth.

That's just the nasty STDs, there are plenty of other diseases, like mono, that are spread by kissing.


-FF

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InvisibleBridgeburner
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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: fastfred]
    #7823383 - 01/02/08 11:37 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

hey man if you're gay don't blame it on ecstasy. be a MAN.

lol


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InvisibleAtheist
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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: fastfred]
    #7824193 - 01/02/08 03:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
Quote:

fapjack said:
Whens the last time you made out with your best friend, who happens to also be a guy, after eating aspirin?




Empathogenic drugs like ecstasy can sometimes bring out latent homosexual tendencies, but for most people it's not a problem.

Maybe you should take more time to explore your sexuality, rather than having it pop out of the closet on you when you least expect it to.


-FF




hahahahaha

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OfflineShroooomerToo
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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: Atheist]
    #7824437 - 01/02/08 05:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You'd be surprised at how many people actually die of aspirin per year. He stated that since 1996 (year 2008 now, so thats 12 years), in a period of 12 years, there have been roughly about 200 deaths related to this drug.
But in ONE single year, as many as 8000 people have died using Aspirin.

So from that, I would definitely say that X is a FAR safer drug than Aspirin. If you abuse them, they will get you, but if you use them safely, than you will be fine. And thats with all drugs as a matter of fact.



Research Aspirin and drug related deaths if you don't believe me.


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Offlinefapjack
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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: ShroooomerToo]
    #7824867 - 01/02/08 06:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I was kidding, but seriously how the fuck can you say that ecstasy is safer than aspirin? Does aspirin effect the way you drive, do people cook aspirin in their basement? Do people sell aspirin mixed with meth? How many people have a heart attack after eating 1 aspirin? How many people get water poisoning on aspirin? I can go on and on, I'm not going to say aspirin is safe, but its fucking safer than an illegal drug with no controls whatsoever. Also, a lot of the people that die from APAP/NSAIDS do so because of user error. If you took ecstasy in large amounts everyday of your life, I doubt you'd be in any better shape than the idiot that washes down 20 aspirin everyday with a bottle of Jim Beam.
This police officer is a fucking idiot, he is not a pharmacologist and just because he read a wikipedia article on the dangers of ecstasy doesn't make him an expert. I'm sure I'm going to get flamed, but realize this, I still eat ecstasy and a lot of other drugs I know have dangers. I accept those dangers, and try to minimize them. Denying that the dangers exist is stupid, and will only worsen the situation.


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InvisibleBridgeburner
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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: fapjack]
    #7824899 - 01/02/08 07:04 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

This police officer is a fucking idiot, he is not a pharmacologist and just because he read a wikipedia article on the dangers of ecstasy doesn't make him an expert




are you kidding? he's a police officer and i bet he's seen more people under e in various circumstances and its effects than you so what are you talking about?


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Offlinefapjack
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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #7825025 - 01/02/08 07:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I could care less how many people he saw under the influence of E. I've been in the rave scene for almost 10 years so I bet I've seen more people then him anyway. It still doesn't make me or him an expert, the fact of the matter is that ecstasy might not be anywhere near as dangerous as some other drugs, it isn't safe. It has risks, which are greatly amplified by the fact that it is illegal. I really am curious as to how he came up with this conclusion anyway. Just because NSAIDs kill more people each year then ecstasy doesn't mean ecstasy is safer. You have to consider many factors. If you want me to break it down, I will, but common sense tells you that aspirin is much safer than ecstasy.


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InvisibleBridgeburner
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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: fapjack]
    #7825112 - 01/02/08 07:59 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

every person is different so both of your opinions are really unimportant, at least imo. i trust him over you, if given a choice though.


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #7825172 - 01/02/08 08:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Fapjack, since the cops statistics and reasoning aren't good enough for you, then you need to produce your own and not just keep talking out your ass.

We're arguing over something that is a plain fact and easy to prove one way or another. Deaths / Used doses = Danger. It's as simple as that, if you can't produce the data then you really need to realize how pointless it is to argue over such a simple statistical matter.

Now if the cop had said it was safer than alcohol or tobacco, we wouldn't need to argue over it because it is plain that both cause far more deaths per user than ecstasy.


-FF

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Offlineusefulidiot13
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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: veggie]
    #7825323 - 01/02/08 08:44 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

id consider aspirin safer.

ecstasy has NEVER given me any negative effects though. even the comedown is pretty easy for me as long as there isnt a noticible amount of speed mixed in.


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What Would Dexter Do?

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Offlinefapjack
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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: usefulidiot13]
    #7825697 - 01/02/08 10:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Well, Americans consumed 80 million tablets of aspirin everyday. I read that 500 people each year die as a direct result of eating aspirin, usually suicide or accidental (child ingestion). I read that in 2001 anywhere from 67-100 people died from ecstasy in the US. So if 3 million people took ecstasy in 2001 on a regular basis (not the case) then if only 15 million people took aspirin in 2001 (number is much, much higher) then they kill a equal % of their users. I can't get a lot of the data i want to show this, and even if I could it would be way to big of a pain in the ass to compile it. Ecstasy can kill someone after ingesting 1 pill, and though it is pretty rare, it does happen. The vast majority of the people that die from Aspirin, do it to commit suicide. If you take aspirin one time, you are much less likely to die then if you take ecstasy. If you drive while on aspirin, you are much less likely to get into a car accident then if you took ecstasy. Aspirin is controlled by the FDA, ecstasy is controlled by drug dealers that are more concerned with your money usually than your safety. Aspirin is always sold as what it is, in a controlled dose, ecstasy is never a controlled dose and contents vary from pill to pill. This discussion is stupid, I'm done arguing. If you want to be stupid, believe whatever the fuck you want to. This is common sense, and I refuse to waste several hours to prove my point compiling the information. If you don't believe me, you search through google.


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OfflineTHEBats
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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: fapjack]
    #7825993 - 01/02/08 11:57 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

besides the fact that any drug that causes intoxication increases the risks of taking it...

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OfflineShroooomerToo
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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: fapjack]
    #7826293 - 01/03/08 02:07 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fapjack said:
Well, Americans consumed 80 million tablets of aspirin everyday. I read that 500 people each year die as a direct result of eating aspirin, usually suicide or accidental (child ingestion). I read that in 2001 anywhere from 67-100 people died from ecstasy in the US.




Mate, do your research again, its completely false.

You say that only 500 people die per year from DIRECT result of EATING Aspirin, but then say they die form suicide (which is not a direct cause of death by ASPIRIN), please, we don't need any more jokers here in Shroomery. Yes, maybe 500 people have died in 1 year from ASPIRIN in one little local town, but NOT IN ALL OF USA. The minimum ever recorded of deaths in ALL of USA from ASPIRIN was something like 6500. Compare that to X, which is about 100 per year, and that is from Overheating because that person did not know enough about it (IF it was legal, there would be instructions on how to take it and how much water to drink per body weight, blah blah), OR drinking too much water (REFER to my previous sentence) or taking TOO many pills that contain more SPEED than actual MDMA in them.

LEGALIZE X, and you will see a HUGE decline in deaths caused by it. ASPIRIN is already legalized, but look how many people die from using it, oh, and I thought the government was always right, and was always meant to take care of us.

fapjack, grow the fuck up, or wait until you at least hit puberty before you start posting here.

EDIT: Sorry, I forgot to get the quote that now is at the top of my post...


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Edited by ShroooomerToo (01/03/08 02:12 AM)

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Offlinefapjack
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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: ShroooomerToo]
    #7826608 - 01/03/08 08:04 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I swear some of the people on the shroomery are so fucking stupid. Just because you use a drug doesn't mean its safe. I used to hear asshats all the time preach the safety of medical grade heroin as well, but guess what, I've never seen medical grade heroin in my life. MDMA has so many dangers associated with it that aspirin doesn't have. Another thing you people are failing to realize is that aspirin is used by people of all ages, and probably used much more by elderly people. What % of ecstasy use is by senior citizens? What % is used by children under 12?

Also, as to the # of deaths each year caused by aspirin being 6500, I would really like a source for that. I got 16500 for all NSAIDs, but the only # I could find for aspirin was from several sources that didn't cite a crediable source.

Why don't you prove your point, as I said I really don't feel like wasting any more time on such a stupid discussion. Go argue with a stick.


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Edited by fapjack (01/03/08 08:14 AM)

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: fapjack]
    #7828337 - 01/03/08 04:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I think ShroooomerToo has presented better statistics and more sound reasoning.

You can't include auto related accidents while on E, just like you wouldn't test for aspirin at car wrecks. You also can't count polydrug users, which the majority of user deaths are. You also can't count dehydration deaths, which are also a majority. You also can't count deaths that were from speed or other drugs sold as E, because we're only talking about the safety of E here.

So in the end it looks like the E deaths are highly inflated from any basis in reality. If you took numbers from scientific studies on E back when it was used in psychotherapy you'd probably find... guess what ZERO deaths.

Just because a drug is highly psychoactive doesn't mean that it's dangerous. Some people just can't seem to wrap their minds around that fact. I'm always hearing ignorant anti-drug zealots talk about how dangerous LSD, mushrooms, and salvia are. In fact, LSD has one of the highest safety margins of any drug known to man.

Ecstasy is a safe drug, do the research. In clinical or responsible use settings it is a VERY safe drug to use. Almost all E deaths are prohibition related and that's what people need to start keeping track of. Prohibition related deaths would almost certainly top all drug related deaths each year. Once people start to realize that and take it into account society will eventually have to change.


-FF

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OfflineTHEBats
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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: fastfred]
    #7828686 - 01/03/08 06:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
I think ShroooomerToo has presented better statistics and more sound reasoning.

You can't include auto related accidents while on E, just like you wouldn't test for aspirin at car wrecks. You also can't count polydrug users, which the majority of user deaths are. You also can't count dehydration deaths, which are also a majority. You also can't count deaths that were from speed or other drugs sold as E, because we're only talking about the safety of E here.

So in the end it looks like the E deaths are highly inflated from any basis in reality. If you took numbers from scientific studies on E back when it was used in psychotherapy you'd probably find... guess what ZERO deaths.

Just because a drug is highly psychoactive doesn't mean that it's dangerous. Some people just can't seem to wrap their minds around that fact. I'm always hearing ignorant anti-drug zealots talk about how dangerous LSD, mushrooms, and salvia are. In fact, LSD has one of the highest safety margins of any drug known to man.

Ecstasy is a safe drug, do the research. In clinical or responsible use settings it is a VERY safe drug to use. Almost all E deaths are prohibition related and that's what people need to start keeping track of. Prohibition related deaths would almost certainly top all drug related deaths each year. Once people start to realize that and take it into account society will eventually have to change.


-FF




You forget to take into account the limited time span x has in psychotherapy. Only time will tell. Also I don't see point in bringing up lsd and shrooms. We're talking about x here.

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: THEBats]
    #7829478 - 01/03/08 08:38 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

We are only talking about acute effects of the drug, not long-term issues. The long-term has been studied BTW, with no major ill effects found.

I also only brought up LSD and mushrooms because the same reasoning is used by people trying to say that they are dangerous, when in fact they are amongst the safest drugs known to man.

E may not have quite as large of a safety margin, but it's widely been proven to be safe at normal dosages. And it does have a pretty good safety margin as well.

It's well known amongst anyone who's studied it that E is a safe drug with no real physical downsides from the drug it's self. The question we are debating is weather it's safer than aspirin.


-FF

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Offlinefapjack
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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: fastfred]
    #7829540 - 01/03/08 08:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ecstasy is a safe drug, do the research. In clinical or responsible use settings it is a VERY safe drug to use. Almost all E deaths are prohibition related and that's what people need to start keeping track of. Prohibition related deaths would almost certainly top all drug related deaths each year. Once people start to realize that and take it into account society will eventually have to change.




This is my point exactly, ALMOST NO ONE TAKES ECSTASY IN A FUCKING CLINICAL SETTING. ALMOST NO ONE IS TAKING USP MDMA. Even if it was different, I would still say aspirin is safer. The long term effects of ecstasy aren't even known, so thats another potential danger. If you want to leave out dangers that aren't a direct result of the drug, then you still have to consider the amount of aspirin people eat each year, and every single day. Since there is no fucking data on people eating ecstasy everyday for 20 years, I fail to see how you can say aspirin is more dangerous. Millions of people take aspirin every single day, multiply times a week, for their entire lives. You can't look at the # of deaths of either drug and conclude anything. I do know this, I don't have to change the plans of my day when I eat a fucking Bayer. I'm going over the same points, and you will believe whatever the fuck you want to, mainly because your a moron. I am not an anti-drug zealot, but I know what dangers. Believe whatever you want, and I really do hope you are trolling me, because I really can't believe people that dumb post in the shroomery.


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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: fapjack]
    #7829860 - 01/03/08 10:04 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

> The long term effects of ecstasy aren't even known

They are. E has been in general use since the 80's, and there are a couple long-term studies that have been published. Amongst heavy polydrug users they have found a slight cognitive decline. Obviously that's to be expected amongst heavy polydrug users.

I'm curious if you're just getting bad information on phantom dangers or if this is the result of some personal traumatic experience? (such as making out with your friend and discovering your latent homosexuality)

I tire of this discussion, as it seems that the data is not there to reach a conclusion or everyone's too lazy to do the research.

#1 Ecstasy is safe at normal dosages
#2 Aspirin kills more people each year than MDMA
#3 Most Ecstasy-related deaths are caused by prohibition rather than the drug itself
#4 Having aspirin illegal would save more lives than criminalizing ecstasy has.

Based on these facts it is reasonable for a non-scientist, like the cop, to make the statement that ecstasy is less dangerous than aspirin.


-FF

P.S. Thanks for the against-the-rules flaming of me. I ask that you not be warned or banned because your childish antics often do more to make my points than anything I could come up with.


Edited by fastfred (01/03/08 10:10 PM)

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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: fastfred]
    #7831607 - 01/04/08 11:14 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Damn right.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: fastfred]
    #7831998 - 01/04/08 01:38 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
> The long term effects of ecstasy aren't even known

They are. E has been in general use since the 80's, and there are a couple long-term studies that have been published. Amongst heavy polydrug users they have found a slight cognitive decline. Obviously that's to be expected amongst heavy polydrug users.

I'm curious if you're just getting bad information on phantom dangers or if this is the result of some personal traumatic experience? (such as making out with your friend and discovering your latent homosexuality)

I tire of this discussion, as it seems that the data is not there to reach a conclusion or everyone's too lazy to do the research.

#1 Ecstasy is safe at normal dosages
#2 Aspirin kills more people each year than MDMA
#3 Most Ecstasy-related deaths are caused by prohibition rather than the drug itself
#4 Having aspirin illegal would save more lives than criminalizing ecstasy has.

Based on these facts it is reasonable for a non-scientist, like the cop, to make the statement that ecstasy is less dangerous than aspirin.


-FF

P.S. Thanks for the against-the-rules flaming of me. I ask that you not be warned or banned because your childish antics often do more to make my points than anything I could come up with.






#2: Even if that's true it's irrelevant because millions more people take aspirin everyday without ill effects than do mdma.

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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: THEBats]
    #7833328 - 01/04/08 07:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

THEBats said:
#2: Even if that's true it's irrelevant because millions more people take aspirin everyday without ill effects than do mdma.




But we're talking about "danger" not "safety".

LOL, ignore that. Seems that they have used danger and safety quite interchangeably throughout the article.

Anyways, a substance is more dangerous if it kills more people each year. The total danger of something must take into account how common it is. The safety of something implies what your chances are if you choose to participate.

Ahh semantics... Anyhow, the statement "Aspirin kills more people than ecstasy each year," is a valid talking point and helps put things into perspective.


-FF

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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: fastfred]
    #7834295 - 01/05/08 12:58 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You are talking out of your ass. There are no fucking long term studies on ecstasy that show its safe. Why don't you post some sources instead of spreading false information. Also, one thing you are not considering is that aspirin can save peoples lives due to cardiac arrest. Aspirin use saves more people each year then it kills, which honestly still doesn't change how dangerous it is, but it voids this stupid argument.
Quote:

#4 Having aspirin illegal would save more lives than criminalizing ecstasy has.




This argument is pointless, I listed all the factors why comparing the 2 is like comparing apples and oranges, but the fact remains taking 1 aspirin is safer than taking 1 e pill. If you believe otherwise you are either an idiot or in denial. As I said before, just because you like a chemical doesn't make it safe. Also, you can't just look at the number of people a chemical kills each year to determine saftey. I can make a decent argument of heroin being safer than aspirin too, doesn't make it a reality.


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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: fapjack]
    #7834412 - 01/05/08 02:54 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

> Also, you can't just look at the number of people a chemical kills each year to determine safety.

No, I quite clearly said that the number of people killed goes to it's danger, not it's safety.

Bees are more of a danger than sharks because they kill more people each year. However it's safer to run through a field of bees than to jump into a tank of sharks.

> If you believe otherwise you are either an idiot or in denial.

I sense you projecting your own inner loathing stemming from your inability to confront your latent homosexuality.

> the fact remains taking 1 aspirin is safer than taking 1 e pill.

Show me any human or animal study where someone has died from taking one dose of E. Since it hasn't happened it is at least equally as safe as aspirin in that context.

> I can make a decent argument of heroin being safer than aspirin too, doesn't make it a reality.

Where is all this drug snobbery coming from? Oh... That's right... your inability to deal with your latent homosexuality.

Anyways you've picked another relatively safe drug to argue the dangers of. Heroin and related opiates have a long history of use and are perfectly safe when used responsibly. In fact, almost all common street drugs are relatively safe. People wouldn't start using them if they presented much of a risk. It's drug abuse that kills. It's not the drug itself or responsible use that kills, just flagrant abuse and drug-drug interactions. All street drugs that I'm aware of have a decent margin of safety when used by themselves, in proper dosages, amongst healthy individuals.

> You are talking out of your ass.
> There are no fucking long term studies on ecstasy that show its safe.
> Why don't you post some sources instead of spreading false information.

Quote:

Dr. B. Sessa, Park Hospital, Oxford: Physiological studies involving infrequent and moderate doses of pure MDMA (as used in the psychotherapeutic setting) consistently demonstrate that the drug causes insignificant neurotoxicity, neuropsychological, mood or memory effects (Ludewig et al, 2003; Halpern et al, 2004).
[...]
All studies referred to by Drs Arnone and Schifano involve either recreational ecstasy users (mostly with no controls for other illegal drugs) or animal models with high and frequent dosage regimes that do not relate to those used for medically supervised MDMA psychotherapy research.




You are the one trying to make a claim without sources. If you want to claim it's dangerous then you need to provide a mortality study proving it. MDMA has been around and in common use since the 80's and no statistical analysis that I've seen has shown any increased mortality. In fact, the only thing they've shown is a slight cognitive decline in the heaviest of long-term poly drug users.

The fact that these users are still around with no significant damage or medical problems from their MDMA use refutes all the petri dish, microarray, and high-and-frequent dose primate studies you can come up with.


And BTW I'm not trying to flame you when I mention your latent homosexuality. It seems clear from your posts that MDMA brought out your latent homosexuality and because of that you insist on bashing E and anyone who does not share your hatred of it. I highly encourage you to deal with and confront it. I think you'll be a much better person for it in the end.


-FF

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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: fastfred]
    #7834475 - 01/05/08 03:42 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

someone needs a chill pill.


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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #7834584 - 01/05/08 06:21 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)



http://thedea.org/

Quote:

For every case where 'ecstasy' was present, there were about twenty marijuana-related cases. How can this be? Marijuana is extremely safe; the vast majority of these people were clearly not in medical danger. The explanation is that people on psychoactive drugs often come to the ER because they think something might be wrong; they get scared. With MDMA, a lot of 'got scared' stories appear to be happening as well. A study of ER admissions in the Netherlands found that, of the patients there for some complaint related to 'ecstasy', most (89%) did not require treatment beyond the initial visit/talk with a doctor.[1] Most ER cases also involve alcohol. [2]

From this data, the total rate of ER visits among 'ecstasy' users is approximately 1 in 600 users per year. If we assume that the experience of the Netherlands is comparable to that of the US, we might assume a rate of actual emergency medical problems associated with 'ecstasy' use of approximately 1 in 6,000 users per year. Numbers alone don't really tell the whole story, however: Where things get interesting is not how many users encounter medical problems, but why they do. The distribution of injuries and deaths is not random throughout the user population; it is associated with specific risk factors and behaviors.

Out of a total of 76 deaths involving MDMA reported in 2001, only 9 involved only MDMA. It seems unlikely that cannabis was a significant factor in deaths.

In a recent study in the UK, of 81 deaths where MDMA was present, only 6 died from simple MDMA toxicity.

The death rate for MDMA, assuming that there really were about 60 deaths directly caused by MDMA in 2000, would be roughly 2 in 100,000 users. The death rate from smoking, by contrast, is on the order of 400 per 100,000 users. Even alcohol, America's official "it's not really a drug" drug, nets about 50 deaths per 100,000 users each year:[3]





Looks like you lose fapjack. I'll be expecting your apology and concession speech shortly.


-FF

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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: fastfred]
    #7835303 - 01/05/08 12:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You sited a study on neurotoxicty on rats administered MDMA, and a memory study on humans (with no controls BTW). Why don't you read the studies you cite, instead of looking like an idiot posting them. These studies don't prove jack shit on the safety of MDMA use, and the fact that the one has almost no controls makes it pretty unscientific. I also fail to see a study listed on the long term psychological problems associated with MDMA use. I know a ton of people that had problems with serious depression after ecstasy use over a long period of time, and its common look on bluelight. This of course could have a direct correlation with methamphetamine in the pills, but meth bombs were pretty rare back then. No one knows the long term effects of MDMA use, there isn't enough studies and its hard to do studies like that anyway, because most people that use ecstasy use other drugs as well. Trust me when I say this to you, when you get a little bit older you realize that not all drugs are safe, drugs do have dangers, and just because someone thinks a drug is more dangerous than aspirin doesn't make him a drug war supporter.

Also, that chart you lists doesn't mean jack shit either. ER visits is not an indicator of physical harm, I've had many panic attacks from marijuana and none from MDMA. I wouldn't apologize to some stupid fucking noob that doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground. If I honestly thought that you knew what you were talking about, I would spend the hours proving you wrong, but since I think you are an idiot talking out of his ass, I won't. Keep thinking that aspirin is more dangerous than ecstasy, LOL.


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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: fapjack]
    #7836906 - 01/05/08 07:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I think the more salient point is that Prozac kills more and creates more emergency room visits people since they typically don't take it to kill themselves.

I think in terms of accute effects MDMA is probobly more dangerous than aspirin, but its how and how often that people use it that makes a big difference. MDMA is probobly safer than Adderal, but it is also an amphetamine.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #7837530 - 01/05/08 10:18 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

" but its how and how often that people use it that makes a big difference. "

good point,  my thoughts exactly  :thumbup:

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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #7837563 - 01/05/08 10:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The thing with prozac though, is that it is prescribed to a group of people that are much more likely to kill themselves in the first place. I understand it can cause depression, but the amount of people that would have otherwise not killed themselves if they weren't on it will never be known. Personally though, Paxil made me much more depressed then I was before I took it.


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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: fapjack]
    #7837618 - 01/05/08 10:38 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

same here, Paxil turned me into a madman - So glad Im off of that shit now

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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: fapjack]
    #7838485 - 01/06/08 08:51 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fapjack said:
You sited a study on neurotoxicty on rats administered MDMA, and a memory study on humans (with no controls BTW).
... These studies don't prove jack shit on the safety of MDMA use, and the fact that the one has almost no controls makes it pretty unscientific.
[ignorant drivel and pointless flaming deleted]





Each and every post you amaze me with the level of your scientific ignorance.

You want to rant about controls when it's apparent that you don't have any understanding of what you're talking about. I'm not really sure exactly what study you're complaining about. Most human MDMA studies are epidemiological studies. There is no control because it's a study, not an experiment.

http://www.thedea.com/

If you check out the link I provided you'll see the history of MDMA studies. It provides 160 footnotes from peer reviewed journals and the author is a biochemist that has reviewed roughly 1,500 MDMA related pieces of research.

If you want to see where your anti-MDMA rhetoric and imaginary dangers come from the site will provide you with the complete history and background of the government sponsored studies done by anti-drug shill pseudo-scientists.

http://thedea.org/neurotoxicity.html

I'll leave you with a quote...

Quote:

Ultimately, the question of Prohibition as a social policy comes down to some rather basic questions of how dangerous drugs really are, and how we can most effectively protect people from those dangers. These are questions that science can answer, and indeed, is answering. On almost a weekly basis, some new study comes out finding that prohibition has failed, or that the drugs they have deionized aren't nearly as sinister as we've been told. In the end, the drug war is winnable, and is being won...just not by the Prohibitionists. They lost the argument the day science and reason turned their attention to drugs and the drug problem and realized that the bigoted and simplistic answers the Prohibitionists were selling were irrational and impotent. We're winning the drug war because our side is the scientifically correct one. The truth favors us. All Prohibition has left is a rapidly depleting stockpile of ignorance and fear, and we will hunt down their lies one by one until there is nothing left for them to do but admit defeat.





Quote:

All fapjack has left is a rapidly depleting stockpile of ignorance and fear, and his lies are being hunted down one by one until there is nothing left for him to do but admit defeat.






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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: fastfred]
    #7838914 - 01/06/08 11:24 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I know the person that runs thedea.org, its saintjude from dancesafe. I haven't talked to him for years, but I could give 2 shits less what he says, not enough information exists to prove either theory. There's a few people on bluelight that know just as much as him and disagree with him.
Argue with the people here
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=357603
I'm done.


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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: fapjack]
    #7839067 - 01/06/08 12:17 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

<---- Complete PWNAGE of fapjack finished.

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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: fastfred]
    #7841601 - 01/06/08 09:52 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah, I'm sure all the 14 year olds and people stupid enough to listen to you are celebrating.


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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: fapjack]
    #8507490 - 06/10/08 01:56 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Dude ive been on E around hella guys never ever did i ever think of doing that shit. That means your actually gay.


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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: fastfred]
    #8508247 - 06/10/08 06:02 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:


-FF




What the, Cannabis is second only to cocaine?! Do hundreds of thousands of americans really eat too many hash cakes and ring up 119 to say "hello, yes, I think I'm dead, please get me an ambulance."


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Re: Ecstasy is a safe drug, says police chief [UK] [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #8508932 - 06/10/08 08:48 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

ya and also i bet a lot of them are from cops manditory shiznit


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